Value of: Defense to Toronto

Hunter368

RIP lomiller1, see you in the next life buddy.
Nov 8, 2011
27,102
23,850
Anyone is available except Matthews.

What would you give up for Nylander?

Who are you upgrading?

We’ve all been told for the last year Rielly & Gardiner are top pairing LHD, so you’re top 4 lhd must be good. We’ve been told Zaitsev is top 4 rhd. Ok we all told you Hainsey sucked, so yeh upgrading him is a good idea. Ok sucks might be too strong word, he just isn’t a top 4 guy, he’s a 3rd pairing ideally. You’re bottom pairing is poor, but so is most teams you just need to limit their ice time and try not let them get exposed with bad matchups.

You also have multi bad defensive players or players who seem to only care about padding their offensive stats, they need to be dealt with just as much or more then any D change.
 

Jozay

Registered User
Jul 9, 2012
14,710
10,669
Toronto
Who are you upgrading?

We’ve all been told for the last year Rielly & Gardiner are top pairing LHD, so you’re top 4 lhd must be good. We’ve been told Zaitsev is top 4 rhd. Ok we all told you Hainsey sucked, so yeh upgrading him is a good idea. Ok sucks might be too strong word, he just isn’t a top 4 guy, he’s a 3rd pairing ideally. You’re bottom pairing is poor, but so is most teams you just need to limit their ice time and try not let them get exposed with bad matchups.

You also have multi bad defensive players or players who seem to only care about padding their offensive stats, they need to be dealt with just as much or more then any D change.
He's playing like a top 4 dman so far lol.
 

Hunter368

RIP lomiller1, see you in the next life buddy.
Nov 8, 2011
27,102
23,850
He's playing like a top 4 dman so far lol.

If you’re happy with Hainsey as one of your top 4 that’s a major problem. He’s a bottom pairing guy who plays it safe and thus can move as a complimentary player. Playing a player above where he’s has the skill set to do doesn’t make him any better. Jets played Stuart top 4 for way too long b/c they had nothing better at the time, doesn’t make Stuart a top 4 D.
 

Jozay

Registered User
Jul 9, 2012
14,710
10,669
Toronto
If you’re happy with Hainsey as one of your top 4 that’s a major problem. He’s a bottom pairing guy who plays it safe and thus can move as a complimentary player. Playing a player above where he’s has the skill set to do doesn’t make him any better. Jets played Stuart top 4 for way too long b/c they had nothing better at the time, doesn’t make Stuart a top 4 D.
How is it a major problem if Hainsey is playing like a top 4 dman? Watch him play. He hasnt been a liability at all for us so far. Granted, its only been 15 games, but if he can keep up his play, then i'll be perfectly fine.
 

MR4

Registered User
Oct 20, 2014
6,270
2,253
Who are you upgrading?

We’ve all been told for the last year Rielly & Gardiner are top pairing LHD, so you’re top 4 lhd must be good. We’ve been told Zaitsev is top 4 rhd. Ok we all told you Hainsey sucked, so yeh upgrading him is a good idea. Ok sucks might be too strong word, he just isn’t a top 4 guy, he’s a 3rd pairing ideally. You’re bottom pairing is poor, but so is most teams you just need to limit their ice time and try not let them get exposed with bad matchups.

You also have multi bad defensive players or players who seem to only care about padding their offensive stats, they need to be dealt with just as much or more then any D change.
Rielly-XXX
Gardiner/Dermott*-Zaitsev
Borgman-Hainsey/Liljegren*

Is a great d-core to go with a top offensive lineup, IF we can get a #1RHD in that XXX spot. I think it's best to wait until 2019 UFA to see if we can sign 1 of the 4 #1D's becoming UFA then, I'd bet on at least one of Doughty or OEL actually making it to UFA without signing with their respective teams so it's definitely possible to acquire the last piece of the D-core through free agency. If we can't, only then we should look for trade options IMO. Although I disagree with you on Hainsey, he's definitely top 4 material.

*= Potential replacements for when the current player leaves (Not sure if Gardiner will be kept, he's a 2018 UFA)

So in the meantime, I'd agree that it's best to work on trading out anyone from the forwards that we don't want to keep, those primarily being the UFAs this year. Then we work on being better at team D and just growing as a group until we make our push for the 2019 UFAs
 

DJJones

Registered User
Nov 18, 2014
10,328
3,632
Calgary
I feel like next year Calgary will be looking to drop a defenseman off of our top 4.

Frankly I just want to keep Brodie. Gio, Hamilton, and Hamonic could all be had for the right price.

Our prospects will force a move sooner or later.
 

kihei

McEnroe: The older I get, the better I used to be.
Jun 14, 2006
42,968
10,432
Toronto
There must be a circle of hell for Leaf hockey fans who can't figure out why other teams don't jump at the chance to nab the players that we want to trade. Rome wasn't built in a day, and no single trade is going to transform a team defense that is obviously a work in progress. What team becomes a Stanley Cup contender by looking at immediate wing-and-a-prayer solutions?
 

Liferleafer

TSN Scrum Lurker
Feb 9, 2011
39,848
13,005
If you’re happy with Hainsey as one of your top 4 that’s a major problem. He’s a bottom pairing guy who plays it safe and thus can move as a complimentary player. Playing a player above where he’s has the skill set to do doesn’t make him any better. Jets played Stuart top 4 for way too long b/c they had nothing better at the time, doesn’t make Stuart a top 4 D.
Hainsey has played top 4 on every team he's been on....and he played top pair minutes on the team that won that shiny silver cuppy thing last season....Hainsey is the least of our D problems so far this season.
 

Hunter368

RIP lomiller1, see you in the next life buddy.
Nov 8, 2011
27,102
23,850
Hainsey has played top 4 on every team he's been on....and he played top pair minutes on the team that won that shiny silver cuppy thing last season....Hainsey is the least of our D problems so far this season.

Hainsey is a cerebral player who doesn’t make huge blunders that you’ll notice during a highlight but he also doesn’t do much to help or solve your problems. He’s better suited to play bottom pairing. You guys need a defensive D, physical and still move the puck. Hainsey isn’t that. Much cheaper to upgrade Hainsey then Gardiner or Rielly.
 

OVO16

#WeTheNorth
Apr 16, 2017
10,139
9,889
I feel like next year Calgary will be looking to drop a defenseman off of our top 4.

Frankly I just want to keep Brodie. Gio, Hamilton, and Hamonic could all be had for the right price.

Our prospects will force a move sooner or later.

We were going hard after Hamonic before he was dealt to Calgary. If he becomes available I can def see the leafs going after him again
 

firstemperor

Registered User
May 25, 2011
8,755
1,445
From my side: The Leafs only have a single top-pairing D on the team.....Rielly, who is a #2, young, and getting better every year.

Gardiner, to me, is closer to a #3 at best. Really more of a #average-low end #3/#4. Just way too inconsistent and when he's off, he'll look out of sorts completely. He has long spells of playing like a #1/#2 but they are too far inconsistent to ever designate him with a higher grade, given his small sample size poor-spells can be absolutely horrific.

Zaits is a #4 to me. Zaits might have a bit more to give upside wise. Though I think Rielly-Hainsey in general, have been very good this year for the most part- the problem is they play only about ~1/3 of the game. To be frank, Hainsey hasn't looked out of place as a #2 defensive D next to Rielly almost all year.....he's been our best defensive d-men while Rielly's probably been our best overall. It's tough for me to give him a appropriate designation but Hainsey is closer to a #3 than a #4, IMO. People give him a hard time but don't acknowledge he's been a top 4 D for a large majority of the last decade or so, and has had some of the toughest usage of any D in the league while at it.

As per our bottom pairing- Borgman (right now) and Polak (definitely) are not NHL caliber players. A myriad of problems defensively and it's mostly personnel.

With those designations, your looking at a below average->bad defense in this league. 3 guys that are second pairing defenders at best. A bottom pairing that is probably close to league worst.

Inherently, not much way to upgrade team defense through avenues other than drafting/development, perhaps UFA (not for at least 2 years), and trade (very unlikely that a #1D ever hits market....anything short of it isn't really a true upgrade).

I do think upgrading/moving furniture with our forwards, and perhaps getting a more competitive and physical #3C could have a more profound effect on team defense than actually upgrading the bottom 4 in itself.

If I had to rank the issues defensively:

1) Forward group- Bozak..........then JVR. I'd include Martin there but I can accept he fits a niche role. Can't shelter a line driven by Bozak, it's going to be horrible in its own end/driving play/possession the other way no matter the reshuffling of applicable wingers + usage. Just think Bozak provides nothing defensively, minimal offensively besides rare spurts of creativity at ES and a whole lot of negatives- possession, zone time, sustained pressure going the other way, and a ton of loose pucks/battles lost or conceded.

Just think in a game that's heavily fueled by momentum and pace, his negatives far, far outweigh the positives....and we've already provided him as much as we can realistically from a usage standpoint.

That's essentially one line that will be horrible regardless of usage. If the Kadri or Matthews line are off, there's very little margin of error.

2) Bottom pairing- Polak and Borgman aren't NHL caliber. Carrick is a #5/#6D that requires favourable usage and doesn't have the proper partner- given his issue is size, physicality and our team weakness fits the same narrative.

Perhaps we have the internal upgrade already with Dermott, who's a lot better than Borgman/Rosen, from what I've seen, IMO.

3) Top 4.....specifically Gardiner's having a pretty big bad spell right now. We see this every year with him, if the trend follows....his play will pick up as the year goes on. Problem is, if your not consistent in this league or have the compete/will to battle through it.....your an expendable talent in this league. You have replaceable level talent like Del Zotto (which I would never endorse the Leafs to get) that can steal your job in this league.
 

The Shrike

Registered User
Jul 13, 2008
961
265
Toronto
No knee jerk trade is needed, the rebuild continues unabated. Younger players will continue to be developed, and older assets about to reach UFA status will be traded for picks and prospects as part of ongoing asset management. This will simultaneously clear roster spots for developed, less costly players, and refill the talent pool in the minors to continue the process.
 

Static

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 28, 2006
47,645
34,014
SoCal
So, in the span of a handful of games Toronto's young guys have gone from worth their weight in gold to this.

Nothing can be done in moderation on here. You're great or you suck.
 

GoodbyeLuongo

Registered User
Jun 8, 2012
1,927
638
Seattle
From my side: The Leafs only have a single top-pairing D on the team.....Rielly, who is a #2, young, and getting better every year.

Gardiner, to me, is closer to a #3 at best. Really more of a #average-low end #3/#4. Just way too inconsistent and when he's off, he'll look out of sorts completely. He has long spells of playing like a #1/#2 but they are too far inconsistent to ever designate him with a higher grade, given his small sample size poor-spells can be absolutely horrific.

Zaits is a #4 to me. Zaits might have a bit more to give upside wise. Though I think Rielly-Hainsey in general, have been very good this year for the most part- the problem is they play only about ~1/3 of the game. To be frank, Hainsey hasn't looked out of place as a #2 defensive D next to Rielly almost all year.....he's been our best defensive d-men while Rielly's probably been our best overall. It's tough for me to give him a appropriate designation but Hainsey is closer to a #3 than a #4, IMO. People give him a hard time but don't acknowledge he's been a top 4 D for a large majority of the last decade or so, and has had some of the toughest usage of any D in the league while at it.

As per our bottom pairing- Borgman (right now) and Polak (definitely) are not NHL caliber players. A myriad of problems defensively and it's mostly personnel.

With those designations, your looking at a below average->bad defense in this league. 3 guys that are second pairing defenders at best. A bottom pairing that is probably close to league worst.

Inherently, not much way to upgrade team defense through avenues other than drafting/development, perhaps UFA (not for at least 2 years), and trade (very unlikely that a #1D ever hits market....anything short of it isn't really a true upgrade).

I do think upgrading/moving furniture with our forwards, and perhaps getting a more competitive and physical #3C could have a more profound effect on team defense than actually upgrading the bottom 4 in itself.

If I had to rank the issues defensively:

1) Forward group- Bozak..........then JVR. I'd include Martin there but I can accept he fits a niche role. Can't shelter a line driven by Bozak, it's going to be horrible in its own end/driving play/possession the other way no matter the reshuffling of applicable wingers + usage. Just think Bozak provides nothing defensively, minimal offensively besides rare spurts of creativity at ES and a whole lot of negatives- possession, zone time, sustained pressure going the other way, and a ton of loose pucks/battles lost or conceded.

Just think in a game that's heavily fueled by momentum and pace, his negatives far, far outweigh the positives....and we've already provided him as much as we can realistically from a usage standpoint.

That's essentially one line that will be horrible regardless of usage. If the Kadri or Matthews line are off, there's very little margin of error.

2) Bottom pairing- Polak and Borgman aren't NHL caliber. Carrick is a #5/#6D that requires favourable usage and doesn't have the proper partner- given his issue is size, physicality and our team weakness fits the same narrative.

Perhaps we have the internal upgrade already with Dermott, who's a lot better than Borgman/Rosen, from what I've seen, IMO.

3) Top 4.....specifically Gardiner's having a pretty big bad spell right now. We see this every year with him, if the trend follows....his play will pick up as the year goes on. Problem is, if your not consistent in this league or have the compete/will to battle through it.....your an expendable talent in this league. You have replaceable level talent like Del Zotto (which I would never endorse the Leafs to get) that can steal your job in this league.

Del Zotto has actually been a solid player this year save a couple nightmare mistakes here and there. Was second on the team in assists too until the Sven-Brock-Bo show last night.
 

firstemperor

Registered User
May 25, 2011
8,755
1,445
Del Zotto has actually been a solid player this year save a couple nightmare mistakes here and there. Was second on the team in assists too until the Sven-Brock-Bo show last night.

I agree (he's been good, I watch the Canucks a decent amount), that was kind of my point...he's a replaceable level talent...commodity that is easy swing-able/obtainable on the open market. It's a competitive league.....if Gardiner can't prove he's a lot better than that, then in no world can you say he's a top pairing D.

It's not mutually exclusive to Gardiner either, I'm not going to treat a Leaf player any differently....my expectations are the same for everyone and pretty high in general.
 

GoodbyeLuongo

Registered User
Jun 8, 2012
1,927
638
Seattle
I agree (he's been good, I watch the Canucks a decent amount), that was kind of my point...he's a replaceable level talent...commodity that is easy swing-able/obtainable on the open market. It's a competitive league.....if Gardiner can't prove he's a lot better than that, then in no world can you say he's a top pairing D.

It's not mutually exclusive to Gardiner either, I'm not going to treat a Leaf player any differently....my expectations are the same for everyone and pretty high in general.

MDZ had one game (forget which one) where he was just an absolute abomination but besides that not bad. TBH, I've never understood the crazy infatuation with Gardiner. He's a good skater and can move the puck well but at least every time I've seen him his defensive game has left a lot to be desired
 

StreetHawk

Registered User
Sep 30, 2017
26,816
10,122
We were going hard after Hamonic before he was dealt to Calgary. If he becomes available I can def see the leafs going after him again
It was just draft picks that went to the Isles. Surely, the Leafs could have matched whatever Calgary was offering.

They own SJ's 2nd and 3rd in 2018. Enough picks to part with, yet they get outbid by Calgary? If they want a guy, go out and get him. They know what their weakness is. Go fix it.
 

firstemperor

Registered User
May 25, 2011
8,755
1,445
MDZ had one game (forget which one) where he was just an absolute abomination but besides that not bad. TBH, I've never understood the crazy infatuation with Gardiner. He's a good skater and can move the puck well but at least every time I've seen him his defensive game has left a lot to be desired

When he's on his game, he's very good. Played closer to a #1 in the playoffs. But his inconsistency is enough that you'd have to rate him a lot lower. His bad stretches get shorter every year but they are horrific. His extremes are pretty crazy, at his worst, he looks like an ECHL player. At his best, he shows shades of Neidermayer.

He could be underrated from what you'd read about him on here but it's hard to tell because the extremes of opinions against Leaf players can be on the high/low end both ways.

At baseline, he's closer to a #3/#4. He gets docked points due to inconsistency. For reference, I think an older Edler is a #4 and Tanev is a #2.
 

BruinLVGA

CZ Shadow 2 Compact: finally here!!!
Dec 15, 2013
15,288
7,522
Switzerland
you should be a gm, because these guys have been in hockey their entire lives and still often get things wrong.
Yak looked pretty good as a rookie. Maybe you could teach these gms a thing or two?
Did I say that I never get things wrong? I said that I have seen enough hockey to recognize good talent when I see it. I see McAvoy and he has oodles of talent. Got a problem with that?
 

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