Despite major challanges, Kyle Dubas has passed the tests

[Hoglund4MvP]

You think that if there was better trade available they would have done the worst? It is pretty safe to assume that we explored every possible option there was. Dubas like his first round picks.

Marleaus third year was big mistake in first place. It meant that someone had to pay real money for that his not playing for us.

I was pretty sure back then that we have to "forfeit" that season. Since with Marleau we had no room to build good enough team.

In hindsight it's easy to say from here that it would have been ok with bubble playoffs and everything.

Hindsight is the only way you can evaluate a trade? You think we will know who wins the Hagel trade until we have hindsight 5-6 years from now to help us?

I've provided more than enough fact to fairly say we could have saved our 1st round pick with some better planning, so you claiming "It is pretty safe to assume that we explored every possible option there was. Dubas like his first round picks" is way more more cheating than me bringing in some hindsight. To claim my whole post is based off hindsight is also not true.

If he likes his 1st rounders so much explain to me Foligno? We just lost our 1st for Marleau what are we doing being so irresponsible with Foligno?

 

[BrannigansLaw]

He may have addressed all his major challanges but I'm still waiting for him to get to the challenges. Namely the first round thing.

I like how the typo was never corrected though. Gives you a sense of the logic you can find in here.

 

[Felix the Cat Potvin]

In any case problem was Marleau that was so bad dead weight that it basicly made competing for Cup impossible.

Pittsburgh paid a 2nd/3rd round pick to acquire Marleau from SJ for their Cup run. Marleau's cap hit was an issue, but he was still a competent NHLer in that 3rd year.

Meanwhile, Carolina adds Seth Jarvis, who could have been an immense help to our persistent issues with secondary scoring.

Well of course Carolina in taking on Marleau's contract sacrificed their present for the future... or no wait, that year, we lost in the play-in round while Carolina swept the Rangers in the play-in round.

 

[Mess]

5 years ago people here would of laughed at you for saying that, today, they defend it wholeheartedly.

If Dudas knew he would achieve so little, and fail miserably, and it would take so long to win a single playoff series (like that is some great achievement in and of itself), would he have signed Leafs transitional generational franchise player Matthews to just 5 years and blew straight thru 3 and into 4, or would he have secured Leafs most precious resource and maybe best player in franchise history to 8 full years to protect the Leafs franchise from potential loss at age 27?

 

[Leaf Fans]

Should be watching

Perhaps he did. Free agency is in a couple of weeks. It is likely that he has at least had a look. Besides, why wouldn't he watch the Final.

 

[Trapper]

If Dudas knew he would achieve so little, and fail miserably, and it would take so long to win a single playoff series (like that is some great achievement in and of itself), would he have signed Leafs transitional generational franchise player Matthews to just 5 years and blew straight thru 3 and into 4, or would he have secured Leafs most precious resource and maybe best player in franchise history to 8 full years to protect the Leafs franchise from potential loss at age 27?

Dubas actual structured all 3 (Matthews,Marner,Nylander) to be UFA as soon as possible.

We have 2 years until we start the next phase of UFA contracts. Zero playoff wins and no draft pick since Matthews assuming a primary role.

 

[deprw]

Hindsight is the only way you can evaluate a trade? You think we will know who wins the Hagel trade until we have hindsight 5-6 years from now to help us?

I've provided more than enough fact to fairly say we could have saved our 1st round pick with some better planning, so you claiming "It is pretty safe to assume that we explored every possible option there was. Dubas like his first round picks" is way more more cheating than me bringing in some hindsight. To claim my whole post is based off hindsight is also not true.

If he likes his 1st rounders so much explain to me Foligno? We just lost our 1st for Marleau what are we doing being so irresponsible with Foligno?

Well you actually don't know what our front office have been doing. Like said I think since this was major issue they explored different options. Including value of Kap and Johnsson. Our cap situation put us into situation where we couldn't demand proper price for either. They could have been offer sheeted and we couldn't have matched. So either you trade two assets for bad value or Marleau and keep the assets. We got first for Kapanen next summer.

If we did we couldn't have matched offer sheet for Marner because of the cap. It was complicated situation all along.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

Well you actually don't know what our front office have been doing. Like said I think since this was major issue they explored different options. Including value of Kap and Johnsson. Our cap situation put us into situation where we couldn't demand proper price for either. They could have been offer sheeted and we couldn't have matched. So either you trade two assets for bad value or Marleau and keep the assets. We got first for Kapanen next summer.

If we did we couldn't have matched offer sheet for Marner because of the cap. It was complicated situation all along.

You just told me Dubas loves his first round picks so why does our cap situation stop him from getting some picks for AJ and/or Kap whose value was high at the time? I also don't agree our season would have been a write off if we had to go with Marleau. It would have just been scary to drop AJ and Kap as depth but the team would have still been good enough to figure it out. Use some of the AJ/Kap assets at the deadline too maybe.

I don't know what our front office was doing no, but I at least use fact and reason to say why something else could have happened. You just say that all possible options were explored with zero proof and consider it correct even though you have no idea what front office was doing either.

 

[deprw]

You just told me Dubas loves his first round picks so why does our cap situation stop him from getting some picks for AJ and/or Kap whose value was high at the time? I also don't agree our season would have been a write off if we had to go with Marleau. It would have just been scary to drop AJ and Kap as depth but the team would have still been good enough to figure it out. Use some of the AJ/Kap assets at the deadline too maybe.

I don't know what our front office was doing no, but I at least use fact and reason to say why something else could have happened. You just say that all possible options were explored with zero proof and consider it correct even though you have no idea what front office was doing either.

Value wasn't high because they could have been offer sheeted by any team with Marleau in our roster after buyout window closed. So it was wise for other teams to wait. If we didn't sort out Marleau first we would have been in trouble.

Why we didn't do that during previous season? We were contending.

So it was either those players dumped or Marleau traded. Like said they probably didn't want to pay that first rounder but it was best poison there was. Most complete roster and you could kept players you want. Rather than keeping that first and maybe drafting lesser player than Kapanen or Johnsson.

It is pretty stupid to assume they didn't explore every option. Like said offer sheet threat prevented good trades for Kapanen. Who we traded for first later on and had hopes that he could really break trough.

We have traded two firsts. So it isn't something we prefer. Foligno trade was risky and it blew up on us. Should have kept that first but it was season to go all-in.

 

[TorMapleJays]

Turn the clock back 4 years to when Dubas was hired as GM, after the Leafs lost to Boston in 7 games in round #1.

He was handed the keys to a 105 point franchise best team that included 5 X high-end core players all drafted top 10 and under age 25 ..

Kadri (7th), Reilly (5th), Nylander (8th), Marner (4th) and of course a franchise #1C in Matthews (#1 OA)

Can anyone imagine that if you asked any Leaf fan, how many years do you think it will take for Dubas to win a single playoff round?

If you knew the answer to that question was guaranteed to be at least 5 years, no sooner and maybe even longer, the conclusion would be almost unanimous that this guy isn't qualified to be an NHL GM.

Now flash back to today, and let reality sink in, because here we are, no further progress since the day he arrived and answer how many test he has passed.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

Value wasn't high because they could have been offer sheeted by any team with Marleau in our roster after buyout window closed. So it was wise for other teams to wait. If we didn't sort out Marleau first we would have been in trouble.

.....this makes no sense to the topic. Compensation for money they were looking for is a 2nd rounder. We could have ran the risk knowing worst case we get a 2nd rounder if we can't get a 1st.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

It is pretty stupid to assume they didn't explore every option.

You are not doing good job showing me why so maybe chill out using the word stupid

 

[Bomber0104]

Turn the clock back 4 years to when Dubas was hired as GM, after the Leafs lost to Boston in 7 games in round #1.

He was handed the keys to a 105 point franchise best team that included 5 X high-end core players all drafted top 10 and under age 25 ..

Kadri (7th), Reilly (5th), Nylander (8th), Marner (4th) and of course a franchise #1C in Matthews (#1 OA)

Can anyone imagine that if you asked any Leaf fan, how many years do you think it will take for Dubas to win a single playoff round?

If you knew the answer to that question was guaranteed to be at least 5 years, no sooner and maybe even longer, the conclusion would be almost unanimous that this guy isn't qualified to be an NHL GM.

Now flash back to today, and let reality sink in, because here we are, no further progress since the day he arrived and answer how many test he has passed.

It's a simple thought exercise that I think 99% of the fanbase won't be able to reconcile with their previously held expectations.

You could make a case, once upon a time, that those original Leafs teams that lost to Washington/Boston were knocking on the door of greatness/success but after 6 consecutive first round exits, it's pretty clear that the door was always locked from the outside due in large part to gross roster mismanagement.

 

[All Mod Cons]

That stark change in philosophy from something new, which didn't make sense, to something more conventional a couple years later was a very bad look for a GM that had everyone on edge wondering if a rookie was the right guy to take the Leafs next step.

Watching BOS steal a game by basically just beating us up was like watching an out of control train finally hit a wall. That was so depressing.

He has improved but the time lost and the long term challenges created that can't seem to be undone will continue to be unsettling until progress is made and hope established.

Freddy just got 4th in Vezina voting. Another lesson learned as we scramble to fix the latest priority. Maybe he keeps the next top 10 goalie, if we find one, and rolls with the punches.

Agreed 100%. This is why his original philosophy and trying to recreate the game was stupid. People that didn't support it were called archaic and stupid. Kyle does seem to finally be dailing himself back on, but there's been too much damage done in only his first two years.

I can't see how this can be amended during his tenure.

 

[Racer88]

Agreed 100%. This is why his original philosophy and trying to recreate the game was stupid. People that didn't support it were called archaic and stupid. Kyle does seem to finally be dailing himself back on, but there's been too much damage done in only his first two years.

I can't see how this can be amended during his tenure.

Unless he can unload Tavares there is no way he can fix this over the next year

 

[Menzinger]

Marleau was overpaid, but that was irrelevant until the rebuild was ended too quickly. He was brought in to help show the kids how to be elite professional athletes. He wasn't brought in to help win in the present. He was brought in to help win in the future. The value he brought was to be paying dividends years after his 3 year contract expired.

Not sure I'd agree with that. Looking at Babcock's comments when he signed and how he used him - he was brought in because they'd thought they'd help him win games. Just look at how he got used during those Boston playoff series.

They may have indeed valued his leadership, but they veiwed him as a legit top 9 impact player. That's why they gave him 18 million dollars. Babcock outright said they didn't expect him when they signed the deal to finish the contract in Toronto.

 

[Dreakmur]

Not sure I'd agree with that. Looking at Babcock's comments when he signed and how he used him - he was brought in because they'd thought they'd help him win games. Just look at how he got used during those Boston playoff series.

They may have indeed valued his leadership, but they veiwed him as a legit top 9 impact player. That's why they gave him 18 million dollars. Babcock outright said they didn't expect him when they signed the deal to finish the contract in Toronto.

They used Marleau because he did the little things right, and that showed the kids. If they did those little things, they'd take his ice time.... but they never did.

Yes, they viewed him as a top-9 player. It's tough to be a leader when you're not a key contributor.

 

[Bomber0104]

They used Marleau because he did the little things right, and that showed the kids. If they did those little things, they'd take his ice time.... but they never did.

Yes, they viewed him as a top-9 player. It's tough to be a leader when you're not a key contributor.

People forget the first series vs Boston, he was absolutely a leader and the leading goal scorer.

Definitely was going to be retired/LTIR'd after the second season, no question.

The only reason that contract was an issue was because Dubas made it one by signing an $11 million player knowing full-well the math didn't work.

Then the press-lackey's like Mirtle start going after Lou/Marleau as if that was the original sin.

It wasn't at all.

 

[rocketman588]

Value wasn't high because they could have been offer sheeted by any team with Marleau in our roster after buyout window closed. So it was wise for other teams to wait. If we didn't sort out Marleau first we would have been in trouble.

Why we didn't do that during previous season? We were contending.

So it was either those players dumped or Marleau traded. Like said they probably didn't want to pay that first rounder but it was best poison there was. Most complete roster and you could kept players you want. Rather than keeping that first and maybe drafting lesser player than Kapanen or Johnsson.

It is pretty stupid to assume they didn't explore every option. Like said offer sheet threat prevented good trades for Kapanen. Who we traded for first later on and had hopes that he could really break trough.

We have traded two firsts. So it isn't something we prefer. Foligno trade was risky and it blew up on us. Should have kept that first but it was season to go all-in.

Trading 2/4 firsts for 50% (while getting one back) isn't really a great ratio

 

[Shooter2x]

Marleau was overpaid, but that was irrelevant until the rebuild was ended too quickly. He was brought in to help show the kids how to be elite professional athletes. He wasn't brought in to help win in the present. He was brought in to help win in the future. The value he brought was to be paying dividends years after his 3 year contract expired.

Marleau era went exactly as Babcock predicted.

His first 1.5 seasons were great as they predicted. No complaints. (They actually predicted 2 good seasons, that last 1/2 where they still thought he was good cost us dearly)

Black hole after that, as predicted.

Loved Marleau in his first year here.

 

[Dreakmur]

Marleau era went exactly as Babcock predicted.

His first 1.5 seasons were great as they predicted. No complaints. (They actually predicted 2 good seasons, that last 1/2 where they still thought he was good cost us dearly)

Black hole after that, as predicted.

Loved Marleau in his first year here.

Everyone knew that, and it didn't matter. Having an overpaid veteran leader on a rebuilding team isn't an issue. It wasn't ever going to be a salary cap problem... until they prematurely ended the rebuild by signing an 11 million dollar contract.

 

[Shooter2x]

Everyone knew that, and it didn't matter. Having an overpaid veteran leader on a rebuilding team isn't an issue. It wasn't ever going to be a salary cap problem... until they prematurely ended the rebuild by signing an 11 million dollar contract.

I disagree it was Tavares' contract that made it mandatory we had to make that trade the way it specifically went, but I will find some common ground and agree the planning, if any, was mediocre to efficiently execute the goodbye with Marleau.

 

[Dreakmur]

I disagree it was Tavares' contract that made it mandatory we had to make that trade the way it specifically went, but I will find some common ground and agree the planning, if any, was mediocre to efficiently execute the goodbye with Marleau.

It was two different GMs with two different plans. Marleau's contract intersected both. It wasn't a problem until the plan changed. Once the plan changed, the contract was a problem.

 

[ToneDog]

It was two different GMs with two different plans. Marleau's contract intersected both. It wasn't a problem until the plan changed. Once the plan changed, the contract was a problem.

So how does it fall on Lou once he is gone ?

 

[Playoffsareoverrated]

fire that bozo