Details Surrounding Nazem Kadri Trade

[SmoggyTwinkles]

In his new book "Dreamer: My Life On The Edge" Nazem Kadri goes into detail about the circumstances around the trade that saw him leave Toronto. Suffice to say then GM Kyle Dubas and the rest of the Leafs brass at the time come out looking pretty duplicitous.

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https://x.com/i/web/status/1849183278177149178

Now I'm not going to front, I wanted Kadri dealt after his second straight playoff suspension. However, the way with which the Leafs went about doing it is so scummy. Why lie to the guy and say he's still part of the future here when you were planning to deal him? Why are Calgary players and management brought in to try and convince him to waive his NTC? You're own players get confused and the guy you lied to has to cover your ass? And all this when the dude's wife is about to have a kid and thinks he's not going anywhere.

All this secrecy and sneaking to ultimately rush a trade for Tyson Barrie and Alex Kerfoot.

The awesome thing is he vetoe's the Calgary trade, wins a cup with the Av's, then signs a monster contract with Calgary.

Not bad Kadri, not bad!

 

[Rare Jewel]

Well, this thread is going about how I figured...


What I would say is that this whole Kadri hurt the team thing, while not incorrect, seemingly fails to acknowledge that no one else had the balls to do anything against Boston, so instead of playing tough as a team, it just manifested as an explosive and bad hit made out of frustration in 2018.

The fact that management didn't realize this address was another mark against them for failing to realize the causality of the first event.

 

[Voodoo Child]

Eh...

We did come out on the short end of that trade, both due to Kadri and Dubas, and he did go on to win a Cup.

But would you want to be paying him 7 until he's 39? I wouldn't.

Likewise it sucks that his wife was due at the time, but he had the resources to hire cross-country movers and fly his wife and newborn baby private to Colorado.

It could have been handled better on either side but it's not really an issue, I still with him success.

 

[notbias]

Well, this thread is going about how I figured...


What I would say is that this whole Kadri hurt the team thing, while not incorrect, seemingly fails to acknowledge that no one else had the balls to do anything against Boston, so instead of playing tough as a team, it just manifested as an explosive and bad hit made out of frustration in 2018.

The fact that management didn't realize this address was another mark against them for failing to realize the causality of the first event.

There are options between doing nothing and cross-checking someone in the face.

They've added "tough guys" every year...

 

[HockeyVirus]

Not to interrupt the Dubas hate, but isn't it possible he regrets how he handled that and was still pretty new as a GM when that happened? I would be surprised if Dubas today handled it the same as 2nd year as a GM with market pressure to make big changes Dubas.

 

[Rare Jewel]

There are options between doing nothing and cross-checking someone in the face.

They've added "tough guys" every year...

Yeah, one guy, though, and the rest of the team is getting bullied...


Who were these "tough guys?"

 

[notbias]

Yeah, one guy, though, and the rest of the team is getting bullied...


Who were these tough guys?

Simmonds and Clifford both were on the team for multiple years.

Who was going to fight Debrusk? He doesn't fight, so the answer is no one.

There are ways to react to dirty plays or getting bullied, and cross-checking someone in the face is likely the dumbest.

Kadri got suspended because he is a hothead, he should have just forced him to fight if he thought it was the answer.

Kadri being upset is understandable, and I think the suspension was over the top, those are all things I agree with, but he still is the reason he got suspended.

 

[therealkoho]

Not to interrupt the Dubas hate, but isn't it possible he regrets how he handled that and was still pretty new as a GM when that happened? I would be surprised if Dubas today handled it the same as 2nd year as a GM with market pressure to make big changes Dubas.

Yeah true I suppose, but even with that hindsight he still had the balls to ask for 5m per supposedly, lie bald faced to the media, play the crying game regarding his poor poor wife and lil chillun,as the hard done by guy, and then trot off to Pittsburgh forgetting about the wife and kidd, meanwhile poaching a couple of guys in the process, lord knows what he told them he could do for them as team prez?

 

[Dekes For Days]

There are options between doing nothing and cross-checking someone in the face.

He'd also been getting suspended since 2013, and continued to get suspended in the playoffs in Colorado. People trying to pretend like it's a team composition thing is hilarious.

 

[therealkoho]

There are options between doing nothing and cross-checking someone in the face.

They've added "tough guys" every year...

Yes they have, but for those that knew the answer was team toughness meant more then just having a Sherman tank in the lineup As was stated over and over again.

Instead we get Denis Malgin, Tyson Barrie and a host of others who have turtle in their 23 and me!

 

[notbias]

Yes they have, but for those that knew the answer was team toughness meant more then just having a Sherman tank in the lineup As was stated over and over again.

Instead we get Denis Malgin, Tyson Barrie and a host of others who have turtle in their 23 and me!

The answer to our scoring problems every playoff is team toughness? Nope.

You also left off Lub, Muzzin, McCabe, ROR, Acciari, Clifford, Simmonds, Foligno, etc

 

[Rare Jewel]

Simmonds and Clifford both were on the team for multiple years.

And, which one of those guys was there in the 2019 series against Boston?

Who was going to fight Debrusk? He doesn't fight, so the answer is no one.

There are ways to react to dirty plays or getting bullied, and cross-checking someone in the face is likely the dumbest.

It's not about fighting; it's about general play. There's a heightened level of aggressivity in the playoffs (particularly against the Bruins) that KD couldn't get his head around.

 

[therealkoho]

The answer to our scoring problems every playoff is team toughness? Nope.

You also left off Lub, Muzzin, McCabe, ROR, Acciari, Clifford, Simmonds, Foligno, etc

If and it's a big one, if we bang their primary scoring harder than they bang ours it should follow that they will eventually lose the will to play through the gauntlet and get to the middle of the ice, which allows us access to theirs.

But and it's also a big one it has to start at the top. Even the mice need to kick the elephant in the shins however many times it takes to make the elephant think it just isn't worth the pain

 

[notbias]

It's not about fighting; it's about general play. There's a heightened level of aggressivity in the playoffs (particularly against the Bruins) that KD couldn't get his head around.

100% agree, it is why the toughest teams always win... oh wait, that's not true.

Bruins were not the tougher team or more aggressive last year and they beat us...

If and it's a big one, if we bang their primary scoring harder than they bang ours it should follow that they will eventually lose the will to play through the gauntlet and get to the middle of the ice, which allows us access to theirs.

Do you think hitting someone is supposed to deter them from playing?

The physical players we acquired wouldn't be playing against top players, let alone catching up to them and hitting them.

 

[therealkoho]

100% agree, it is why the toughest teams always win... oh wait, that's not true.

Bruins were not the tougher team or more aggressive last year and they beat us...



Do you think hitting someone is supposed to deter them from playing?

The physical players we acquired wouldn't be playing against top players, let alone catching up to them and hitting them.

Last I looked Marchand Pasta and whoever has been the centre have been absolute killers, same with Tampa and Florida's top lines. They have all outscored their individual opposition, not because they're extraordinarily skilled or nice it's because they hammer, grind and out dirty the opponent.

So yeah hitting is a deterrent.

Ron Murphy once told me that the Hodge Esposito, Murphy line scored not just because they at that time were not only the biggest line in the NHL but also willing at all times to do whatever they had to do to make space for themselves. They also got crazier and close to unstoppable when Cashman was substituted in for Murph.

Hockey has always been a game of intimidation and skill, in that order

 

[notbias]

Last I looked Marchand Pasta and whoever has been the centre have been absolute killers, same with Tampa and Florida's top lines. They have all outscored their individual opposition, not because they're extraordinarily skilled or nice it's because they hammer, grind and out dirty the opponent.

So yeah hitting is a deterrent.

Ron Murphy once told me that the Hodge Esposito, Murphy line scored not just because they at that time were not only the biggest line in the NHL but also willing at all times to do whatever they had to do to make space for themselves. They also got crazier and close to unstoppable when Cashman was substituted in for Murph.

Hockey has always been a game of intimidation and skill, in that order

Ya, I am not concerned with what an NHL player said in the 60's about today's game.

 

[Rare Jewel]

100% agree, it is why the toughest teams always win... oh wait, that's not true.

Bruins were not the tougher team or more aggressive last year and they beat us...

Not what I said at all, but okay.


Anyway, toughness isn't defined as just a physical attribute; this team has had neither physical nor, possibly more importantly, no emotional or psychological toughness.

Boston had both in 2018 and 2019, and last year, more of the latter; however, that is still subjective because I didn't find the Leafs particularly more psychical than Boston last year, but that ever makes you feel better, I suppose...

 

[notbias]

Not what I said at all, but okay.


Anyway, toughness isn't defined as just a physical attribute; this team has had neither physical nor, possibly more importantly, no emotional or psychological toughness.

Boston had both in 2018 and 2019, and last year, more of the latter; however, that is still subjective because I didn't find the Leafs particularly more psychical than Boston last year, but that ever makes you feel better, I suppose...

Throwing out random things that can't be measured makes this conversation pointless.

Give me the stats of every players mental toughness and then we can decide who had more.

 

[1specter]

I don't think anyone ever questioned Kadri's passion for being a Leaf... it was his inability to keep his game in check when the emotions got high. You can't hit Tommy Wingels when he's on his knees, facing the boards.... and you cannot cross check a guy in the face, especially not if you're Nazem Kadri with a long list of disciplinary action.

Yeah, it was a stupid trade, but you look at just how good that Leafs team was the year they had Tavares (47 goals), Matthews and Kadri up the middle.... the matchup problems that trio created for Boston... and how neutered the lineup became after the suspension, and you can't really blame them for deciding it was time to move on.

Except you can, other players do stuff like this and face no repercussions for said behaviour.







This is what I mean that a bunch of folks here don't seem to get, when they blame it all on Kadri saying that he was just a selfish player or an undisciplined hothead etc. Bennett, Marchand, Wilson etc have done some really egregious things that have been just as bad if not worse, and have received far less punishment in return. The league's lack of consistency with these things created an imbalance and it seemed like Kadri got targeted more, perhaps because he was also a Leaf on the biggest stage with the most attention, and in general what seems to be Parros' dislike for this team.

What made Naz unique was that he played with passion and intensity, and that was what gave him an edge and made him an invaluable player. He towed that line, but everyone wants a guy like that on their team. What really 'neutered' the team in the end was removing a cost controlled piece who was beloved in the room and had that extra edge, and not only did the Leafs lose that element but in the process Dubas also ripped out a key leader of the team and a heart and soul guy and brought in another soft, defensively weak guy on an expiring deal as the primary piece coming back. You guys wanted Kadri to not play with this element, but then it would neuter him overall and remove that extra juice that made him who he was.

Well, this thread is going about how I figured...


What I would say is that this whole Kadri hurt the team thing, while not incorrect, seemingly fails to acknowledge that no one else had the balls to do anything against Boston, so instead of playing tough as a team, it just manifested as an explosive and bad hit made out of frustration in 2018.

The fact that management didn't realize this address was another mark against them for failing to realize the causality of the first event.

Yup, this is exactly what I'm trying to convey. Do I wish Naz had just dropped the gloves instead? Yes, but it seemed like out of our star / impact players, the onus was always on him to be the sparkplug and guy who asserted physicality. The only other one who would step in at times would be Morgan Rielly. The culture here has been embarrassing and it was propagated by management and coaching. They tell the team to 'play clean' and not get penalized, but when they realized this approach made them too soft, they then wanted them to mix it up more and get more physically involved, and tried to do this by bringing in replacement level bruisers to round out the edges of the roster with Simmonds, Clifford etc or making deadline acquisitions like Foligno who weren't part of the team's nucleus. But then you watch in scrums where Matthews, Marner, Nylander, JT don't stand up for themselves or just show a spine. I am not asking these guys to fight or even be a dirty thug like Marchand, but simply just show some f***ing backbone. Stamkos / Kuch / Point weren't afraid to get involved or be agitating despite their smaller size and being branded as skilled players. Ovi, Sid, MacK etc as well learned to fight back and not shy away from the physicality of the game. It is important to establish that identity and show that you won't get pushed around easily, every single team that has won has pretty much had this element. You don't need to be goons or fighters, just play with some god damn pride.

People blamed Kadri, demanded he be traded etc, then they clamor for the exact same qualities and type of player he was later on when they saw how gutless this group was.

 

[Rare Jewel]

Throwing out random things that can't be measured makes this conversation pointless.

Give me the stats of every players mental toughness and then we can decide who had more.

Why do you need stats to have a conversation? Can't we go off what we saw and continued to see under KD?

Are four first-round exits and a feeble second-round exit under KD, not good enough indications that the team's mentality relative to talent wasn't sufficient?

You did say in a prior post that "tough guys" were acquired, so what's the issue?

 

[hotpaws]

Not to interrupt the Dubas hate, but isn't it possible he regrets how he handled that and was still pretty new as a GM when that happened? I would be surprised if Dubas today handled it the same as 2nd year as a GM with market pressure to make big changes Dubas.

sorry to interrupt the Dubas love in and while anything is possible you'd have to be the stick handler or very biased level Dubas worshipper to continue to believe his golly g schtick after his last presser as a Leaf that led him to be fired as well as trying to back stab the guy he owes his career too

and the Dumpster's problem isn't that he was inexperienced it's that he was and still is incompetent

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

He always did this... people just need to make him out to be something he is not to make it easier to hate him.

He was pretty bad at it. Muzzin is the only effective one he brought in who was here for a while under him. The problems with Dubas were twofold. First, he failed to identify toughness that was useful, either getting guys too old or just plain not good. Second, the Leafs didn't value toughness and pushed a pacifist mentality so that even when those guys were brought in they were joining a club that never engaged physically, so what was the point? You bring in Nick Foligno and one of his first games Keefe is telling him not to fight? The toughness Dubas brought in did not adequately fit or replace what we lost over his time here.


Here's a look at how Dubas handled toughness during his 5 seasons at the helm:

2018-19 Komarov and Martin were lost and while I get that they're bottom-six players and some might not value what they brought, their games are valued and they played a role on Islanders teams that went deeper in the playoffs than this franchise has in decades. Polak was also lost that season too, leaving us with a soft D-Corps until Muzzin was brought in. Kadri is on an island, tries to do too much against a Boston that was just bullying us and the rest is history.

2019-20 Even more toughness is lost with the Kadri trade, which would be fine if it was a good trade but it very much wasn't. We got a terrible fit in Charmin-soft Barrie and a tweener in Kerfoot. He attached Clifford to the Campbell trade but had to trade Moore to do it so at best that's a wash. Leafs had their worst season of the Matthews era, though that's not entirely because of a lack of toughness. Babcock was a jackass and as a whole the team was just worse off. Also this was the season of the infamous Marchment for Malgin trade, a microcosm of Dubas' philosophy and blind spot.

2020-21 He brings in a past his prime Simmonds and signs Bogosian and Vesey to one year deals for bottom pair and middle six grit. Simmonds was cooked, Vesey didn't find a place here and was waiver fodder, and Bogosian was good, fair play there. The Nash trade on it's own is ok but bringing in an old and injury-prone Foligno to essentially block any chance of regular season playing time because of the cap was terrible, not to mention Foligno was just bad. These moves also didn't work because these guys were basically mercenaries with expiring contracts. If there's no real will from the core guys or coaching staff to mix it up or fight back why should they? I know Foligno and Simmonds tried but it wasn't enough. He does have the sense to draft Knies.

2021-22 Out the door goes Hyman, Bogosian, Foligno, and Nash. Simmonds is re-signed to be an enforcer but he was the least effective toughness. Bunting and Ritchie are signed and while Bunting isn't strong or tough he at least plays like an agitator and got in opponents faces. Ritchie just sucked. He trades for Lyubushkin but that's it on the toughness front. This season was probably the softest the forward group had ever been. Kerfoot, Mikheyev, Engvall, Kase, and Kampf were all the same type of temperament and similar playstyle and they littered the bottom nine. Bunting was a rat, Spezza had heart, and Simmonds tried to enforce but that was nowhere near enough. Dubas signs McMann to an NHL deal at the end of the year.

2022-23 Lyubushkin is out, no great loss. Dubas does a bit of work around the edges, bringing in Aube-Kubel and Aston-Reese for the bottom six (only one of those guys worked out) and Benn for defensive depth. There's some softness subtraction with Mikheyev and Kase leaving but he makes sure to give Malgin one more shot to try and show that there was something there now that Marchment has taken off elsewhere. Malgin experiment fails and he's traded for depth. Things look to be more of the same old same old until Dubas pulls off the biggest TDL this franchise has seen since 2003, bringing in O'Reilly, Acciari, McCabe, Lafferty, Schenn, and Gustaffson. The first five guys all played with an edge and brought more to the table than just run of the mill pugilism. O'Reilly was a 2C, Acciari was a defensively sound 3rd line wrecking ball, McCabe was a tough top four defenseman, Lafferty was a gritty 4C penalty-killer, and Schenn was a heavy third pairing defenseman that blossomed into more here and played on the top pair with Rielly. Knies is also promoted and helps fill the hole left by Hyman.

None of the toughness Dubas tried to bring in beforehand outside of Muzzin even came close to the quality that he found that trade deadline. 4 previous seasons he couldn't identify any gritty players who fit well and played outside of the bottom pair or 4th line. It's absurd but it's true. This came at a great cost mind you but it led to the only series win this franchise has seen.

Now with Treliving we've got a defence that's full of mean SOBs with McCabe, OEL, and Benoit. The forward group has a good amount of physicality and nastiness that can actually play with Knies, McMann, Domi, Lorentz, and Dewar. Reaves isn't in the ideal playoff lineup but there's something to be said about his reputation and the camaraderie he brings. Dubas brought in Clifford and Simmonds so it's not like he was completely against enforcers himself.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

sorry to interrupt the Dubas love in and while anything is possible you'd have to be the stick handler or very biased level Dubas worshipper to continue to believe his golly g schtick after his last presser as a Leaf that led him to be fired as well as trying to back stab the guy he owes his career too

and the Dumpster's problem isn't that he was inexperienced it's that he was and still is incompetent

I don't know if this is true, but I enjoy imagining that it is:

Shanny had a contract for Dubas, Dubas apparently was going to sign this contract but instead when he met Shanny the next day he decided he wanted more money and a private jet for himself, and Shanny pointed at the door and that was it.

No, let me pretend this is 100% true!

 

[1specter]

I’m not surprised you think kadri sucked.

Barrie didn’t suck in Colorado, I never said that. What I’m getting at is that it was an unnecessary and short sighted move with one of our best trade chips, it’s almost exactly the same as the stupid as hell Karlsson move.

This wasn’t needed, we had Rielly and we didn’t need another powerplay qb who had no semblance of physicality or a defensive game. Rielly was coming off a 20G 72P season and was solid in the playoffs. Muzzin was more than enough for PP2.

If Barrie worked here, we couldn’t afford him. If Barrie didn’t work here, it was a waste of an incredible asset

Love the no mention on kerfoot, you must agree how awful he was then.

Kadri still produced at roughly a .5ppg playing with the likes of Connor brown and Leo komorav. Had we tried him on the wing or with better wingers he could’ve had even more success. Not surprising he went on to be great for Colorado in the playoffs. Over a point per game in 3 years and 30+ games for the team with a cup.

Well said. The few Dubas defenders that are left have tried to spin every angle possible to STILL justify this trade and not simply just accept that this trade sucked ass from day one. (And don't anyone dare accuse me of liking the trade when it was made or wanting Naz to be traded ever, because that was never the case, go back and look at my post history if you want)

Stages of coping:
1. Trade is made - Barrie is a way better fit for this team and solves our issue with right handed D, what a great and genius acquisition!!! And Kerfoot is a perfect 3C replacement too! Kadri didn't fit and needed to be traded!!!

2. Barrie stinks up the joint on both ends of the ice, Babcock gets fired - "Babcock didn't use him right, it was bad coaching! Keefe will use him better." To their credit, this part was at least somewhat true, Babcock hated Barrie and deployed him poorly, but it ignores that Barrie was inherently flawed as well and needed very specific and sheltered usage to find success.

3. Barrie's offensive numbers and usage improve, but he continues to be ass juice defensively and then completely useless in the playoffs in every facet (0 pts in 5 games) - Still blaming Babcock, shift the narrative to how we at least have Kerfoot (even though he wasn't even trusted to play full time 3C)

4. Dubas comes to his senses, doesn't bother extending Barrie, and instead uses the money on extending Muzzin and signing Brodie - "See, Dubas actually wanted Brodie first instead of Barrie but it was Naz's fault for exercising his NTC on Calgary, but now Dubas got his guy! It worked out!"

5. Leafs choke in embarrassing fashion 3-1 to Habs, but Kadri gets suspended again - "See, trading Kadri was for the best!!!! Kerfoot played well in the playoffs too, and look at his regular season P/60!!"

6. Kadri has a career year @ 4.5M and is a key contributor to a Stanley Cup while Leafs get eliminated in rd 1 yet again - "Kadri got himself traded, it was his fault! Look at Kerfoot's P/60, he is just as good even though he doesn't actually play C anymore and is a passenger on the second line!! Kadri was never good here in the playoffs anyways!!"

Now all they can do is grasp at Kadri's suspensions and say he doesn't take accountability while ignoring the deep rooted problems with this team's identity and construction, or why Kadri ended up in those situations. They solely put all the blame on him and don't ever criticize that Dubas did a very poor job assessing what this team ACTUALLY needed, which was not a small, soft sheltered offensive-minded D. Value for value, it was a bad trade plain and simple and aged horribly as Kadri continues to have a good career while Barrie is barely hanging on in the league. Ironically they are now on the same team, Naz got the last laugh at least.

The trade at the time targeted Brodie and Barrie whom were both one year out from UFA as well as a secondary 3C piece in Jankowski (who is barely NHL in a good year) and Kerfoot, who was what he was.

So it was engineered as a very superficial 2 for 1 in any permutation with the idea of securing some short term D help with no regard for long term blueline construction, and just a planned C downgrade. Factor in the minimum cost difference in AAV to the contract they signed Kerfoot to ($3.5 million vs $4.5 million), you can easily see the thought process and... there wasn't any genius then and there isn't any in hindsight.

This is an excellent post and one of the best takeaways in the entire thread. Inherently, we were always going to lose this trade given that you were trading Kadri when his value was lower and also giving him away with 3 years left on an excellent cost controlled deal. The highest upside was with Nazem and he proved it. One thing that also gets missed is that Kerfoot never even ended up being the solution at 3C and eventually he became an awkward fitting player that couldn't find a permanent role and instead floated around the middle six, mostly playing winger.

 

[hotpaws]

I don't know if this is true, but I enjoy imagining that it is:

Shanny had a contract for Dubas, Dubas apparently was going to sign this contract but instead when he met Shanny the next day he decided he wanted more money and a private jet for himself, and Shanny pointed at the door and that was it.

No, let me pretend this is 100% true!

that's pretty much what happened , lol

what i would like to know considering the reports/rumors of the Shanny and Dumpster relationship souring during the reg season is was it Shanny that wanted to extend Dumpster or was it the board that wanted to bring him back until he pulled his douche move