Player Discussion David Quinn

[TheBloodyNine]

I think the issue boils down to this - Quinn wants to win at the expense of the development of our young players. I'd much rather lose with our young players playing a big role than win with them sitting on the bench.

I mean, it's game 7 of the season and you're cutting down to 3 lines? Give our young players a shot to do something out there in that moment. If they lose, fine - but at least they were given an opportunity. Quinn is pressing to win games.

 

[Irishguy42]

I don't think "winning games" and "develop youth" is an either/or issue here...

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I don't think "winning games" and "develop youth" is an either/or issue here...

It is when you are not allowing your young players to actually play and try to win games. That game yesterday was like Quinn thought he was in game 7 of a playoff series, he was desperately trying to win that game. It's fine to lose, it's not fine to lose with Brendan Smith getting more time than Andersson and Kakko, I don't care how good the former played and I don't care how much the latter is struggling.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I don't think "winning games" and "develop youth" is an either/or issue here...

No, but "playing veterans based on seniority" and "develop youth" don't really go hand in hand.

At the same time I agree that "playing the kids" and "develop youth" aren't mutually exclusive either. Prospects don't only get better if they play 15 minutes a night. But in this case there are specific examples as to why the decisions made by Quinn are unpopular.

Moving Kreider from 2LW to 1RW made 0 sense
Playing Lias 7 minutes a night after he earned a top-9 role based on pre-season makes no sense
Playing Kakko 9 minutes because "it's the flow of the game" makes no sense

 

[Raspewtin]

i think half of the roster complaining disappears once you stop misconstruing line shuffling and trying to find winning combinations for “promotions” and “demotions”

 

[AlternateSideParking]

I think the issue boils down to this - Quinn wants to win at the expense of the development of our young players. I'd much rather lose with our young players playing a big role than win with them sitting on the bench.

I mean, it's game 7 of the season and you're cutting down to 3 lines? Give our young players a shot to do something out there in that moment. If they lose, fine - but at least they were given an opportunity. Quinn is pressing to win games.

Could be a mandate from upstairs — play the vets to showcase them with decent stats, sell off at the deadline, then play mostly kids in top roles for the rest of the season.
We saw that in 2017 and 2018. Lias played two more mins a game in March than the rest of the season, Hajek played good minutes before he was hurt.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Could be a mandate from upstairs — play the vets to showcase them with decent stats, sell off at the deadline, then play mostly kids in top roles for the rest of the season.
We saw that in 2017 and 2018. Lias played two more mins a game in March than the rest of the season, Hajek played good minutes before he was hurt.

I doubt that the management of this team is valuing a 3rd round pick over the long term development of their already drafted players. This also isn't March, it's October.

 

[Raspewtin]

Outside of a few specific examples I don't think his usage has been that bad tbh.

Howden, Andersson, and Staal are annoying the f*** out of me but that's really it.

 

[JimmyG89]

I'm seeing this as a common theme following last night's game, but rarely is it mentioned that Kakko was struggling pretty bad out there.

Panarin, Zibanejad, and Trouba cannot play less than 10 minutes in a game, that would be in excusable.

Kakko, the 18 year old rookie working through some adversity, absolutely can.

Actually Kakko looked fine last night, but it's more than this. He goes out there, gets a PP assist in the 2nd period and basically doesn't play much after that. Maybe that would have gotten him going, but you'll never know.

It's more like why Strome and Howden are getting gifted huge minutes, regardless of play. Even Brooks understands that this isn't how it should be.



For once, he's right. If Andersson is going to get 5 min of 5v5 play, why is he here? What's the point of that. Boo Nieves can do that. Howden can't play the role he currently has. His minutes have actually come down, which is a good thing for him. 13 minutes is better for him. Would like to see Andersson get there at some point, but he doesn't get the same opportunity, in spite of being similar or better than Howden most games.

We also need to set some lines. They change every period at this point. Put some stuff together and go from there. Have to think there will be a roster move at some point, even if it is adding in another forward. If they aren't calling up Chytil and throwing him on the 2nd line, probably should call up someone like Nieves and go 12/6 for a few games. Smith on D and could rotate out Hajek for a game. Maybe Marc Staal could finally sit a game too.

 

[True Blue]

I think the issue boils down to this - Quinn wants to win at the expense of the development of our young players. I'd much rather lose with our young players playing a big role than win with them sitting on the bench.

They all want to win. Management, Upper management, players. Quinn is developing players and trying to win. But in the case of the former, there are things that he places a premium on. And those are the non-negotiable to him.

Look, I fully admit that the Andersson thing is a bit baffling to me. But that aside, there is not much more that can be done if you want to be able to have accountability. This roster is YOUNG. And some of the cog vets (am looking at you Kreider and Sjeki) are not performing to snuff. They (and I am presuming here that the "they" includes Gorton and JD) want for players like Chytil to show success and get confidence so when they do bring him up, there is no need to send him down. They also want the Kravstovs o& Lindgerns of the world to develop at their own pace. Not at the pace that is the expectation of a fanbase that has convinced themselves during the summer that this is somehow a playoff team. As such, what is Quinn really left with? Griping about 4th line players (Andersson aside) is putting lipstick on a pig.

The team right now is a one trick pony for offense as it involves one line. Secondary scoring, which was supposed to be from a Kakko and a Kreider, is simply not there. The Lias issue aside, NO ONE is stepping up to be 2C. Buch is back to being inconsistent. The defense is comprised mainly of 2 rookies, one sophomore who is still learning to play defense, one vet that is not only miscast as a top pairing guy but is seriously regressing and a vet that is running on empty. What coaching decisions are going to make a difference? Who is going to do better?

 

[TheBloodyNine]

They all want to win. Management, Upper management, players. Quinn is developing players and trying to win. But in the case of the former, there are things that he places a premium on. And those are the non-negotiable to him.

Look, I fully admit that the Andersson thing is a bit baffling to me. But that aside, there is not much more that can be done if you want to be able to have accountability. This roster is YOUNG. And some of the cog vets (am looking at you Kreider and Sjeki) are not performing to snuff. They (and I am presuming here that the "they" includes Gorton and JD) want for players like Chytil to show success and get confidence so when they do bring him up, there is no need to send him down. They also want the Kravstovs o& Lindgerns of the world to develop at their own pace. Not at the pace that is the expectation of a fanbase that has convinced themselves during the summer that this is somehow a playoff team. As such, what is Quinn really left with? Griping about 4th line players (Andersson aside) is putting lipstick on a pig.

The team right now is a one trick pony for offense as it involves one line. Secondary scoring, which was supposed to be from a Kakko and a Kreider, is simply not there. The Lias issue aside, NO ONE is stepping up to be 2C. Buch is back to being inconsistent. The defense is comprised mainly of 2 rookies, one sophomore who is still learning to play defense, one vet that is not only miscast as a top pairing guy but is seriously regressing and a vet that is running on empty. What coaching decisions are going to make a difference? Who is going to do better?

If that was true than Marc Staal would not be in the lineup. Or Brett Howden. It's "Rules for thee, but not for me" with Quinn. There's a difference between demanding accountability and crucifying every young player for every little mistake they make. It's not working. Buch is already back in his doghouse again. Kakko should not be played less than Brendan Smith, I don't care how good or bad either has played. That's a recipe that has gotten us to 0-5 in our last 5 games. I think it's safe to say that whatever Quinn is doing ain't working.

 

[JimmyG89]

Quinn needs to start doing to opposite of his instincts at this rate

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

He's trying to win games, I get that. What I don't get is the Anderson thing, at all.

 

[mulli25]

Actually Kakko looked fine last night, but it's more than this. He goes out there, gets a PP assist in the 2nd period and basically doesn't play much after that. Maybe that would have gotten him going, but you'll never know.

It's more like why Strome and Howden are getting gifted huge minutes, regardless of play. Even Brooks understands that this isn't how it should be.



For once, he's right. If Andersson is going to get 5 min of 5v5 play, why is he here? What's the point of that. Boo Nieves can do that. Howden can't play the role he currently has. His minutes have actually come down, which is a good thing for him. 13 minutes is better for him. Would like to see Andersson get there at some point, but he doesn't get the same opportunity, in spite of being similar or better than Howden most games.

We also need to set some lines. They change every period at this point. Put some stuff together and go from there. Have to think there will be a roster move at some point, even if it is adding in another forward. If they aren't calling up Chytil and throwing him on the 2nd line, probably should call up someone like Nieves and go 12/6 for a few games. Smith on D and could rotate out Hajek for a game. Maybe Marc Staal could finally sit a game too.

He didn't. His 1st period in particular was pretty bad.

No doubt there's an argument to be made that Howden and some others are getting too much ice, but that doesn't change the fact that Kakko hasn't exactly earned a ton of ice either, especially 5 on 5.

Arguing that the coaches seemingly arbitrary distribution of ice time isn't the same arbitrary method you'd use isn't a great argument.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

The only thing I can think of re: Lias is that he’s a complete dickhead. Otherwise, I don’t get the continued suppressing of him.

 

[RGY]

I am not a fan of Ruff but you really think coaching is the problem with our defense?

AK, on the defensive side of things yes. The team defense in there own end is atrocious. Multiple occasions last night where it was 5v5 but felt like a PP with one extra man open. Just completely botched coverage. No one knows who is covering who. The switching is awful.

We have three new defenseman on the team and multiple new forwards, with some carryover of guys who were not here the full season last year, and yet the same issues exist. That tells me its the coaching. I mean what does Ruff do? Has this team gotten any better defensively under him? Skjei looks like his career progression has stagnated. Its infuriating to watch them leave men open all over in their own end. They let opposing forwards hangout around the net with no punishment. Loose pucks all over.

Lindy Ruff should have been fired with AV.

 

[JimmyG89]

He didn't. His 1st period in particular was pretty bad.

I mean, the entire f***ing team shit the bed in the 1st period. I'd like to think the 18 year old #2 pick wasn't the only culprit when it came to that. Don't know about that, but that's just me.

Arguing that the coaches seemingly arbitrary distribution of ice time isn't the same arbitrary method you'd use isn't a great argument.

Actually, arguing that players that are getting hammered in their current role, while another isn't doing great in their own, but better than the other guys should get a shot at an elevated role would be ideal.

Andersson gets to play primarily with Smith and McKegg/Haley while Howden gets to play with Kreider, Kakko, Buch, Fast, and get PP2 time, all while not being any better than him is something to behold. It's just a suggestion, but thinking that you cannot elevate your 21 yo 4th line center over your 21 year old 3rd line center, in spite of similar play with less than optimal linemates than the other has had over the course of this and last season makes you start to think the rules don't apply to everyone.

 

[Anzi]

He didn't. His 1st period in particular was pretty bad.

No doubt there's an argument to be made that Howden and some others are getting too much ice, but that doesn't change the fact that Kakko hasn't exactly earned a ton of ice either, especially 5 on 5.

Arguing that the coaches seemingly arbitrary distribution of ice time isn't the same arbitrary method you'd use isn't a great argument.

I thought that Kakko was fairly invisible in the 1st. Didn't create anything offensively but didn't give up much defensively either so overall just ate up a few minutes without affecting much. Compared to the rest of the team that was getting destroyed, that might have been preferable.

 

[Raspewtin]

I think blaming how young the team is is a bad excuse tbh

Performance has been uneven throughout the whole line-up and different age groups. If you're into possession and expected goal metrics, there's no consistency (from the limited data we have) between ELC players and veterans. It's a whole line-up failure. The closest to consistent we've had is Panarin-Zib and Fox. There's no easy answer here, not even a good 2C imo.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

I think blaming how young the team is is a bad excuse tbh

Performance has been uneven throughout the whole line-up and different age groups. If you're into possession and expected goal metrics, there's no consistency (from the limited data we have) between ELC players and veterans. It's a whole line-up failure. The closest to consistent we've had is Panarin-Zib and Fox. There's no easy answer here, not even a good 2C imo.

I hate to say it, but I think removing Staal goes a LOOOOONG way toward solving the problem. He drags down the entire team given a) how bad his play is and b) how much he plays. Replace those minutes with a league average LD and everything throughout the lineup bumps up.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

I took at look at JD's coaching moves history, and he was more patient with Richards in Columbus (three full years, then fired early in the fourth) than he was with the Blues (Kitchen, Andy Murray and Payne all were fired in-season, with Payne after only 13 games in his third season). At least we know he's not averse to canning a guy early.

JD's team-building mandate likely is in line with Gorton and blessed off by Dolan -- ease the kids in no matter what the standings say, promote accordingly based on production, increase their roles as the season progresses. I'm pretty sure JD wrote this year off as a rebuild considering his Shattenkirk move, the inheritance of Smith and Staal (and to a degree Lundqvist), plus two valuable UFA in Kreider and Fast. He probably targets 2022 or 2023 as his contending year.

The Blues missed the playoffs in four of his first five years, and lost in Round 1 the other. Wasn't until 2012 when they became a powerhouse, and five of their top-six scorers in 2012 were original Blues draft picks between the ages of 22 and 27.

With Columbus, he missed the playoff three of his first four years and lost in Round 1 in the other. Davidson's FO history shows that he's generally patient with younger players and probably advised his coaches to do the same, unless they produced enough to get a promotion.

Look at his Blues tenure.

Perron averaged 13:07 his rookie year.
Backes 13:25
Berglund 14:43
Pietrangelo 16:33 his first two 9-game call-ups
Schwarz 12:22
Cole 16:46

Then with CBJ

Johansen 16:05
Jenner 14:05
Wenneberg 15:37
Anderson 12:01
Dano 13:15


Now the NYR

Fox 16:34
Hajek 15:29
Kakko 14:34

Last year (pre-JD)

Howden 14:56
Chytil 13:47
Andersson 10:43

I don't know. Even if Quinn is fired, I don't see these kids hitting major benchmarks for another season or two.

 

[Edge]

I took at look at JD's coaching moves history, and he was more patient with Richards in Columbus (three full years, then fired early in the fourth) than he was with the Blues (Kitchen, Andy Murray and Payne all were fired in-season, with Payne after only 13 games in his third season). At least we know he's not averse to canning a guy early.

JD's team-building mandate likely is in line with Gorton and blessed off by Dolan -- ease the kids in no matter what the standings say, promote accordingly based on production, increase their roles as the season progresses. I'm pretty sure JD wrote this year off as a rebuild considering his Shattenkirk move, the inheritance of Smith and Staal (and to a degree Lundqvist), plus two valuable UFA in Kreider and Fast. He probably targets 2022 or 2023 as his contending year.

The Blues missed the playoffs in four of his first five years, and lost in Round 1 the other. Wasn't until 2012 when they became a powerhouse, and five of their top-six scorers in 2012 were original Blues draft picks between the ages of 22 and 27.

With Columbus, he missed the playoff three of his first four years and lost in Round 1 in the other. Davidson's FO history shows that he's generally patient with younger players and probably advised his coaches to do the same, unless they produced enough to get a promotion.

Look at his Blues tenure.

Perron averaged 13:07 his rookie year.
Backes 13:25
Berglund 14:43
Pietrangelo 16:33 his first two 9-game call-ups
Schwarz 12:22
Cole 16:46

Then with CBJ

Johansen 16:05
Jenner 14:05
Wenneberg 15:37
Anderson 12:01
Dano 13:15


Now the NYR

Fox 16:34
Hajek 15:29
Kakko 14:34

Last year (pre-JD)

Howden 14:56
Chytil 13:47
Andersson 10:43

I don't know. Even if Quinn is fired, I don't see these kids hitting major benchmarks for another season or two.

I'd agree with all of this. The only thing I'd add is that people need to know/remember that Quinn is not acting in a vacuum or going rogue. Everyone is on the same page with the approach --- Quinn, Gorton, JD, etc.

From multiple conversations, with multiple people, this is an organization that's looking at the 2020s, specifically the mid 2020 - aka post expansion, and potentially post work stoppage.

So, in a nutshell, if you don't like what Quinn is doing, then you also don't like what Gorton and JD are doing. Because this all part of a bigger strategic plan that all parties have agreed upon.

 

[True Blue]

If that was true than Marc Staal would not be in the lineup. Or Brett Howden.[ /QUOTE]
Clearly both of those players have earned the coaches trust because they do the non-negotiables.

It's "Rules for thee, but not for me" with Quinn. There's a difference between demanding accountability and crucifying every young player for every little mistake they make. It's not working.

Not true as I believe they are all held to the same standards. What glaring lazy plays did Howden make? And Staal is on the team and they feel that players like Lindgren need more development. Staal is a professional and provides leadership. Who is banging down the door to replace him? Do I wish there was someone better, sure I do. But I am not moving Smith and if Quinn, Gorton, JD et all think that Lindgren is better suited marinating in Hartford, I would like to think that between the three of them there is consensus.

What is not working? Who is rebelling?

Buch is already back in his doghouse again. Kakko should not be played less than Brendan Smith, I don't care how good or bad either has played. That's a recipe that has gotten us to 0-5 in our last 5 games. I think it's safe to say that whatever Quinn is doing ain't working.[ /QUOTE]
Have you seen the way Buch has been playing? His laziness has been apparent and he should be in the doghouse. If played the same way he did down the stretch, this would not have happened to him. He as handed the top line spot. His laziness removed him from it.

Kakko? Really? I love his potential. But his play right now is "meh". Smith is not on his level, but does kill penalties. Can Kakko show something first before we discuss how much an 18 year old should or should not be getting?

What Quinn is doing is not working......what is it that is not working? Results? Have you honestly seen the roster?

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I'd agree with all of this. The only thing I'd add is that people need to know/remember that Quinn is not acting in a vacuum or going rogue. Everyone is on the same page with the approach --- Quinn, Gorton, JD, etc.

From multiple conversations, with multiple people, this is an organization that's looking at the 2020s, specifically the mid 2020 - aka post expansion, and potentially post work stoppage.

So, in a nutshell, if you don't like what Quinn is doing, then you also don't like what Gorton and JD are doing. Because this all part of a bigger strategic plan that all parties have agreed upon.

Really? Seems odd, when you consider Panarin and Zib will both be in their mid 30s by the mid 20s? Is the plan then to be awful this year and next so they can draft another two centers? Something doesn't seem right with the people you've spoken with.

 

[Edge]

Really? Seems odd, when you consider Panarin and Zib will both be in their mid 30s by the mid 20s? Is the plan then to be awful this year and next so they can draft another two centers? Something doesn't seem right with the people you've spoken with.

I'm not really sure how you got that takeaway from what I typed. Let me approach this a different way and hopefully clarify.

The plan isn't about sucking for two years just to draft another two centers. Nor is there concern about having a scenario where Panarin and Zibanejad are 31 or 32, on a roster with with Kakko and whoever at age 23, and some of the other talents in this organization in the 24-28 range.

The plan is about development, but at this stage, that also likely means this team still loses quite a bit. On the flip side, if the young players put pieces together sooner, and make a push, the Rangers aren't necessarily going to fight that either.