Prospect Info: David Reinbacher

[417]

I didn't say it doesn't count. Im asking you guys to define slow cooking and the timeline it takes to develop in another league.

40 games in one year doesnt seem like much to me at all. No one has done a good job to convince.

I guess the argument here is that David Reinbacher should be ready to step into an NHL lineups top 4 as soon as next year after he gets in his 40-50 game NLA season.

No. Nobody suggested anything like that.

Prospect Info: - Joshua Roy Part 2

When Subban was recalled, he was our best dman in the playoff. He never looked back and was a stud D for the rest of his career. Pacioretty had brief stint in the AHL. Lets hope Roy keeps it up and have a similar showing when he is called up. If Roy can have a similar 14 goals and 10 assist...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[DAChampion]

Prospect Info: - Joshua Roy Part 2

When Subban was recalled, he was our best dman in the playoff. He never looked back and was a stud D for the rest of his career. Pacioretty had brief stint in the AHL. Lets hope Roy keeps it up and have a similar showing when he is called up. If Roy can have a similar 14 goals and 10 assist...

forums.hfboards.com

You're being disingenuous, as you know that those are obviously different situations.

 

[Habs]

I think by D2 he meant #2 dman.

A number 2 dman is two way dman without elite offense, imo. Or a really good offensive dman with defensive holes. Reinbacher pre-draft projected to be the former.

A number 2 usually leads a second pair to balance things out, but will be played on the top pair in the most crucial game situations.

I've never seen the kid play, but I don't see much hype about him unless its this forum. Am I missing something?

 

[NotProkofievian]

I didn't say it doesn't count. Im asking you guys to define slow cooking and the timeline it takes to develop in another league.

40 games in one year doesnt seem like much to me at all. No one has done a good job to convince.

So these examples do count, or not?

I have defined this slow cooking before. If a player produces in another league a lot then they're probably ready for the NHL. If not, then they're probably not. What counts as a lot is defined by the best players. Bedard had an NHLe of 33, same with Fantilli and Michkov, Leo Carlsson had an NHLe of 23. Good first round picks tend to have NHLes in the high teens(Danielsson, Yager). Longterm projects tend to have lower NHLes.

The slow cooking takes as long as it takes for the player to reach this level. One season is all it took for Aho. It took a couple seasons for Hintz, and Kaprizov. Took a few more for Kuzmenko.

At least I'm not for overcooking prospects for its own sake. Once they hit this high 20's low 30's or more in another league, it's time to go to the NHL and see if they can make it.

 

[Andy]

So these examples do count, or not?

No one has convinced me that those single seasons in a different league was the difference between success and failure.

It's not that they don't count, I just don't think anyone done a good job at demonstrating why I should be convinced.

Also, there is an absence of common definition. For me, one single season in a different league doesnt really meet any standard of slow-cooking.

 

[SwiftyHab]

Can we send in an extraction team and pull Reinbacher out of that mess?

 

[417]

not one. No way was Chipchura slow cooked when he had a major injury in his draft year and then that the achillies injury that slowed him down even more.

Kyle Chipchura AHL games played = 205

If there's one player i can think of that was slow cooked in the last 20 years, it would be Pleks and that worked out well

Tomas Plekanec AHL games played = 233

80 of those games was because the NHL was in a season long lockout.

But you're going to sit here atop your throne and pontificate and tell me that my list, that you requested, was a waste of time and a joke?

Wild stuff.

 

[NotProkofievian]

No one has convinced me that those single seasons in a different league was the difference between success and failure.

It's not that they don't count, I just don't think anyone done a good job at demonstrating why I should be convinced.

You're not going to respond to the rest of the post? I do a lot of the persuading in the part that you clipped.

 

[417]

You're being disingenuous, as you know that those are obviously different situations.

What the hell is going on here today?

You said no one said that, I send a link to an actual debate on the very thing you're saying no one said...and now I'M being disingenuous?? lol

Anyways...I understand that Kyle Chipchura had a knee injury in junior that slowed him down, but so have many other players and they were able to overcome.

So back to the original point...Kyle Chipchura, former 1st round pick, slow cooked in the AHL (despite some people's objection), still never became anything other than a replacement level 4th line C.

Does that mean the AHL is a shit development league? Of course not...

But maybe if you look at his example and many others, it's not the wonder league for improvement that many of you think it is.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

No one has convinced me that those single seasons in a different league was the difference between success and failure.

It's not that they don't count, I just don't think anyone done a good job at demonstrating why I should be convinced.

Also, there is an absence of common definition. For me, one single season in a different league doesnt really meet any standard of slow-cooking.

Im confused why anyone needs to convince you? No one has convinced me that playing 12 mins a night in the NHL at 18 is a better option either. Here we are.

 

[Andy]

Im confused why anyone needs to convince you? No one has convinced me that playing 12 mins a night in the NHL at 18 is a better option either. Here we are.

Because Im not the one with really strong opinions here about how things should be. I've seen so many words spilled about how we ruined players by rushing them and not letting them slow cook, but I have not seen many people provide recent examples of many stars being slow cooked. It seems like slow cooking for stars in an exception rather than rule.

Im willing to be convinced and have my mind changed, but no one has really made a compelling argument.

You're not going to respond to the rest of the post? I do a lot of the persuading in the part that you clipped.

I didn't respond to the rest of your post because you didn't really provide a good definition of what slow-cooking is. There is no standard, basically you cited players who developed in various context, most of which spent year or less outside the nhl.

"The slow cooking takes as long as it takes for the player to reach this level" is not a definiton. It's such a broad statement that includes anyone who plays in the nhl at a high level.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Because Im not the one with really strong opinions here about how things should be. I've seen so many words spilled about how we ruined players by rushing them and not letting them slow cook, but I have not seen many people provide recent examples of stars being slow cooked.

Im willing to be convinced and have my mind changed, but no one has really made a compelling argument.

The only decent forwards on the team right now (2 good forwards on the entire team) were slow cooked. Ghule was also slow cooked.

In the end of course it doesn't mean anything since all players are different. I'm pretty sure the argument from most is that you can't harm your player by playing them in lower leagues until they dominate and move up , while you can harm them by rushing them in the NHL and giving them a role that they aren't expected to fill when they are fully developed (playing as a third liner)

Not only did we rush KK but we also lost him early because we burned his ELC years for absolutely NO good reason

 

[NotProkofievian]

I didn't respond to the rest of your post because you didn't really provide a good definition of what slow-cooking is. There is no standard, basically you cited players who developed in various context, most of which spent year or less outside the nhl.

"The slow cooking takes as long as it takes for the player to reach this level" is not a definiton. It's such a broad statement that includes anyone who plays in the nhl at a high level.

I gave you actual numbers. If a player achieves a level of production similar to what Bedard achieved in his draft year, I argue they are probably ready for the NHL. How on earth is that a broad statement?

 

[Hinterland]

Sometimes going back to Europe to “dominate” isn't always the best path.

Y’all don’t want to hear it though.

Reinbacher is doing an education that includes a part time job and studying for tests. Apparently there's a remote option but playing hockey on an AHL/NHL schedule with all the road trips etc doesn't make sense if you can't focus on hockey 100%. In Switzerland he can do it all in person, the schedule is much lighter and there's almost no travelling. Playing in Switzerland you can sleep in your own proper bed every single night of the year if you wish to do so.

He's gonna move to NA next year when he finished his education and will be able to focus on hockey.

 

[LaP]

Some people are still stuck in a long gone era where teams used to leave players in the minors for 3-4 years.

No teams do that these days other than for goalies.

The Tomas Plekanec type of development (which let's also remember was also influenced by a lockout) doesn't happen anymore

Did this era even exist? Or is it a myth?

Let's look at the darling of the "let them cook in the AHL crowd" which is the Detroit RW of the 80ies-90ies and early 2k.

Yzerman - did not play a single game in the AHL
Fedorov - did not play a single game i the AHL, played one season in Europe
Lidstrom - did not play a single game in the AHL, spent two seasons in Europe
Gallant - spent two season in the AHL but was a 6th round pick
Kozlov - spent half a season in the AHL and 1 years and a half in Europe
Shawn Burr - played 10 games in the AHL
Holmstrom - played 6 games in the AHL and spent two seasons in Europe
McCarty - spent 1 season in the AHL
Chiasson - spent 23 games in the AHL
Probert (a "goon" who could play drafted in the 3rd round) - spent 39 games in the AHL
Datsyuk - did not play in the AHL, spent two years in Europe
Martin Lapointe - played 75 games in the AHL over the span of 3 years (went back and forth)
Primeau - played half a season in the AHL
Klima - did not play in the AHL
Konstantinov - did not play in the AHL, spent two years in Europe
Zetterberg - did not play in the AHL, spent 3 years in Europe

If we want to be honest the Wings barely used the AHL. It was rare for one of their good young players to spend an entire year in the AHL. They would most of the time spend half a season in the AHL and then half in the NHL. They always tested their good kids a few games in the NHL pretty much every years (between 10 and 40).

Their European prospects spent between 1 and 2 years in Europe before coming over but that was probably more a product of the time than a strategy. A lot of their European players were late picks often in the 4th rounds and lower. Fedorov was 4th round, Lidstrom 3rd round, Datsyuk 6th round, Zetterberg 7th round, Konstantinov 11th round, ... Europe was pretty much a black box back then.

If we were the Red Wings of the 90ies Roy would likely play between 10 and 20 games in the NHL this season to test him. And according to many people on this board that would destroy his career

 

[morhilane]

Can we send in an extraction team and pull Reinbacher out of that mess?

You don't want him all sweet and tender after being slow cooked?


If you mean, the Kloten HC getting fired, that might be a good thing since the team was not playing well. Reinbacher is pretty much the team top D, he's not going to lose his minutes under the new coach whomever that is (I saw no news about that).

 

[417]

Reinbacher is doing an education that includes a part time job and studying for tests. Apparently there's a remote option but playing hockey on an AHL/NHL schedule with all the road trips etc doesn't make sense if you can't focus on hockey 100%. In Switzerland he can do it all in person, the schedule is much lighter and there's almost no travelling. Playing in Switzerland you can sleep in your own proper bed every single night of the year if you wish to do so.

He's gonna move to NA next year when he finished his education and will be able to focus on hockey.

I've got not no problem with them sending Reinbacher back to Switzerland, I think it was the right play. There wasn't really room for him to play in Laval with all of the players on D there and IMO, the most important thing a prospect needs is to play, regardless of the level he's at.

The situation with the coach and the team in general is unfortunate and just highlights that that option isn't always optimal, but sometimes these things are out of teams control.

 

[LaP]

I didn't say it doesn't count. Im asking you guys to define slow cooking and the timeline it takes to develop in another league.

40 games in one year doesnt seem like much to me at all. No one has done a good job to convince.

Hey i was not good enough for Electronical Engineering at University but i spent 6 more months in College studying general physics and boom bro i became an A+ student overnight The whole idea that half a season amount to anything is very weird to me. A full complete year sure yeah.

I was not ready when i started University. I was not mature enough. It took me two years off working a minimum salary job before i finally understood and then came back to finish my program. I highly question whatever half a year change anything personally.

 

[salbutera]

Because Im not the one with really strong opinions here about how things should be. I've seen so many words spilled about how we ruined players by rushing them and not letting them slow cook, but I have not seen many people provide recent examples of many stars being slow cooked. It seems like slow cooking for stars in an exception rather than rule.

Im willing to be convinced and have my mind changed, but no one has really made a compelling argument.


I didn't respond to the rest of your post because you didn't really provide a good definition of what slow-cooking is. There is no standard, basically you cited players who developed in various context, most of which spent year or less outside the nhl.

"The slow cooking takes as long as it takes for the player to reach this level" is not a definiton. It's such a broad statement that includes anyone who plays in the nhl at a high level.

IMO more & more prospects are being slow cooked at NHL level simply due to cap or budgetary constraints for teams.

I’ve never bought into the concept of “development” to begin with, to me it’s all about when a prospect matures for the NHL level be that physical, emotional or some combination of both.

 

[417]

Did this era even exist? Or is it a myth?

lol i'm sure it was a much more regular occurrence in the 70s and 80s...I always hear/read about stories from old Habs fans who talk about the Nova Scotia Voyageurs and all of the great players who went through there.

In more modern times though, especially since the advent of the salary cap...I think it's largely mythical.

Teams don't send their prospects to their AHL affiliate for 3+ years if they're good enough. With the salary crunch, having guys on ELCs who can contribute offsets some of the higher salaried players which are inevitable.

Let's look at the darling of the "let them cook in the AHL crowd" which is the Detroit RW of the 80ies-90ies and early 2k.

Yzerman - did not play a single game in the AHL
Fedorov - did not play a single game i the AHL, played one season in Europe
Lidstrom - did not play a single game in the AHL, spent two seasons in Europe
Gallant - spent two season in the AHL but was a 6th round pick
Kozlov - spent half a season in the AHL and 1 years and a half in Europe
Shawn Burr - played 10 games in the AHL
Holmstrom - played 6 games in the AHL and spent two seasons in Europe
McCarty - spent 1 season in the AHL
Chiasson - spent 23 games in the AHL
Probert (a "goon" who could play drafted in the 3rd round) - spent 39 games in the AHL
Datsyuk - did not play in the AHL, spent two years in Europe
Martin Lapointe - played 75 games in the AHL over the span of 3 years (went back and forth)
Primeau - played half a season in the AHL
Klima - did not play in the AHL
Konstantinov - did not play in the AHL, spent two years in Europe
Zetterberg - did not play in the AHL, spent 3 years in Europe

If we want to be honest the Wings barely used the AHL. It was rare for one of their good young players to spend an entire year in the AHL. They would most of the time spend half a season in the AHL and then half in the NHL. They always tested their good kids a few games in the NHL pretty much every years (between 10 and 40).

Their European prospects spent between 1 and 2 years in Europe before coming over but that was probably more a product of the time than a strategy. A lot of their European players were late picks often in the 4th rounds and lower. Fedorov was 4th round, Lidstrom 3rd round, Datsyuk 6th round, Zetterberg 7th round, Konstantinov 11th round, ... Europe was pretty much a black box back then.

If we were the Red Wings of the 90ies Roy would likely play between 10 and 20 games in the NHL this season to test him. And according to many people on this board that would destroy his career

Speaking of "slow cooking"...you're sizzling right now!

Agreed 100%

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Because Im not the one with really strong opinions here about how things should be. I've seen so many words spilled about how we ruined players by rushing them and not letting them slow cook, but I have not seen many people provide recent examples of many stars being slow cooked. It seems like slow cooking for stars in an exception rather than rule.

Im willing to be convinced and have my mind changed, but no one has really made a compelling argument.


I didn't respond to the rest of your post because you didn't really provide a good definition of what slow-cooking is. There is no standard, basically you cited players who developed in various context, most of which spent year or less outside the nhl.

"The slow cooking takes as long as it takes for the player to reach this level" is not a definiton. It's such a broad statement that includes anyone who plays in the nhl at a high level.

Why would you limit this to stars? Most stars don’t need a lot of AHL time. Not exactly an enlightening statement.

Which stars of ours are we referring to?

 

[DAChampion]

Because Im not the one with really strong opinions here about how things should be. I've seen so many words spilled about how we ruined players by rushing them and not letting them slow cook, but I have not seen many people provide recent examples of many stars being slow cooked. It seems like slow cooking for stars in an exception rather than rule.

Im willing to be convinced and have my mind changed, but no one has really made a compelling argument.


I didn't respond to the rest of your post because you didn't really provide a good definition of what slow-cooking is. There is no standard, basically you cited players who developed in various context, most of which spent year or less outside the nhl.

"The slow cooking takes as long as it takes for the player to reach this level" is not a definiton. It's such a broad statement that includes anyone who plays in the nhl at a high level.

I think slow cooking is the idea that sometimes a player is good enough to graduate, but they do not. After some time, the window passes, perhaps they lose interest, or incorporate lazy habits etc.

In the same way that development fails if a level is too hard, it can fail if a level of development is too easy. That will apply to any skill in life not just hockey. For example if your kid is taking piano lessons, you want him to try harder and harder songs every year. If he's still trying Sherwood Forest in year five, then either music is not for him or you failed by never challenging him.

During the Bergevin administration there were probably some cases of slow cooking. Beaulieu and Tinordi, for example, did very well in their first year of AHL, and were left there for ages so that Bergevin could play Bryan Allen, Mike Weaver, etc. Leblanc was also sent back to the AHL after he did very well in the NHL in 2012. All three proceeded to rot. Bergevin did not have plans for his prospects, and he was always going out of his way to accumulate as many sub replacement -level veterans as possible.

ETA: Unless slow cooking means something else, and maybe I'm referring to overcooking, burning, pressure cooking, steaming, etc ?

 

[LaP]

lol i'm sure it was a much more regular occurrence in the 70s and 80s...I always hear/read about stories from old Habs fans who talk about the Nova Scotia Voyageurs and all of the great players who went through there.

In more modern times though, especially since the advent of the salary cap...I think it's largely mythical.

Teams don't send their prospects to their AHL affiliate for 3+ years if they're good enough. With the salary crunch, having guys on ELCs who can contribute offsets some of the higher salaried players which are inevitable.

Speaking of "slow cooking"...you're sizzling right now!

Agreed 100%

That's not my recollection in the 80ies at all. Maybe in the 70ies? But we are far back then.

Shayne Corson - did not play in the AHL
Richer - played 12 games in the AHL
Chelios - did not play in the AHL
Carbonneau - played two seasons in the AHL but let's be honest he was a 3rd round pick
Svoboda - did not play in the AHL and did not stay in Europe either
Claude Lemieux - played 58 games in the AHL
Mark Hunter - did not play in the AHL
Gilbert Delorme - did not play in the AHL
Tom Kurvers - did not play in the AHL
Sergio Momesso - played 6 games in the AHL
Patrick Roy - played 1 game in the AHL
Ghilchrist - played 1 season in the AHL
Tom Chorske - played 59 games in the AHL
Odelein - played two seasons in the AHL but let's be honest he was a 7th round pick
Lumme - played 26 games in the AHL, spent two years in Europe
Cassels - played 55 games in the AHL
LeClair - played 8 games in the AHL (totally busted his career)
Desjardins - played 3 games in the AHL
Schneider - played 28 games in the AHL

My recollection when i was young in the 80ies and early 90ies is that we graduated kids very quickly and retired over the hill vets very quickly too to replace them with kids. All this changed in the middle of the 90ies after Savard was fired.

It's a myth that we used to let kids cook in the AHL and ice 35+ years old players (in modern hockey). In 93 there was only two players over 30 in the lineup in playoffs (Savard and Carbo) and in 86 there was only two players over 30 in the lineup in playoffs (Robinson and Gainey). We iced young team made of players we drafted. But we were patient with kids. Not always but certainly more than today.

 

[Redux91]

I can't believe we gotta go through all this SHIT again my god lol

 

[Hinterland]

I've got not no problem with them sending Reinbacher back to Switzerland, I think it was the right play. There wasn't really room for him to play in Laval with all of the players on D there and IMO, the most important thing a prospect needs is to play, regardless of the level he's at.

The situation with the coach and the team in general is unfortunate and just highlights that that option isn't always optimal, but sometimes these things are out of teams control.

I don't know if it's unfortunate. I think to some extent it was to be expected. Jeff Tomlinson was extremely popular and the players were playing for him, the team was consistently overperforming thanks to Tomlinson. So when he was forced to step down for health reasons and the team lost lots of regulars on defense this was going to be a mission impossible for any coach to take over. Of Kloten's top4 defensemen from 22/23, Reinbacher attended NHL camp as well got hurt right afterwards, top penalty killer Jesper Peltonen left for Lugano, Lucas Ekestahl Jonsson was in Fleming's dog house and finally left the team after getting scratched several times and that left just 36 yo Steve Kellenberger. Difficult to win games like that. Upfront, the new imports are nowhere near as good as Ruotsalainen who left for Lugano as well. Kloten does have significantly less money at hand than most NL teams. They're gonna lose some of their best players year after year making it difficult to stay competitive. I think you need a charismatic and highly popular coach like Tomlinson to be successful in such an environment.

A bit of adversity has never hurt good players. Also, it's the GM and the assistant coaches taking over so it's not like it's a completely new situation for Reinbacher. He'll continue to play heavy minutes in Kloten.