Speculation: Detroit - Buffalo?

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Friedman just casually brought it up on 32 thoughts and then just kept going. A very low reference "i don't how what going on there" and kept trucking.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Again, I’ve never suggested Rasmussen and Byrum would be traded straight-up for one another. I am suggesting they’re logically in this deal though, as they’re two names that teams are sniffing around, collecting data on. That’s IF there is a deal, and Friedman seems to think there might be.

That doesn’t mean one’s value isn’t more than fans may think, and the other’s is less than the “stat watchers”, in the media or on message boards think… when relative to each team’s needs.

We see those same “stat watchers” amazed (on this site) almost every single trade that’s made. Yet they keep over and under valuing players based on draft pedigrees, stats and computer trade machines. Lol… NOT how players traded for each other’s strengths help their new team, compared to how they used to help their old team.

It’s not a video game.

Byrum would likely make more of a difference in Detroit, because of fit and need that equals opportunity, than he helps Buffalo (with over half his points being secondary assists) being sheltered as a role player... Just as Rasmussen would help Buffalo’s need to be harder to play against. Just as Ben Chiarot would help Buffalo on the backend, more than he helps Detroit, because he’ll slide into a supporting role player, rather than being asked to do too much. His best days in Detroit, were the last 20 games last season, playing as Seider’s sidekick. Not thinking he needed to carry a pairing and turning into a turnover machine. That’s where he always gets in trouble. In Buffalo, he can play the role he’s best at. Same as if he ends up in Edmonton or back in Winnipeg as speculated.

Buffalo also always has Trade Clauses to deal with, effecting values they can receive.

That’s how scouts, evaluators and General Managers determine trade values. They can care less, where a player was drafted 5-6 years ago, or who he was traded for last season, and the most definitely don’t pull out NHL 2026 and see trade values.

Let’s not pretend Byrum continues to hold the same value he did, even last year because of stats!! If he did, he’d already have his nice new “Wealth” contract like the player he was traded for has.

Byrum’s turning 24 before he starts his next contract. 6 years removed from his draft, but YET to carry a pairing in the NHL. He’s also arbitration eligible next summer with no contract.

Teams aren’t stupid. I’ve always been a Byrum fan and definitely think he can be a “consistent” 50-60 point 2/3, but there were plenty of hockey people who thought Buffalo got robbed by Colorado in that trade last year. How Buffalo has played him, isn’t helping change those minds.

Anyone trading for Byrum today, is taking a lot more chance than Buffalo did last season. They’ll have to pony-up.

Byrum is being sheltered and protected, playing with Dahlin. They didn’t acquire him to be a role player. So if they can cash him in, for another Dman who’s not an overkill in that role, and another rostered player who helps make the Sabres harder to play against, they’ll win more hockey games.

That’s what it’s all about. Who cares about some assumed value, based on his draft status 6 years ago, what he was traded for a year ago, or what some “trade value machine” says. Managers don’t care.

Look at the Jensen/Chychrun trade. Nobody got robbed. There’s better fits now, and that’s a manager’s job. Yet the stat watchers went insane when that trade came down.

Byrum was a bad fit for Buffalo to begin with, but here they stand. He’s not taking a pair carrying role from either Dahlin or Power, but with his strengths, he should be playing with Power, feeding off of each other’s strengths, and sharing those responsibilities? Yet he’s being used as a high-end support Dman?

It’s not rocket science. Ruff knows all of this, yet isn’t giving Byrum the opportunities. Exactly why Byrum’s frustrated, if that speculation is also correct.

They acquired him to be a core piece. Not a role player. No scout or manager is watching Buffalo and ignoring that fact. They’re questioning it. Just as they’re questioning what Philly is doing with Drysdale. Another player Detroit seems to be interested in, because his skillset matches something they need desperately in their lineup.

Buffalo is more than likely going to move him. Whether that’s now or towards the draft, they haven’t locked him up. Which is an eye opener for sure.

As for Detroit and Buffalo making a deal? If management are in each other’s buildings for multiple games, the names they’re close to agreeing on, are on these current rosters.

So unless something crazy, like Larkin being traded to Buffalo, which wouldn’t be as crazy as some might think btw, it’s a good bet that Rasmussen and/or Chiarot are players Buffalo is zeroing in on, and Byrum is who Detroit is likely zeroing in on. I’m not in the business of predicting what could be added to any trade, if anything. Trades aren’t about winning and losing value. They’re about making teams better. Something those “stat watchers” never can process.

As for Cozens, it’s interesting because people closer to Buffalo think it could be Cozens and people closer to Detroit, don’t think Cozens at all.

We’ll obviously find out though.

Maybe everything we’re hearing is all BS and it’s just Krebs for Veleno. Highly doubt anyone’s picking apart (the game) of either of those two though.

These two teams are talking about something significant, if they’re gonna do something. Something that changes the makeup of their roster to help their weaknesses. Those players I’ve mentioned, fit that bill, and they all just happen to have their names “out there.”

For what it's worth Buffalo fans, I always disagree with Pete's assessment of things. I always say "there's no way Yzerman is trying to do this or that," "there's no way this player has this value or that the league sees this guy this way" and "I am watching these games and clearly this guy is talking out of his ass because if an NHL GM is watching X player and arriving at Y opinion, then he wouldn't be an NHL GM." I'm always flabbergasted. "This evaluation isn't just off, it's downright lunacy."

And then Petes is always right. When he tells you that your team is about to do something stupid because they've completely misevaluated a player, start hoping that someone exercises a NTC or a different GM steps in to take the bullet for you. I've done the song and dance long enough to just take Petes at face value. He's best friends with Kris Draper, Bob McKenzie or something. I disagree with pretty much every take he puts out there and I get burned every time.

In other words, if Rasmussen and Chiarot get traded to Winnipeg, you boys dodged a bullet.

Petes, his name is spelled Byram btw.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Friedman just casually brought it up on 32 thoughts and then just kept going. A very low reference "i don't how what going on there" and kept trucking.

Regarding Buffalo/Detroit or Buffalo scouting for something in general?

 

[Leonardo87]

Title changed.

 

[Beerz]

For what it's worth Buffalo fans, I always disagree with Pete's assessment of things. I always say "there's no way Yzerman is trying to do this or that," "there's no way this player has this value or that the league sees this guy this way" and "I am watching these games and clearly this guy is talking out of his ass because if an NHL GM is watching X player and arriving at Y opinion, then he wouldn't be an NHL GM." I'm always flabbergasted. "This evaluation isn't just off, it's downright lunacy."

And then Petes is always right. When he tells you that your team is about to do something stupid because they've completely misevaluated a player, start hoping that someone exercises a NTC or a different GM steps in to take the bullet for you. I've done the song and dance long enough to just take Petes at face value. He's best friends with Kris Draper, Bob McKenzie or something. I disagree with pretty much every take he puts out there and I get burned every time.

In other words, if Rasmussen and Chiarot get traded to Winnipeg, you boys dodged a bullet.

Petes, his name is spelled Byram btw.

I was a little iffy on believing some random internet dude and his evaluations but since a separate random internet dude has backed him up i would be a fool not to take their word.

 

[Chainshot]

I was a little iffy on believing some random internet dude and his evaluations but since a separate random internet dude has backed him up i would be a fool not to take their word.

So your just a dude, taking the word of a dude backed up by another dude? I guess this is the Sabres movie "Tropic Blunder".

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

In some of the Sabres pre-draft videos, it seemed like Buffalo really liked Kasper. It’s speculated the failed Ottawa-Buffalo trade (16 and Matt Murray for 7) was to pick Kasper. But Murray wouldn’t accept the trade to Buffalo.

I dunno that I'd trade Kasper for anything the Sabres would be willing to part with for him.

This is where I don't get these two as trade partners. They're both in similar situations. The only reason they trade is for struggling young players or for each other's excess. Detroit doesn't really have excess of anything right now.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I was a little iffy on believing some random internet dude and his evaluations but since a separate random internet dude has backed him up i would be a fool not to take their word.

He's been right about Detroit-related trades, draft picks, FA signings, etc. pretty consistently for several years now. Obviously he's not infallible but that's why we take things he says a bit more seriously than the rest of us.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I was a little iffy on believing some random internet dude and his evaluations but since a separate random internet dude has backed him up i would be a fool not to take their word.

I'm not saying Petes is one of them, but there are definitely posters in Detroit's HF subforum who know somebody in Detroit's front office.

There were a couple posters as early as a month before the 2019 draft posting that Detroit was set on drafting Seider. When asked for a source they essentially said eat shit. You wouldn't typically read much into that, if not for the fact that Seider was universally considered a reach at the time.

 

[tsujimoto74]

I'm not saying Petes is one of them, but there are definitely posters in Detroit's HF subforum who know somebody in Detroit's front office.

There were a couple posters as early as a month before the 2019 draft posting that Detroit was set on drafting Seider. When asked for a source they essentially said eat shit. You wouldn't typically read much into that, if not for the fact that Seider was universally considered a reach at the time.

I don’t think anyone doubts for a second that Detroit would love to trade their 3rd liner for a top pairing defenseman. Of f***ing course they would. That’s not how trades work.

 

[HisNoodliness]

I was a little iffy on believing some random internet dude and his evaluations but since a separate random internet dude has backed him up i would be a fool not to take their word.

I was trying to save you the work of looking through his post history. Do it, you'll see what I'm talking about.

I'm not claiming to be an insider. I don't think the Sabres and Wings are good trade partners because we both want the same thing-young good players that can help turn our team's stumbling rebuilds around. Buffalo should only want the players that Detroit needs to keep. We should only want the players that you need to keep. Would I love some lopsided trade where we add Cozens or Byram for lesser pieces? Obviously. Do I think you should do that? Of course not. And for the same reason, I'd hate a trade where we send you one of our good young pieces for a collection of lesser pieces or a struggling player that never escapes the struggle. Any trade between us is immediately lopsided because one team is necessarily misplacing their priorities.

Do I think Rasmussen is a good player, that's about to break out, and should be highly valued around the league? Of course not. He sucks. Anyone that watches him should know that he sucks. Do I think that Ben Chiarot is a good player that should be highly valued around the league? Of course not. He sucks. Anyone that watches him should know that he sucks.

If Petes is telling me that Chiarot and Rasmussen have value around GMs and hockey professionals and he's tying them to Buffalo, Winnipeg and Edmonton, then I believe him. I expect those guys to get moved to those teams and for value. Does that make any sense to me? Nope. Things can change and maybe the moves don't happen for one reason or another.

But his rate of getting things right around the Red Wings is significantly higher than really anyone else-that includes respected insiders like Friedman. Genuinely if Dreger, Friedman, Button, McKenzie, whoever tweets "Detroit is trying to do A" and at the same time Petes posts here, "Detroit won't do A, they're trying to do B," I'm expecting B. Our front office is super tight lipped. We get almost nothing from official sources. Leaks about trades we're involved in almost always come from the other team or public knowledge like "this AGM has watched five Wings games recently." Petes is genuinely the best source I know of Wings insider takes.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I don’t think anyone doubts for a second that Detroit would love to trade their 3rd liner for a top pairing defenseman. Of f***ing course they would. That’s not how trades work.

Nevermind that I clearly said I wasn't saying he was one of the guys who is "In the know", he himself clearly said he wasn't saying Rasmussen for Byram straight up.

You'd think a moderator would properly read rather than trail off into bullshit that wasn't actually being said...

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Regarding Buffalo/Detroit or Buffalo scouting for something in general?

He just said "Buffalo Detroit, I don't know what's going on there" and then said something about Yzerman not likely to swing big and then went back on what he was talking about.

 

[Fjordy]

I was trying to save you the work of looking through his post history. Do it, you'll see what I'm talking about.

I'm not claiming to be an insider. I don't think the Sabres and Wings are good trade partners because we both want the same thing-young good players that can help turn our team's stumbling rebuilds around. Buffalo should only want the players that Detroit needs to keep. We should only want the players that you need to keep. Would I love some lopsided trade where we add Cozens or Byram for lesser pieces? Obviously. Do I think you should do that? Of course not. And for the same reason, I'd hate a trade where we send you one of our good young pieces for a collection of lesser pieces or a struggling player that never escapes the struggle. Any trade between us is immediately lopsided because one team is necessarily misplacing their priorities.

Do I think Rasmussen is a good player, that's about to break out, and should be highly valued around the league? Of course not. He sucks. Anyone that watches him should know that he sucks. Do I think that Ben Chiarot is a good player that should be highly valued around the league? Of course not. He sucks. Anyone that watches him should know that he sucks.

If Petes is telling me that Chiarot and Rasmussen have value around GMs and hockey professionals and he's tying them to Buffalo, Winnipeg and Edmonton, then I believe him. I expect those guys to get moved to those teams and for value. Does that make any sense to me? Nope. Things can change and maybe the moves don't happen for one reason or another.

But his rate of getting things right around the Red Wings is significantly higher than really anyone else-that includes respected insiders like Friedman. Genuinely if Dreger, Friedman, Button, McKenzie, whoever tweets "Detroit is trying to do A" and at the same time Petes posts here, "Detroit won't do A, they're trying to do B," I'm expecting B. Our front office is super tight lipped. We get almost nothing from official sources. Leaks about trades we're involved in almost always come from the other team or public knowledge like "this AGM has watched five Wings games recently." Petes is genuinely the best source I know of Wings insider takes.

Well, I remember even Zito gave up 1st for Chiarot, which doesn't mean he's a good player, but maybe there's some vet leadership that our GM saw in it, considering we have the youngest team in the league.

Does Rasmussen really sucks? I mean, can he be a good third liner? Or is he an overpaid fourth liner?

 

[Djp]

For what it's worth Buffalo fans, I always disagree with Pete's assessment of things. I always say "there's no way Yzerman is trying to do this or that," "there's no way this player has this value or that the league sees this guy this way" and "I am watching these games and clearly this guy is talking out of his ass because if an NHL GM is watching X player and arriving at Y opinion, then he wouldn't be an NHL GM." I'm always flabbergasted. "This evaluation isn't just off, it's downright lunacy."

And then Petes is always right. When he tells you that your team is about to do something stupid because they've completely misevaluated a player, start hoping that someone exercises a NTC or a different GM steps in to take the bullet for you. I've done the song and dance long enough to just take Petes at face value. He's best friends with Kris Draper, Bob McKenzie or something. I disagree with pretty much every take he puts out there and I get burned every time.

In other words, if Rasmussen and Chiarot get traded to Winnipeg, you boys dodged a bullet.

Petes, his name is spelled Byram btw.

Will you get s cut on the sales comission?

I understand the logic in Rassmussen from BUF POV of wanting to add size given Greenway is a UFA in the summer who is smat $3M. They probably have talked extension but are far apart where they offer say $3.5M-$4M per while he might want $5M+ to resign.

His contract as a 4th liner they can handle because of ELCs they will have

Him alone for Byram is nuts.

If a trade around this would happen...

Rassmussen
Kasper
RD( Holl/Chiarot)**
For
Byram
Krebs
Jokiharju**

With prospects and/,or picks included
** could be add ons to the deal

 

[Fjordy]

He just said "Buffalo Detroit, I don't know what's going on there" and then said something about Yzerman not likely to swing big and then went back on what he was talking about.

It is obvious that Buffalo's AGM and chief scout watch Detroit games, and not just one. And it seems that Detroit's chief scout recently went to watch a Buffalo game/games. This may also end in nothing, but usually these guys do not go just to watch a specific team's games, which means that there are some conversations between Adams and Yzerman.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Will you get s cut on the sales comission?

I understand the logic in Rassmussen from BUF POV of wanting to add size given Greenway is a UFA in the summer who is smat $3M. They probably have talked extension but are far apart where they offer say $3.5M-$4M per while he might want $5M+ to resign.

His contract as a 4th liner they can handle because of ELCs they will have

Him alone for Byram is nuts.

If a trade around this would happen...

Rassmussen
Kasper
RD( Holl/Chiarot)**
For
Byram
Krebs
Jokiharju**

With prospects and/,or picks included
** could be add ons to the deal

Not that BUF would do this, but the problem with trading Kasper for Byram is it fixes Detroit's left side but sends their future center depth back to hell.

Even if Danielson pans out as a Top 6 center there's nothing behind him and Larkin.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

Well, I remember even Zito gave up 1st for Chiarot, which doesn't mean he's a good player, but maybe there's some vet leadership that our GM saw in it, considering we have the youngest team in the league.

Does Rasmussen really sucks? I mean, can he be a good third liner? Or is he an overpaid fourth liner?

it's hard to say because we've never seen him play for a coach not named lalonde or blashill. january could change the perception of several detroit players under mclellan

even if he stays what he's been, rasmussen is a huge, sometimes physically imposing winger that can play anywhere he's needed in the lineup. i wouldn't be surprised to see him get an extended look next to larkin and raymond if veleno falls off

 

[HisNoodliness]

Well, I remember even Zito gave up 1st for Chiarot, which doesn't mean he's a good player, but maybe there's some vet leadership that our GM saw in it, considering we have the youngest team in the league.

Does Rasmussen really sucks? I mean, can he be a good third liner? Or is he an overpaid fourth liner?

Personally I think Ras is a third/fourth line tweener. When he's physically engaged, he can be very strong along the boards for stripping pucks defensively or setting up the cycle in the offensive zone. On rare occasions he flashes real stick skill, a nice shot and solid net front pigeoning. Those moments make you think that he could be a top 6 player but his skating is too weak to effectively carry the puck himself or to put himself in the positions that he does well in. That holds him back from the top of the lineup even at the very best of times.

At the worst of times, he turns into a deer in the headlights. Always behind the play and easily toppled by harder, smaller players. He looks on with the confused dazed expression of a man coming down from tripping way too hard, as players on the other team easily outplay him and outwork him. If he's not physically engaged and looking to manhandle everyone, he's damn near useless. He spends about 70% of the time useless like that. 25% of the time as the effective, engaged third liner (normally after someone on the other team does something dirty to enrage him-you're hoping that a new team gets this guy all the time, I'd be very surprised), and maybe 5% of the time flashing the qualities that made him a top ten draft pick. It's that 5% that makes Petes say he's on the verge of breaking out, but frankly it's a terrible take.

 

[Beerz]

I was trying to save you the work of looking through his post history. Do it, you'll see what I'm talking about.

I'm not claiming to be an insider. I don't think the Sabres and Wings are good trade partners because we both want the same thing-young good players that can help turn our team's stumbling rebuilds around. Buffalo should only want the players that Detroit needs to keep. We should only want the players that you need to keep. Would I love some lopsided trade where we add Cozens or Byram for lesser pieces? Obviously. Do I think you should do that? Of course not. And for the same reason, I'd hate a trade where we send you one of our good young pieces for a collection of lesser pieces or a struggling player that never escapes the struggle. Any trade between us is immediately lopsided because one team is necessarily misplacing their priorities.

Do I think Rasmussen is a good player, that's about to break out, and should be highly valued around the league? Of course not. He sucks. Anyone that watches him should know that he sucks. Do I think that Ben Chiarot is a good player that should be highly valued around the league? Of course not. He sucks. Anyone that watches him should know that he sucks.

If Petes is telling me that Chiarot and Rasmussen have value around GMs and hockey professionals and he's tying them to Buffalo, Winnipeg and Edmonton, then I believe him. I expect those guys to get moved to those teams and for value. Does that make any sense to me? Nope. Things can change and maybe the moves don't happen for one reason or another.

But his rate of getting things right around the Red Wings is significantly higher than really anyone else-that includes respected insiders like Friedman. Genuinely if Dreger, Friedman, Button, McKenzie, whoever tweets "Detroit is trying to do A" and at the same time Petes posts here, "Detroit won't do A, they're trying to do B," I'm expecting B. Our front office is super tight lipped. We get almost nothing from official sources. Leaks about trades we're involved in almost always come from the other team or public knowledge like "this AGM has watched five Wings games recently." Petes is genuinely the best source I know of Wings insider takes.

Trust me.. you don't have to worry about me rummaging thru his posts haha..

I have no doubt that Yyzerman is looking to move Rasmussen/Chariot or both .. and it wouldn't surprise me if they get some value back.. but "value" is subjective and pretty vague. He started out the whole thing by referencing Byram and Rasmussen saying people will be surprised by Rasmussen value..he has since walked that back but I can guarantee you that even our idiot GM wouldn't mold a trade around Byram and Rasmussen... Rasmussen would be a throw in on a package for Byram.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I doubt Yzerman is looking to move Chiarot unless he's got a Top 4 LHD coming back.

Like him or not, he's still going to be their preferred choice over AlJo or Wallinder right now.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Trust me.. you don't have to worry about me rummaging thru his posts haha..

I have no doubt that Yyzerman is looking to move Rasmussen/Chariot or both .. and it wouldn't surprise me if they get some value back.. but "value" is subjective and pretty vague. He started out the whole thing by referencing Byram and Rasmussen saying people will be surprised by Rasmussen value..he has since walked that back but I can guarantee you that even our idiot GM wouldn't mold a trade around Byram and Rasmussen... Rasmussen would be a throw in on a package for Byram.

Yeah he didn't ever say it would be Ras for Byram 1 for 1 and he hasn't really nailed down what the adds would be, so perhaps both of you are right. Perhaps Ras gets moved to Buffalo as a throw in for a bigger deal. I'm more just warning you, from personal experience, that everytime I've said "Yzerman would never do this thing that Petes said he's going to do" I've been wrong. In your position I would start mentally preparing myself to add Rasmussen and/or Chiarot and to find out that they inexplicably have a lot more value than they should.

 

[Fjordy]

Yeah he didn't ever say it would be Ras for Byram 1 for 1 and he hasn't really nailed down what the adds would be, so perhaps both of you are right. Perhaps Ras gets moved to Buffalo as a throw in for a bigger deal. I'm more just warning you, from personal experience, that everytime I've said "Yzerman would never do this thing that Petes said he's going to do" I've been wrong. In your position I would start mentally preparing myself to add Rasmussen and/or Chiarot and to find out that they inexplicably have a lot more value than they should.

Who is Petes?

 

[tsujimoto74]

Nevermind that I clearly said I wasn't saying he was one of the guys who is "In the know", he himself clearly said he wasn't saying Rasmussen for Byram straight up.

You'd think a moderator would properly read rather than trail off into bullshit that wasn't actually being said...

Even just framing it as "Rasmussen+ for Byram" suggests that Rasmussen is the biggest piece that would be going to Buffalo, which makes no sense. Rasmussen would be a "plus". The idea is that far off the mark. There certainly is some bullshit being said.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Even just framing it as "Rasmussen+ for Byram" suggests that Rasmussen is the biggest piece that would be going to Buffalo, which makes no sense. Rasmussen would be a "plus". The idea is that far off the mark. There certainly is some bullshit being said.

... This is also not what he said.