Player Discussion David Quinn: Part V

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I made a post about it in the recent past so here's a gist.

Zibanejad, Buchnevich, Kreider & Strome are on PK. Panarin & Chytil don't kill penalties. So after the Rangers finish PK, Quinn puts Panarin with Chytil and one of RW that didn't PK either - Blackwell or Kakko - to have a shift there. Lafreniere then either misses a shift or get's one on the next line. Similar adjustments happen after PP.

Is this random? Maybe it looks this way to the basic fan but coaching staff definitely have a plan they try to execute and I'm sure they practice it. Then there's something that ALL coaches do based on how certain players have something going in a particular game or vice versa - some players are struggling and based on the score something needs to change.

I'm still sticking with my black socks theory...

 

[duhmetreE]

They beat Philly who was putting forth one of the worst efforts I’ve - ever - seen.

They beat Washington, which they’d done twice with Quinn behind the bench this year.

They beat the Sabres on a 13 game losing streak.

Winning is great and I’m happy they’re doing it. I also don’t love Quinn and am not even opposed to replacing him. But let’s be realistic, this little patch of games isn’t some incredible turnaround yet. They beat two absolutely terrible teams and split a pair against a good team they’d already beaten this season.

We haven't had a zombie game yet. That's the difference.

 

[kovazub94]

I'm still sticking with my black socks theory...

Holes in black socks, i.e. black holes?

 

[haveandare]

We haven't had a zombie game yet. That's the difference.

It’s only been 4 games, half against absolutely terrible opponents, the other half against a team we’ve played well all year. Coaching could be contributing but it’s not clear that it is. I do think keeping lines steady helps.

 

[duhmetreE]

It’s only been 4 games, half against absolutely terrible opponents, the other half against a team we’ve played well all year. Coaching could be contributing but it’s not clear that it is. I do think keeping lines steady helps.

It doesn't matter who we played previously. We were coming out flat regularly. Some games we couldn't break out of the funk

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Holes in black socks, i.e. black holes?

How dare you. Went Costco two weeks ago. No holes....

 

[kovazub94]

How dare you. Went Costco two weeks ago. No holes....

You've been working from home for a year so you don't need new black socks from Costco.

 

[aufheben]

They beat Philly who was putting forth one of the worst efforts I’ve - ever - seen.

They beat Washington, which they’d done twice with Quinn behind the bench this year.

They beat the Sabres on a 13 game losing streak.

Winning is great and I’m happy they’re doing it. I also don’t love Quinn and am not even opposed to replacing him. But let’s be realistic, this little patch of games isn’t some incredible turnaround yet. They beat two absolutely terrible teams and split a pair against a good team they’d already beaten this season.

It’s like one of those internet things that starts as a parody but then people start believing it.

This is from one of those games where they “didn’t come out flat”:

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

You've been working from home for a year so you don't need new black socks from Costco.

I don't. But the Rangers do.

 

[itsPLkielbasa]

What happens if Quinn comes back and the Rangers go into turtle mode again and lose a few games while getting completely outplayed?

Does he get the boot?

They showed some life these last few games under Knoblauch.

 

[duhmetreE]

It’s like one of those internet things that starts as a parody but then people start believing it.

This is from one of those games where they “didn’t come out flat”:

View attachment 411894

what game was that? last game?

so we came out flat in the second game against Washington?

coming out flat = xG is that your take?

yes it's a parody. This team has been prepared every game

 

[haveandare]

what game was that? last game?

so we came out flat in the second game against Washington?

coming out flat = xG is that your take?

yes it's a parody. This team has been prepared every game

I think the issue is that “coming out flat” seems to be a subjective, eye test thing. Is there any objective provable case for it? Being heavily outshot to start? Being heavily out possessed to start? Being caved in on xG? Has this happened? Confirmation bias exists - if someone is looking for proof Quinn is bad or Knoblauch is good, they’re more likely to interpret subjective things like this in a way that support that.

I’m open to the idea that they come out flat often with Quinn and haven’t since he’s been out but I don’t find people’s subjective takes on that to be very convincing.

 

[aufheben]

There’s rightfully been a lot of discussion about systems this year after replacing Lindy Ruff with his antithesis Jacques Martin.

This [crazy] dude @ShutdownLine watches a lot of NHL games and tracks Zone Entries, Shots/Scoring Chances, Passes/Shot Assists, Zone Exits, among other things, and has been doing it for at least four years at this point(?) While inherently imperfect, it’s pretty interesting, and fortunately he decided to do it for the 2020-21 season too.

2021 NHL Season Workbook

Rush vs. Forecheck
Percentage of team's total shots that come off the rush vs. the forecheck.
Shots off faceoff wins, & direct turnovers are not counted in these totals.

 

[duhmetreE]

I think the issue is that “coming out flat” seems to be a subjective, eye test thing. Is there any objective provable case for it? Being heavily outshot to start? Being heavily out possessed to start? Being caved in on xG? Has this happened? Confirmation bias exists - if someone is looking for proof Quinn is bad or Knoblauch is good, they’re more likely to interpret subjective things like this in a way that support that.

I’m open to the idea that they come out flat often with Quinn and haven’t since he’s been out but I don’t find people’s subjective takes on that to be very convincing.

We all know when this team looks like shit. It has happened a lot more this year than the past two. I have not logged the games or periods. Whoever wants, can go back through GDT's.... you'll know when those periods/games occurred.

It was a tight playoff-type game against Washington. I'm sure there's some correlation with 'limited scoring chances' and 'coming out flat'... That game was not it.

There's no bad or good here. I don't have an opinion on Knoblauch, this isn't his team or system. The observation I have is, that the team has seemed more consistent ( in the limited games ) with Knoblauch behind them. I still hate the PP. I do not form my opinion from graphs. Confirmation bias is a bigger problem for the people of the graph. My opinion is formed during the game. The people of the graph form their opinions, pre and post game.

We made a lot of mistakes against Buffalo and I pointed out we played down to our opponent.

 

[aufheben]

I think the issue is that “coming out flat” seems to be a subjective, eye test thing. Is there any objective provable case for it? Being heavily outshot to start? Being heavily out possessed to start? Being caved in on xG? Has this happened? Confirmation bias exists - if someone is looking for proof Quinn is bad or Knoblauch is good, they’re more likely to interpret subjective things like this in a way that support that.

I’m open to the idea that they come out flat often with Quinn and haven’t since he’s been out but I don’t find people’s subjective takes on that to be very convincing.

They also blew a 2-goal-lead 5:00 into the 3rd period against Buffalo lol, and despite winning did not really outplay Washington that game at all.

 

[Tawnos]

I think the issue is that “coming out flat” seems to be a subjective, eye test thing. Is there any objective provable case for it? Being heavily outshot to start? Being heavily out possessed to start? Being caved in on xG? Has this happened? Confirmation bias exists - if someone is looking for proof Quinn is bad or Knoblauch is good, they’re more likely to interpret subjective things like this in a way that support that.

I’m open to the idea that they come out flat often with Quinn and haven’t since he’s been out but I don’t find people’s subjective takes on that to be very convincing.

Flat starts were a this year thing, not a general thing with Quinn overall though. It's something that needed to be addressed, but it's not a situation where it proves Quinn was a bad coach.

I keep it simple and look at goals for by period. A first 5-10 minutes doesn't really tell the story. Your team might have come out fine, but the other team was on fire. Or circumstance might dictate a failure to find an early rhythm. But to me, a team that isn't flat will score at least one in the first.

The Rangers are 9th in the league in 1st period goals so far this year out of 15 unique totals (lots of teams are tied). Not bad but not great. Nobody has played more than 3 more games than the Rangers, nobody more than 3 less, so it's a pretty good idea of where we stand at this point. Worth mentioning that the season is 70 days old. In the first 35 days, the Rangers had the 11th most GF in period one out of 14 different totals. In the second 35 days, they have the 4th most out of 11. To me, that shows they were having a problem, but they've improved on it.

Last year they were 2nd. Quinn can get his teams to play well in the 1st period no problem.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

There’s rightfully been a lot of discussion about systems this year after replacing Lindy Ruff with his antithesis Jacques Martin.

This [crazy] dude @ShutdownLine watches a lot of NHL games and tracks Zone Entries, Shots/Scoring Chances, Passes/Shot Assists, Zone Exits, among other things, and has been doing it for at least four years at this point(?) While inherently imperfect, it’s pretty interesting, and fortunately he decided to do it for the 2020-21 season too.

2021 NHL Season Workbook

Rush vs. Forecheck
Percentage of team's total shots that come off the rush vs. the forecheck.
Shots off faceoff wins, & direct turnovers are not counted in these totals.

View attachment 412005

The Flyers are forecheck team? What?

 

[aufheben]

The Flyers are forecheck team? What?

It doesn’t say they’re necessarily good at it.

 

[NYR]

You've been working from home for a year so you don't need new black socks from Costco.

See.. Working from home that long is what's making him a little loopy.

If it were just a few players that were to turn it around during a coaching change then I might understand but..

The whole team joined the party since Knoblauch has taken over.

Point being.. Nobody is listening to DQ.

Entire teams don't just flip a switch..

 

[Bluto]

There’s rightfully been a lot of discussion about systems this year after replacing Lindy Ruff with his antithesis Jacques Martin.

This [crazy] dude @ShutdownLine watches a lot of NHL games and tracks Zone Entries, Shots/Scoring Chances, Passes/Shot Assists, Zone Exits, among other things, and has been doing it for at least four years at this point(?) While inherently imperfect, it’s pretty interesting, and fortunately he decided to do it for the 2020-21 season too.

2021 NHL Season Workbook

Rush vs. Forecheck
Percentage of team's total shots that come off the rush vs. the forecheck.
Shots off faceoff wins, & direct turnovers are not counted in these totals.

View attachment 412005

Where does our position fare with our regular logo?

 

[NYR]

Where does our position fare with our regular logo?

 

[Inferno]

It's a bit of both. Yes, Zibanejad finally being his old self definitely helps but having this interim coaching staff not making a bunch of in-game adjustments seems to give this team more confidence.

Coaching staff learning from this is a much better "solution" than to fire Quinn and hope a new coach handles things differently. I've been one of Quinn's harshest critics but firing him midseason isn't a solution IMO. Let him learn from this, let him adjust the same way we expect players to adjust.

Not making in game adjustments? They've won all but 1 game correct? Most coaches use winning or losing as the barometer on whether to change something..in the game against the...bruins was it?...didn't knoblauch immediately change the lines?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

They also blew a 2-goal-lead 5:00 into the 3rd period against Buffalo lol, and despite winning did not really outplay Washington that game at all.

They controlled almost this entire game though. They lost it a bit for like 5 minutes at the start of the 2nd and 3rd and Buffalo basically cashed in on every good scoring chance they had (save for that one Skinner shot in the 2nd.)

A far cry from their win against Buffalo a few weeks ago where they literally needed Shesty to steal it for them, lol.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

See.. Working from home that long is what's making him a little loopy.

If it were just a few players that were to turn it around during a coaching change then I might understand but..

The whole team joined the party since Knoblauch has taken over.

Point being.. Nobody is listening to DQ.

Entire teams don't just flip a switch..

I'd rather be loopy than completely hyperbolic.

 

[True Blue]

I'd rather be loopy than completely hyperbolic.

That is putting it very generously. Calling him hyperbolic may actually be a compliment.