Prospect Info: David Reinbacher

[SannywithoutCompy]

The alternative was what I proposed in the summer: CC for Cooley and AZ 1st..

Then we draft Rainmaker and Michkov, which is a much better fit for our window which is in 3 yrs.


I dont see him being a Patty Kane... he reminds me more of Mats Zuccarello, which is still a really good player.

Michkov's potential is to Zuccarello what Reinbacher's potential is to Kovacevic

 

[417]

The only decent forwards on the team right now (2 good forwards on the entire team) were slow cooked. Ghule was also slow cooked.

How was any of those players "slow cooked"

Between Suzuki/Caufield/Guhle, they've got a total of 10 AHL games between all 3 of them, and Suzuki played none.

In the end of course it doesn't mean anything since all players are different. I'm pretty sure the argument from most is that you can't harm your player by playing them in lower leagues until they dominate and move up , while you can harm them by rushing them in the NHL and giving them a role that they aren't expected to fill when they are fully developed (playing as a third liner)

Not only did we rush KK but we also lost him early because we burned his ELC years for absolutely NO good reason

I guess that's the discussion that we're having now, well at least those of us capable of having those discussions respectfully, cough cough...

I'm not so sure the bolded isn't rooted in folklore personally.

 

[LaP]

The only decent forwards on the team right now (2 good forwards on the entire team) were slow cooked. Ghule was also slow cooked.

In the end of course it doesn't mean anything since all players are different. I'm pretty sure the argument from most is that you can't harm your player by playing them in lower leagues until they dominate and move up , while you can harm them by rushing them in the NHL and giving them a role that they aren't expected to fill when they are fully developed (playing as a third liner)

Not only did we rush KK but we also lost him early because we burned his ELC years for absolutely NO good reason

I honestly don't think you can harm them as long as you're patient and work with them. There is in my humble opinion two main ways to harm a young player. Having him play in the NHL and throwing him under the bus after every mistakes like if he was a veteran. If you're going to do that keep him in the AHL. Keeping him in the AHL for more than two seasons without giving him games in the NHL so you can work with him to see what he has to improve in the upper league.

As long as you're not doing that the kid should be fine. Work with him. Be patient. Focus on what he has to improve and what he's doing well instead of being negative all the time. Do not act like he's a veteran until he has at least around 200 games of experience in the NHL. Be patient. Some guys figure it out after 1 year, other after 2 years and some can take up to 3 years. Work with the kids. Don't let them figure it out by themselves Marc Bergevin style.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

I've never seen the kid play, but I don't see much hype about him unless its this forum. Am I missing something?

He’s not flashy but he breaks up plays with ease while being a teenager in a men’s league. He does it either with an active stick, great positioning or rubbing his man out along the boards. Very mobile with great size.

Terrific passer. Gets the transition game going lickety split. Really great in joining the rush and picking his spots.

Whether he has high end offense is the big question mark. Hard to say. He’s comparable to Guhle in many ways but more polished at the same age. I think Guhle COULD have the higher upside but it wouldn’t be by a landslide.

Huge floor. Huge ceiling. If you think a #1D absolutely has to be a PP1 QB then he likely won’t be a #1. We have better options there anyways. But he can be a McDonagh #1 all day long. I’d say Reinbacher has more offensive potential but it’s comparable.

I have no doubt he’ll be a huge part of this team even at worst. Kind of like a Hamrlik

 

[Walksss]

I just spent 20 minutes reading the correspondence on this thread when I should have been working. Thank you all for contributing to my procrastination as always.

You guys have done a great job in here of dismantling the AHL development path narrative that is so popular with the usual posters on here. Props to all of you putting in the time to provide substance and examples. It's a shame that it is met with just hand waving and dismissal, but that is just human nature no matter the topic. It's hard to keep an open mind when you're entrenched in a viewpoint.

 

[montreal]

Again, i'm not going to debate the semantics behind the expression "slow cooked", but he played 205 AHL games before becoming a full fledged NHL player.

Call it whatever you want if you don't like that expression, if you prefer.

DLR played 33 games as a 19 year old and another 37 games in the AHL.

Why do you think players are so fragile that it's those 33 games in the NHL that set the path for the rest of his career?

You asked for it and furthermore, no one is forcing you to read it.

Additionally, no clue why you're so hostile. This subject gets you so wound up lol it's cute though.

Funny...

Total AHL games played

Chipchura - 205
Plekanec - 233

But previously you said Chipchura wasn't, but Plekanec was...a whole 28 games is the difference here?

Might be time to step into this decade...teams aren't putting guys in the AHL for 3 freaking years anymore.

because as I said, Chipchura was coming off a major knee injury and then then the achillies injury. So he missed a lot of development time, hence he wasn't ready for the NHL, hence not slow cooked. Pleks had a big 2nd year in the AHL so I don't think he needed a full 3rd year and then 2 games in a 4th year.

The Habs have rushed so many and yet you try and say they were slow cooked, that's just utter nonsense and a waste of time that it offends me that's how terrible I think your opinion is.

 

[SwiftyHab]

You don't want him all sweet and tender after being slow cooked?


If you mean, the Kloten HC getting fired, that might be a good thing since the team was not playing well. Reinbacher is pretty much the team top D, he's not going to lose his minutes under the new coach whomever that is (I saw no news about that).

Didn’t they sign beaulieu whose already getting more ice time then reindeer?

 

[morhilane]

Didn’t they sign beaulieu whose already getting more ice time then reindeer?

I've seen a comment that Beaulieu was getting PP1 ice time, but I don't think he's getting more 5v5/defensive TOI than Reinbacher.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Any update on Reinbacher? Is he back on the ice playing? How's he lookin?

 

[jrom]

Kent said he's ceiling is 2D and that he's not gonna run a first PP in NHL.

You believe all he says publicly ? You have full confidence in the scouting team, Anderson is “not for trade”, etc ?

I understand the (valid) points and healthy skepticism about our draft picks but taking public statements and pretending they’re supposed to be their actual opinion and not some sort of PR is silly.

 

[yianik]

You believe all he says publicly ? You have full confidence in the scouting team, Anderson is “not for trade”, etc ?

I understand the (valid) points and healthy skepticism about our draft picks but taking public statements and pretending they’re supposed to be their actual opinion and not some sort of PR is silly.

I am hopeful Hughes struck a balance here between " if I say he is a no.1D then there will be tremendous pressure on the kid but if I say 2nd pairing people will lose their minds on why we picked a 2nd pair ceiling player over Michkov ".

Because I will say, I will be awfully unhappy if his ceiling isn't as a 1D.

 

[417]

because as I said, Chipchura was coming off a major knee injury and then then the achillies injury. So he missed a lot of development time, hence he wasn't ready for the NHL, hence not slow cooked. Pleks had a big 2nd year in the AHL so I don't think he needed a full 3rd year and then 2 games in a 4th year.

What does Chipchurs coming off a major injury have to do with the fact that he still played 205 AHL games, which is 28 less than Plekanec who WE AGREE was slow cooked?

He wasn't even a Montreal Canadiens player when he got injured

205 AHL = rushed
233 AHL = slow cooked

I mean ok lol

And why the need to be so nasty about it in the process?

Seems odd to me that I've got to be explaining the virtues of respectful discourse, we don't have to agree, but there was no need to be so snide with your remarks either.

The Habs have rushed so many and yet you try and say they were slow cooked, that's just utter nonsense and a waste of time that it offends me that's how terrible I think your opinion is.

Offends you? Ok forget respectful discourse, I can get nasty too.

Are you part of the developmental staff that developed them? You can make a million YouTube videos of prospects, that just means you got a lot of time on your hands, it doesn't make you anymore of a subject matter expert on development than a hole in a wall.

What's wrong with you? Lol

I stand by what I wrote and the list I provided...if that offends you, get a hobby my guy.

F**k I care if you think my opinion on the matter is terrible lol cause you got a few thousand subscribers its gotten to your head you think you can just say whatever or you're some kinda prospect development expert!?

Man please

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

He’s not flashy but he breaks up plays with ease while being a teenager in a men’s league. He does it either with an active stick, great positioning or rubbing his man out along the boards. Very mobile with great size.

Terrific passer. Gets the transition game going lickety split. Really great in joining the rush and picking his spots.

Whether he has high end offense is the big question mark. Hard to say. He’s comparable to Guhle in many ways but more polished at the same age. I think Guhle COULD have the higher upside but it wouldn’t be by a landslide.

Huge floor. Huge ceiling. If you think a #1D absolutely has to be a PP1 QB then he likely won’t be a #1. We have better options there anyways. But he can be a McDonagh #1 all day long. I’d say Reinbacher has more offensive potential but it’s comparable.

I have no doubt he’ll be a huge part of this team even at worst. Kind of like a Hamrlik

I don't see him having the offensive upside of McDonagh. Those 2014 playoffs he was playing like a top 3 defenseman in the world.

 

[calder candidate]

That's not my recollection in the 80ies at all. Maybe in the 70ies? But we are far back then.

Shayne Corson - did not play in the AHL
Richer - played 12 games in the AHL
Chelios - did not play in the AHL
Carbonneau - played two seasons in the AHL but let's be honest he was a 3rd round pick
Svoboda - did not play in the AHL and did not stay in Europe either
Claude Lemieux - played 58 games in the AHL
Mark Hunter - did not play in the AHL
Gilbert Delorme - did not play in the AHL
Tom Kurvers - did not play in the AHL
Sergio Momesso - played 6 games in the AHL
Patrick Roy - played 1 game in the AHL
Ghilchrist - played 1 season in the AHL
Tom Chorske - played 59 games in the AHL
Odelein - played two seasons in the AHL but let's be honest he was a 7th round pick
Lumme - played 26 games in the AHL, spent two years in Europe
Cassels - played 55 games in the AHL
LeClair - played 8 games in the AHL (totally busted his career)
Desjardins - played 3 games in the AHL
Schneider - played 28 games in the AHL

My recollection when i was young in the 80ies and early 90ies is that we graduated kids very quickly and retired over the hill vets very quickly too to replace them with kids. All this changed in the middle of the 90ies after Savard was fired.

It's a myth that we used to let kids cook in the AHL and ice 35+ years old players (in modern hockey). In 93 there was only two players over 30 in the lineup in playoffs (Savard and Carbo) and in 86 there was only two players over 30 in the lineup in playoffs (Robinson and Gainey). We iced young team made of players we drafted. But we were patient with kids. Not always but certainly more than today.

How many of these guy that barely played in the AHL played in the NHL at 18yo?
How many were playing in the NHL but weren’t having any impact.

 

[montreal]

What does Chipchurs coming off a major injury have to do with the fact that he still played 205 AHL games, which is 28 less than Plekanec who WE AGREE was slow cooked?

He wasn't even a Montreal Canadiens player when he got injured

205 AHL = rushed
233 AHL = slow cooked

I mean ok lol

And why the need to be so nasty about it in the process?

Seems odd to me that I've got to be explaining the virtues of respectful discourse, we don't have to agree, but there was no need to be so snide with your remarks either.



Offends you? Ok forget respectful discourse, I can get nasty too.

Are you part of the developmental staff that developed them? You can make a million YouTube videos of prospects, that just means you got a lot of time on your hands, it doesn't make you anymore of a subject matter expert on development than a hole in a wall.

What's wrong with you? Lol

I stand by what I wrote and the list I provided...if that offends you, get a hobby my guy.

F**k I care if you think my opinion on the matter is terrible lol cause you got a few thousand subscribers its gotten to your head you think you can just say whatever or you're some kinda prospect development expert!?

Man please

First off you are using games as a bench mark which just shows how nonsense your post was. Like why the f*** would that matter the amount of games when it's about them being ready for not for the NHL, which is why they are in the AHL for the 1st place, because they need to work on things and the NHL is not the place to learn how to skate or shoot.

You made up a bunch of bullshit by putting a list of prospects like David Fischer and saying he was slow cooked, how the f*** does that make any sense? Or DLR at 19 in the NHL when EVERYONE should see that he was RUSHED to the NHL. How the f*** does playing on the 4th line for half a season in the AHL only to get bumped up the lineup after the wjc's and then a month or so later he's in the NHL at 19 when he barely had much time in the AHL since 4th liners don't often play much in the AHL either.

There's no way ANYONE actually believes DLR was slow cooked.

 

[417]

First off you are using games as a bench mark which just shows how nonsense your post was. Like why the f*** would that matter the amount of games when it's about them being ready for not for the NHL, which is why they are in the AHL for the 1st place, because they need to work on things and the NHL is not the place to learn how to skate or shoot.

Who said that was my benchmark? Lol you asked me to provide you with a list of players WHO WERE SLOW COOKED.

I proceeded to provide you with just that, you didn't ask for a detailed breakdown of each individual players specific situation as it relates to how ready they were for the NHL.

You asked for a very superficial analysis of players I qualified as being “slow cooked”. That's what I did.

I'm just holding up the mirror, don't blame me if you don't like the reflection.

You made up a bunch of bullshit by putting a list of prospects like David Fischer and saying he was slow cooked, how the f*** does that make any sense? Or DLR at 19 in the NHL when EVERYONE should see that he was RUSHED to the NHL. How the f*** does playing on the 4th line for half a season in the AHL only to get bumped up the lineup after the wjc's and then a month or so later he's in the NHL at 19 when he barely had much time in the AHL since 4th liners don't often play much in the AHL either.

I made up nothing...David Fischer played 4 full years of NCAA hockey followed by 2 full years in the ECHL, you can go verify that if you want.

How many more years do you think he needed before he finally broke through?

Another 5 years in the ECHL, followed by another 233 games like Plekanec in the AHL and he was finally going to fulfill the promise the Habs saw when they passed on Claude Giroux for him?

Again, see analogy about the mirror above.

There's no way ANYONE actually believes DLR was slow cooked.

Again, he played 33 freaking games as a 19 year old...anyone who actually believes, like you do, that that's what ruined his career is drinking the piss.

What the hell is wrong with you? Go pontificate by people who are actually impressed by your youtube channel.

You got the wrong one

 

[DAChampion]

There's no way ANYONE actually believes DLR was slow cooked.

DLR was rushed even before joining the Habs' organization. He was never in a position to develop his offensive game.

 

[417]

If some folks had their way, Reinbacher would make his NHL debut at 24.

Du n’importe quoi la

 

[LaP]

How many of these guy that barely played in the AHL played in the NHL at 18yo?
How many were playing in the NHL but weren’t having any impact.

Only Slaf graduated at 18 and he's a first overall nothing special bout it.

Shane Corson did 23 point sin his first season.
Richer did 37 points in his first season.
John LeClair 19 points in his first season.
Andrew Cassels 25 points in his first season.
Desjardins 14 points in 36 games in first season and 16 points in 55 games his 2nd season.

You guys are just not patient enough. You expect rookies or sophomore players to dominate. Many players do not dominate until they spent at least 2 full years in the NHL.

Mark Messier did 33 points in his first season and 63 points in his second season. That 63 points was in the high scoring 80ies playing with a stacked team (probably more like 40ish points today). Those were his two worst seasons until he turned 36.

Be patient.

 

[salbutera]

Only Slaf graduated at 18 and he's a first overall nothing special bout it.

Shane Corson did 23 point sin his first season.
Richer did 37 points in his first season.
John LeClair 19 points in his first season.
Andrew Cassels 25 points in his first season.
Desjardins 14 points in 36 games in first season and 16 points in 55 games his 2nd season.

You guys are just not patient enough. You expect rookies or sophomore players to dominate. Many players do not dominate until they spent at least 2 full years in the NHL.

Mark Messier did 33 points in his first season and 63 points in his second season. That 63 points was in the high scoring 80ies playing with a stacked team (probably more like 40ish points today). Those were his two worst seasons until he turned 36.

Be patient.

More like 25pts…. Gretzky only ended up w paltry 164pts that year…. Let’s not even delve into level of goaltending technical prowess back in 1981

 

[Andrei79]

Who said that was my benchmark? Lol you asked me to provide you with a list of players WHO WERE SLOW COOKED.

I proceeded to provide you with just that, you didn't ask for a detailed breakdown of each individual players specific situation as it relates to how ready they were for the NHL.

You asked for a very superficial analysis of players I qualified as being “slow cooked”. That's what I did.

I'm just holding up the mirror, don't blame me if you don't like the reflection.


I made up nothing...David Fischer played 4 full years of NCAA hockey followed by 2 full years in the ECHL, you can go verify that if you want.

How many more years do you think he needed before he finally broke through?

Another 5 years in the ECHL, followed by another 233 games like Plekanec in the AHL and he was finally going to fulfill the promise the Habs saw when they passed on Claude Giroux for him?

Again, see analogy about the mirror above.

Again, he played 33 freaking games as a 19 year old...anyone who actually believes, like you do, that that's what ruined his career is drinking the piss.

What the hell is wrong with you? Go pontificate by people who are actually impressed by your youtube channel.

You got the wrong one

This is what you said, what started it all

"They've also taken things slowly with many and it blew up in their face too". You can't dissociate the "taken things slowly" part from the "blew up in their face too" part.

Because, It's a weird statement, the part that says it "blew up" in their face. It sort of looks like you're implying that taking it slow was a cause ? It's hard to know, because you never really elaborate what you mean by it, other than as a counterpoint.

So, I'm still trying to understand from your list what point you're trying to make. Is anyone arguing that every player is going to make it ? Are you arguing that taking it slow actively harmed them ? If not, then this is just some random list without any meaning or context. I know you mentioned that no one ever points to spending too much time in the AHL as a detriment, but it's the sort of point that someone making it should actually try to support with something, anything. It might be hard to quantify, but someone could likely try to qualify it.

 

[dcyhabs]

I honestly don't think you can harm them as long as you're patient and work with them. There is in my humble opinion two main ways to harm a young player. Having him play in the NHL and throwing him under the bus after every mistakes like if he was a veteran. If you're going to do that keep him in the AHL. Keeping him in the AHL for more than two seasons without giving him games in the NHL so you can work with him to see what he has to improve in the upper league.

As long as you're not doing that the kid should be fine. Work with him. Be patient. Focus on what he has to improve and what he's doing well instead of being negative all the time. Do not act like he's a veteran until he has at least around 200 games of experience in the NHL. Be patient. Some guys figure it out after 1 year, other after 2 years and some can take up to 3 years. Work with the kids. Don't let them figure it out by themselves Marc Bergevin style.

I think you can harm them if you have Lefebvre, Therrien, and Bergevin making decisions. With reasonable coaching AHL time should not be a bad thing.

With the development team they had every level was bad for prospects.

 

[BLONG7]

More like 25pts…. Gretzky only ended up w paltry 164pts that year…. Let’s not even delve into level of goaltending technical prowess back in 1981

Oh man...............were those goalies bad!!

 

[morhilane]

I don't know wtf is going on this thread.

But it's making me hungry.

Cooking of course. Didn't you know that the draft was just how some people appraised meat and now people are arguing over how it should be seasoned and cooked.

 

[Toene]

If some folks had their way, Reinbacher would make his NHL debut at 24.

Du n’importe quoi la

Strawman.

You're on this crusade along with a certain Coach concerning development. Your thesis is that rushing a player to the NHL cannot cause any damage to a career, ever. It's a really specific and curious stance. Maybe I'm strawmaning your point myself, but it's been thousands of posts on this forum, dating back to last year, from countless posters, including yourself, and me on some occasions.

So now, the goalposts have moved to defining the term "slow-cooked" (I'm not saying you personally moved them, just that it's now the focus). I believe this is not a constructive debate, because the term is subjective, it doesnt have a clear-cut meaning. It's goddamned food analogy ffs lol.


I'm mostly concerned about the D+1 season of a player. Reinbacher is developing somewhere else in his D+1, and for me, even if it would be for just one year before asking him to join the club, it shows at least some sort of patience and caution from management.

On the other hand, you have #20. He was played right away and is struggling mightily. The dude is talented, but he's overthinking everything right now (probably because his confidence is shot).

There are obvious reasons why dressing a player at 18 years old in a crazy market like Montréal is not a good idea. The media, the pressure from the fans. Wouldn't you agree?

Now, what would be the downside of playing an 18 yo Euro 1st round pick in Laval at the start of his career, and reassessing every other week or month. Would it have been damaging to act cautiously, considering the history with KK and Galchenyuk (one is fine, one is not, but both have left and are of zero use to the Canadiens, and both were rushed at 18).

Seriously, what would be the downside? He'd be too good and get bored? Then... you call him up. Doing this backwards, though, is way more delicate. You risk affecting his confidence even more by sending him down.

For me it's not about the risk of having them bust. I think that it's very difficult to isolate the definite factors behind a failed prospect. It's about what is the most rational decision on day one of their D+1 year.