Value of: Defense to Toronto

BruinLVGA

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So before McAvoy stepped foot on an nhl ice surface, he was already worth a franchise #1C on an ELC and nothing less?
You need it spelled out, don't you? As things stand NOW, regardless of how many games McAvoy played or didn't play in total, if you want him, the only player from Toronto that can allow you to get him is Matthews. Clearer now?
 

BruinLVGA

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The bruins don't have any combination of 2 players that get you matthews.

Bergeron,Pastrnak AND McAvoy MIGHT get it done

The three players you mentioned as a whole are a vastly superior asset to Matthews.
If you added them three on the Leafs and detract Matthews, you would be way closer to being a contender.
 

Leafsmann

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Again, is marner for carlo as base (assets obviously added if needed on either side) a fair deal?
 

LondonKendrick

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From my side: The Leafs only have a single top-pairing D on the team.....Rielly, who is a #2, young, and getting better every year.

Gardiner, to me, is closer to a #3 at best. Really more of a #average-low end #3/#4. Just way too inconsistent and when he's off, he'll look out of sorts completely. He has long spells of playing like a #1/#2 but they are too far inconsistent to ever designate him with a higher grade, given his small sample size poor-spells can be absolutely horrific.

Zaits is a #4 to me. Zaits might have a bit more to give upside wise. Though I think Rielly-Hainsey in general, have been very good this year for the most part- the problem is they play only about ~1/3 of the game. To be frank, Hainsey hasn't looked out of place as a #2 defensive D next to Rielly almost all year.....he's been our best defensive d-men while Rielly's probably been our best overall. It's tough for me to give him a appropriate designation but Hainsey is closer to a #3 than a #4, IMO. People give him a hard time but don't acknowledge he's been a top 4 D for a large majority of the last decade or so, and has had some of the toughest usage of any D in the league while at it.

As per our bottom pairing- Borgman (right now) and Polak (definitely) are not NHL caliber players. A myriad of problems defensively and it's mostly personnel.

With those designations, your looking at a below average->bad defense in this league. 3 guys that are second pairing defenders at best. A bottom pairing that is probably close to league worst.

Inherently, not much way to upgrade team defense through avenues other than drafting/development, perhaps UFA (not for at least 2 years), and trade (very unlikely that a #1D ever hits market....anything short of it isn't really a true upgrade).

I do think upgrading/moving furniture with our forwards, and perhaps getting a more competitive and physical #3C could have a more profound effect on team defense than actually upgrading the bottom 4 in itself.

If I had to rank the issues defensively:

1) Forward group- Bozak..........then JVR. I'd include Martin there but I can accept he fits a niche role. Can't shelter a line driven by Bozak, it's going to be horrible in its own end/driving play/possession the other way no matter the reshuffling of applicable wingers + usage. Just think Bozak provides nothing defensively, minimal offensively besides rare spurts of creativity at ES and a whole lot of negatives- possession, zone time, sustained pressure going the other way, and a ton of loose pucks/battles lost or conceded.

Just think in a game that's heavily fueled by momentum and pace, his negatives far, far outweigh the positives....and we've already provided him as much as we can realistically from a usage standpoint.

That's essentially one line that will be horrible regardless of usage. If the Kadri or Matthews line are off, there's very little margin of error.

2) Bottom pairing- Polak and Borgman aren't NHL caliber. Carrick is a #5/#6D that requires favourable usage and doesn't have the proper partner- given his issue is size, physicality and our team weakness fits the same narrative.

Perhaps we have the internal upgrade already with Dermott, who's a lot better than Borgman/Rosen, from what I've seen, IMO.

3) Top 4.....specifically Gardiner's having a pretty big bad spell right now. We see this every year with him, if the trend follows....his play will pick up as the year goes on. Problem is, if your not consistent in this league or have the compete/will to battle through it.....your an expendable talent in this league. You have replaceable level talent like Del Zotto (which I would never endorse the Leafs to get) that can steal your job in this league.
Gardiner is a low end 3/4? Not many 3/4 that run one of the league's best powerplays and has exception relative corsi (-7.92 over the last 3 seasons, elite) and -0.37 GA/60 rel (so limits goal differential with near identical numbers to top pair gem Chris Tanev). For a low end 3/4 he sure does well for results. That's from the last three seasons for sample size, so a result of consistent play. What's inconsistent is calling him a 'low end 3' because you say him turn a puck over and it looked ugly that time and that other time ya know.

Hard to draw definitive conclusions on Zaitsev but Rielly-Hainsey looks a lot better than Rielly - Zaitsev did last season, not a fan of +/- but Zaitsev was the notable outlier last season, Gadiner - Zaitsev looks bad this year, so I would put the blame on the guy that hurt Rielly last year and is hurting Gardiner this year. Given his numbers are bad, his metrics were below average in nearly every category last year and his worst numbers are his cap hit along with term.

As for the rest, Carrick and Borgman are unspectacular and young they'll be inconsistent but either you value their upside or you don't.
 

firstemperor

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Gardiner is a low end 3/4? Not many 3/4 that run one of the league's best powerplays and has exception relative corsi (-7.92 over the last 3 seasons, elite) and -0.37 GA/60 rel (so limits goal differential with near identical numbers to top pair gem Chris Tanev). For a low end 3/4 he sure does well for results. That's from the last three seasons for sample size, so a result of consistent play. What's inconsistent is calling him a 'low end 3' because you say him turn a puck over and it looked ugly that time and that other time ya know.

Gardiner is an enigma that is hard to judge. I may be a bit pessimistic but he's somewhere around a #3. At his best, he plays close to a #1, #2 in spurts but his bad spells are so horrific I'm not sure you can rationalize putting him any higher. Would you be confident on a contender with Gardiner as your top-pairing D? Perhaps, but only if he had a defensive anchor like Giordano or someone else next to him. I think his comparable is close to what Brodie is. Not a top-pairing D in my eyes.

Some of his underlying metrics are high-end, I don't disagree. But a guy like Demers and Marcinin had positive metrics as well that have been elaborated on countless times......I could probably be convinced either way.
 

LondonKendrick

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Gardiner is an enigma that is hard to judge. I may be a bit pessimistic but he's somewhere around a #3. At his best, he plays close to a #1, #2 in spurts but his bad spells are so horrific I'm not sure you can rationalize putting him any higher. Would you be confident on a contender with Gardiner as your top-pairing D? Perhaps, but only if he had a defensive anchor like Giordano or someone else next to him. I think his comparable is close to what Brodie is. Not a top-pairing D in my eyes.

Some of his underlying metrics are high-end, I don't disagree. But a guy like Demers and Marcinin had positive metrics as well that have been elaborated on countless times......I could probably be convinced either way.
It's not that hard to judge, you look at the numbers and draw conclusions.

'Would I be comfortable with Gardiner as your 1D' That's a silly question, it assume he needs to be a Norris candidate to be useful. He is great on the PP, I'm confident playing there, he struggles on a top pair 5 on 5 so I'm confident with him sheltered on the second pair 5 on 5 where he does fine. He can play up in a pinch.

Funny you mention Gio the one guy with better relative corsi than Gardiner ( https://theleafsnation.com/2016/09/06/jake-gardiner-is-really-good-defensively/) Gardiner is an anchor.

Brodie isn't a top pairing D? Brodie is easily a top 20 blueliner in the league, maybe I'm just taking the bait in this reply, if so, you hooked me, hats off

Yeah, Gardiner QoC and minutes put him in another universe than Marcinin, Gardiner offensive production, skating, PP time put him in another conversation than Demers.

Whats the argument against Gardiner, 'he looks bad sometimes tho' ok, no one is calling him Karlsson but if you look at Karlsson he used to make a lot of ugly plays because he had the puck all time, you sometimes turn it over or make a silly looking play.

The best description of Gardiner I've read on HF is him being called McDonagh light. Leafs are fortunate to have Gardiner.
 

firstemperor

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The best description of Gardiner I've read on HF is him being called McDonagh light. Leafs are fortunate to have Gardiner.

No need to try to rationalize the metrics with Gardiner, I'm a hockey nut I've read and looked at most, if not all of them. I simply think he's enigmatic.....he's hard to put a label on. Yes, over some large sample size he might show he's a #2 or capable of it, but his bad spells are absolutely horrific....stats often don't judge totality, trends, or analyze at specific timepoints.

As for Brodie being a top 20D in the league, I'd disagree but I wasn't baiting or anything of the sort. He's probably closer to 30-40. Simply trying to provide a frame of reference. I'm sure I'll be called out on it but to me, Brodie is at best a #2 and a similar player to Gardiner....less lows (though he does have them), probably not as good as Gardiner at his best. It's a tough call.

I don't feel impassioned about this enough to really rationalize or discuss this with you at length....as I said, it's a pretty objective and neutral opinion but I could probably be convinced the other way.

I do think that in general, if Gardiner doesn't fundamentally solve his consistency issues, it really doesn't matter what the stats say (which judge over a very large sample size and adjust for peaks/lows of play......that's not a top-pairing D in this league). Consistency is a revered notion...it shouldn't be overlooked.
 
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LondonKendrick

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No need to try to rationalize the metrics with Gardiner, I'm a hockey nut I've read and looked at most, if not all of them. I simply think he's enigmatic.....he's hard to put a label on. Yes, over some large sample size he might show he's a #2 or capable of it, but his bad spells are absolutely horrific....stats often don't judge totality, trends, or analyze at specific timepoints.

As for Brodie being a top 20D in the league, I'd disagree but I wasn't baiting or anything of the sort. He's probably closer to 30-40. Simply trying to provide a frame of reference. I'm sure I'll be called out on it but to me, Brodie is at best a #2 and a similar player to Gardiner....less lows (though he does have them), probably not as good as Gardiner at his best. It's a tough call.

I don't feel impassioned about this enough to really rationalize or discuss this with you at length....as I said, it's a pretty objective and neutral opinion but I could probably be convinced the other way.

I do think that in general, if Gardiner doesn't fundamentally solve his consistency issues, it really doesn't matter what the stats say (which judge over a very large sample size and adjust for peaks/lows of play......that's not a top-pairing D in this league). Consistency is a revered notion...it shouldn't be overlooked.
Don't or can't?
 

firstemperor

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Don't or can't?

If we're talking numbers, probably closer to can't. But I'm not here to argue in either direction when it comes to Gardiner...nor do I have an agenda going either way, so it's hard for me to rationalize an argument in either direction. It's almost like asking someone to partake in a debate, on opposing ends- even though they don't feel strongly one way or the other.

The guy's underlying numbers are legendary. He's top of the class by a lot of metrics, if you like numbers like WAR- even going back as far as when we were rebuilding. I'm as big of a fan as Gardiner as anyone but he's entering his prime now. There's no room for his horrific bouts if we're going to hold him to a higher standard. And let's be straight, we're discussing the semantics of a #3 versus a #1/#2. Those are high standards.

You can't use metrics as an absolute but for me, Gardiner is closer to a bubble player on this core given he's entering his UFA years soon. Maybe it's usage, maybe he needs a stronger D anchor other than Zaitsev- as they have a bit of overlapping weaknesses. But fundamentally, he's been horribly inconsistent and we need him to be better. Do I with-hold the fact he looks like a #1 at times? No. But he also looks horrific at times as well, the spurts may be a lot smaller but they are there.

Again, as I stated, I have to dock him points for his huge bouts of inconsistency. There's a long season to go but if I'm factoring in recency, there's just no way you can argue he's more than a #3 right now. Does he have the upside to be better? Yes, certainly.......but he needs to prove it, we can't wait around about it forever.

It's almost like when fans used to project their thoughts onto JVR when he was here...but at some point, you have to accept players for what they are. I don't think Gardiner is anywhere near that point yet, and I do think it's more of a usage/growing-pains case with him (as it can be for a lot of d-men) but the clock is ticking.
 

ColbyChaos

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Hainsey has played top 4 on every team he's been on....and he played top pair minutes on the team that won that shiny silver cuppy thing last season....Hainsey is the least of our D problems so far this season.

You could put Hainsey on practically any other cup winner's roster the past few years and he is a bottom pairing guy. The only reason he was used as a top 4 guy was because Letang was out.
 

ole ole

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nylander is better than pastrnak. there's no way he isn't

No he isn't. Like it was stated , Pastrnak has been better than Nylander at every stage of their post draft career and they're the same age including this season so far.
 

NarcoPolo

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You need it spelled out, don't you? As things stand NOW, regardless of how many games McAvoy played or didn't play in total, if you want him, the only player from Toronto that can allow you to get him is Matthews. Clearer now?
I don't need anything spelled out for me, thanks. This back and forth is a waste of time and frankly is completely ridiculous. About as clear as your original post.
 

GodEmperor

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Oct 12, 2017
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Just give up a 1st for Green, he would make an amazing 5D to play alongside Carrick/Borg and a huge upgrade on our PP.

We don't want to kill our prospect pool, but we do want to upgrade, besides Green at the 5 would allow us to give the top 4 a bit of a break in having a decent 5/6.
 

96

toronto money leafs
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Bracco + Fehr + 2nd for Erik Johnson

I know EJ is kind of overrated but I think thats a VERY good offer for him. I was going to make the pick a 1st based on the condition that we make it to the 2nd round but dropped that, considering he has 6 more years left at a 6M caphit.

edit: added Eric Fehr as a cap dump, he's a good fourth liner IMO, easily would be used by the Avs. 1 year at 2M.
 

Vancouver Canucks

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Bracco + 2nd for Erik Johnson

I know EJ is kind of overrated but I think thats a VERY good offer for him. I was going to make the pick a 1st based on the condition that we make it to the 2nd round but dropped that, considering he has 6 more years left at a 6M caphit.

Change the second-round pick to a late first-round pick, perhaps.
 

96

toronto money leafs
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Change the second-round pick to a late first-round pick, perhaps.
I would like to but I can't... 6 years is a long time at 6M with the style that he plays. It'd be a risk for Toronto, however if the condition was needed I would probably do it. Think it'd be smart for Colorado to get EJ out of there before he loses anymore value and gets older. Lets them continue the tank for Dahlin.
 

Man Bear Pig

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You need it spelled out, don't you? As things stand NOW, regardless of how many games McAvoy played or didn't play in total, if you want him, the only player from Toronto that can allow you to get him is Matthews. Clearer now?
I want what she's having.
 

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