Player Discussion David Quinn: Part V

[NYR]

But admittedly, that's part of my objection. Prior to Shesterkin getting hurt, they won 6 of 8. He was getting the results when he had the roster and Zibanejad was clearly getting more comfortable and healthier.

We were actually discussing it on here in the GDTs, it was something people observed.

I feel like this whole conversation is based on two Flyers meltdowns in which Zibanejad did something only Wayne Gretzky has done in the last 30+ years. Otherwise, everything basically remains the same as it was two weeks ago.

And for the sake of the conversation, I'll even meet you half-way. What's going in Hartford then? Was Knob saving all his success for the NHL level? Is he just the Mika-whisperer who has the ability to get Zibanejad back to reaching the heights he reached with Quinn?

I'm not even head over heels for Quinn! I just think that this season's biggest focal point is once again Mika Zibanejad. He's that important to this squad. And I think we're seeing him finally at 100 percent. But even before the Flyers games, he had something like 6 points in the previous 8. So it wasn't like he went from zero to 12 points either.

Edge.. We're not talking about just getting better when it comes to Zib.
We're talking an explosion.
We're also talking about how the entire team came together all at the very moment that Knob took over.

They played very well in front of any goalie that was in net.
Like.. Enough to win.

You get the difference?

Everything always seems to be a struggle under DQ where Knob just roles with the punches.

Knob adjusts in game as opposed to DQ where he just rides it out to the end.
Knob plays lines accordingly where DQ does the same shit and keeps making the same simple mistakes over and over again because he thinks he's the smartest man in the room while vet coaches are laughing in his face.

It's all pond hockey bullshit with no structure but at least at this point in time, Knob is making it work in ways DQ just can't..

 

[Edge]

Edge.. We're not talking about just getting better when it comes to Zib.
We're talking an explosion.
We're also talking about how the entire team came together all at the very moment that Knob took over.

They played very well in front of any goalie that was in net.
Like.. Enough to win.

You get the difference?

Everything always seems to be a struggle under DQ where Knob just roles with the punches.

Knob adjusts in game as opposed to DQ where he just rides it out to the end.
Knob plays lines accordingly where DQ does the same shit and keeps making the same simple mistakes over and over again because he thinks he's the smartest man in the room while vet coaches are laughing in his face.

It's all pond hockey bullshit with no structure but at least at this point in time, Knob is making it work in ways DQ just can't..

The difference IS Zibanejad.

He was the difference last year as well.

What concerns me with this line of thinking is that we have two games in which the Flyers goalies haven’t been able to stop more than 65 percent of the shots they face, and Zibanejad is scoring on 30 percent of the shots he takes.

When that doesn’t persist, and it won’t, there’s going to be this perception from some people that something is dramatically different. And the reality is that there isn’t.

Because you can’t coach to one guy scoring 70 percent of the points or the other team giving up goals on 35 percent of the shots they face.

That’s not a strategy shift, nor is it even an execution shift.

It’s not just as simple as “well keeping doing that, it’s working.”

That’s the whole correlation and causation aspect.

 

[aufheben]

I told you guys over and over again for weeks about not getting bounces and now you’re actually arguing that Knoblauch just sprinkled some pixie dust and it’s a miracle.

 

[Ola]

Was it 3 March DQ said he wanted the team to get back to playing that extreme N-S style that this team is so ill suited for?

And how about this, we clearly had a coach that wants the team to play one way, and the team plays another.

That are facts. I see a lot of discussions about totally ridiculous aspects. Zibanejad is on the ice 1/3 of the time, he isn’t the team. Oh he scored a lot 2 games, he will never dominate against the top units. Does it matter if if scores 4 pts instead? We still win. Philly didn’t need a goalie against us last season, AV coached 8s around Quinn. Or is anyone saying Hart was the difference those games? @kovazub94 I don’t get what you mean.

I like Zibanejad so don’t get me wrong, but we are wandering extremely far into nonsense land here. You got to have extremely selective memory to not remembering this team playing more or less like crap the entire season up until now. Now all of a sudden that was all about Zibanejad? You knew that was coming. Management can do no wrong. In the real world, many things haven’t been that great.

 

[Edge]

Was it 3 March DQ said he wanted the team to get back to playing that extreme N-S style that this team is so ill suited for?

And how about this, we clearly had a coach that wants the team to play one way, and the team plays another.

That are facts. I see a lot of discussions about totally ridiculous aspects. Zibanejad is on the ice 1/3 of the time, he isn’t the team. Oh he scored a lot 2 games, he will never dominate against the top units. Does it matter if if scores 4 pts instead? We still win. Philly didn’t need a goalie against us last season, AV coached 8s around Quinn. Or is anyone saying Hart was the difference those games? @kovazub94 I don’t get what you mean.

I like Zibanejad so don’t get me wrong, but we are wandering extremely far into nonsense land here. You got to have extremely selective memory to not remembering this team playing more or less like crap the entire season up until now. Now all of a sudden that was all about Zibanejad? You knew that was coming. Management can do no wrong. In the real world, many things haven’t been that great.

It’s not a matter of management can do wrong, it’s the over the top shit that had turned people who don’t even care for Quinn into looking like they are his biggest fans.

I’d say more than anything we are damn fortunate we’re playing the Flyers as often as we did while the tire fire was burning. I mean when you have two goalies who can’t stop 35 percent of shots and one guy on our team who’s done something no one has done since Wayne Gretzky, while producing 70 percent of our offense.

I mean it’s like this big giant exclamation point staring us in the face.

 

[Edge]

I told you guys over and over again for weeks about not getting bounces and now you’re actually arguing that Knoblauch just sprinkled some pixie dust and it’s a miracle.

Not only that, he’s somehow figured out how to do it in the NHL, but he can’t figure out how to do it in the AHL.

 

[Ola]

The difference IS Zibanejad.

He was the difference last year as well.

What concerns me with this line of thinking is that we have two games in which the Flyers goalies haven’t been able to stop more than 65 percent of the shots they face, and Zibanejad is scoring on 30 percent of the shots he takes.

When that doesn’t persist, and it won’t, there’s going to be this perception from some people that something is dramatically different. And the reality is that there isn’t.

Because you can’t coach to one guy scoring 70 percent of the points or the other team giving up goals on 35 percent of the shots they face.

That’s not a strategy shift, nor is it even an execution shift.

It’s not just as simple as “well keeping doing that, it’s working.”

That’s the whole correlation and causation aspect.

Edge, seriously, just stop. You can’t believe this yourself.

Nobody is saying Knoblauch is the reason Ziba scored 12 pts and DQ is the difference between 18-3 and 12 pfs by Ziba and losing say 15-6 like over three games like we did last season.

Facts are that DQ tried to implement a lot of changes early this year — right, is that even up for debate!??? — and they haven’t worked out at all.

Knoblauch isn’t some savior and he has had tremendously little chance to impact this team. But another fact — or is this up for debate too? — is that DQ has been super negative and blamed everything on the players from Day 1. Maybe the fact that someone comes in who doesn’t have that history has something to do with the players finally enjoying themselves again?

 

[Edge]

Edge, seriously, just stop. You can’t believe this yourself.

Nobody is saying Knoblauch is the reason Ziba scored 12 pts and DQ is the difference between 18-3 and 12 pfs by Ziba and losing say 15-6 like over three games like we did last season.

Facts are that DQ tried to implement a lot of changes early this year — right, is that even up for debate!??? — and they haven’t worked out at all.

Knoblauch isn’t some savior and he has had tremendously little chance to impact this team. But another fact — or is this up for debate too? — is that DQ has been super negative and blamed everything on the players from Day 1. Maybe the fact that someone comes in who doesn’t have that history has something to do with the players finally enjoying themselves again?

Sure, it’s because they’re feeling good.

So what happens when they don’t play the Flyers and go back to the Pens again?

 

[Ola]

I also love how now it seems like people criticizing DQ all of a sudden emerged out of nowhere when KK took over.

People have had big issues with how DQ has handled his job for a long time. Then by an act of I don’t know what, another coach temporary comes in and the team does great over night, and against a team that pwned us completely when DQ coached us.

Wow what a big deal it is if the same people who have had issues with DQs coaching comments on this lol.

 

[Ola]

Sure, it’s because they’re feeling good.

So what happens when they don’t play the Flyers and go back to the Pens again?

I don’t know Edge, you — always — defend DQ, so I recon you think that we are a well coached team so we should do really well against everyone, right?

In the real world we are on the verge of missing the POs, so I wouldn’t have too big hopes of us destroying Pittsburgh. And Pittsburgh aren’t even that good of a team, but they have had a lot of fortunate playing US coached by Quinn who made changes early this season that paid off very poorly.

Funny, I’ve never seen you comment on those changes.

 

[aufheben]

Not only that, he’s somehow figured out how to do it in the NHL, but he can’t figure out how to do it in the AHL.

I feel like I’ve been reading “2 + 2 = 5” since February.

 

[aufheben]

I don’t know Edge, you — always — defend DQ, so I recon you think that we are a well coached team so we should do really well against everyone, right?

In the real world we are on the verge of missing the POs, so I wouldn’t have too big hopes of us destroying Pittsburgh. And Pittsburgh aren’t even that good of a team, but they have had a lot of fortunate playing US coached by Quinn who made changes early this season that paid off very poorly.

Funny, I’ve never seen you comment on those changes.

This is so wildly removed from reality, I just...lol

Yeah man send me a postcard from the “real world”.

 

[Edge]

I don’t know Edge, you — always — defend DQ, so I recon you think that we are a well coached team so we should do really well against everyone, right?

In the real world we are on the verge of missing the POs, so I wouldn’t have too big hopes of us destroying Pittsburgh. And Pittsburgh aren’t even that good of a team, but they have had a lot of fortunate playing US coached by Quinn who made changes early this season that paid off very poorly.

Funny, I’ve never seen you comment on those changes.

I can list a lot of things I don’t like. The use of Lemieux. The too many men penalties. The shuffling lines. The deployment of quite a few guys. The longer leash given to certain players. The line balancing. The over-insistence on certain elements, etc. etc.

I think what you see is two primary schools of thought with DQ.

There’s the people who don’t like him or are lukewarm on him, and there’s the people who really don’t like him and who tend to be laser focused on him as the root of a greater number of problems.

Inevitably the former group ends up looking like they like DQ more than they do, mainly because they don’t particularly prescribe to all of the theories the latter group believes.

It’s like a lot of issues on HF Boards. Sometimes you don’t love someone as much as others, so that means you hate them. Other times you don’t hate someone as much as others do, so you end up becoming their fan by default.

 

[Ola]

This is so wildly removed from reality, I just...lol

Yeah man send me a postcard from the “real world”.

Damn Aufben that is a disappointing post coming from you who often is a pretty stand up guy.

Why, because I don’t agree with you? Is that so horrible that you must resort to personal attacks?

Or what is wrong with my post? Is it that Edge isn’t always defending DQ? Maybe I missed something, let me know if I have. I’ve never seen him question DQ on everything and there are like 20 posts above when he defends him.

Isn’t that we haven’t done great this year? By what standards have we done great?

 

[aufheben]

Not only that, he’s somehow figured out how to do it in the NHL, but he can’t figure out how to do it in the AHL.

What are you talking about? Hartford is at the top of the AHL standings.

 

[Ola]

@aufheben Just for the record, I agree with you on KK. Claiming that we score 18 goals and Ziba 12 pts is of course a pure random event. Or whatever.

But I am sorry, I just don’t agree — at all — with you guys on Quinn. I think he has been a disaster this year. If you disagree, fine, but stop with the personal attacks. If you disagree on a specific part of a post, refer to that and tell me why I am wrong.

 

[Ola]

BTW, I always attack Edge, because he can handle it. I am amazed how good of a communicator he is, some times I just want to test him and see how he responds.

 

[Edge]

BTW, I always attack Edge, because he can handle it. I am amazed how good of a communicator he is, some times I just want to test him and see how he responds.

And here’s the God honest truth with DQ: on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being hate and 10 being love, I’m probably around a 5 or 6.

I’ve long held the belief that Quinn is not going to be the guy who is here when this team starts climbing. I still feel that way (which once upon a time pissed people off who felt I wasn’t starting neutral enough with Quinn).

So that pretty much leaves me as roadkill in the dreaded median of this topic.

 

[aufheben]

Haha remember when people were jealous that Darryl Sutter made the Flames bag-skate?

Oh, or Lindy Ruff unleashing the Devils for 72 hours?

 

[Tawnos]

And here’s the God honest truth with DQ: on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being hate and 10 being love, I’m probably around a 5 or 6.

I’ve long held the belief that Quinn is not going to be the guy who is here when this team starts climbing. I still feel that way (which once upon a time pissed people off who felt I wasn’t starting neutral enough with Quinn).

So that pretty much leaves me as roadkill in the dreaded median of this topic.

This is not the first time you've said this on this board, and I believe I was a poster pushing back against you on that topic solely on the grounds that I don't think we can know what kind of coach he'll be when the all the pieces are there for this team to be a contender. I still don't think we can know until it happens, but this is covered ground. My position is more rhetorical than actual, agnostic rather than theist. We will see. Quinn may not even get the chance.

I'm really curious to know if Quinn has gained another perspective watching these games on TV, rather than from behind the bench.

 

[kovazub94]

And here’s the God honest truth with DQ: on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being hate and 10 being love, I’m probably around a 5 or 6.

I’ve long held the belief that Quinn is not going to be the guy who is here when this team starts climbing. I still feel that way (which once upon a time pissed people off who felt I wasn’t starting neutral enough with Quinn).

So that pretty much leaves me as roadkill in the dreaded median of this topic.

And I disagree with this too. I mean yeah, simply from a statistical or historical perspective it’s likely that Quinn won’t be the coach when the team is a true contender, but I don’t believe for a second that when Gorton hired him he set the clock on dismissing Quinn at a certain point in time down the road BEFORE the team is a true contender. I think the hiring was done in “good faith” hoping that Quinn is the coach that would lead this team to a SC instead of just babysitting the kids until they’re ready for prime time and have someone else leading them there.

Does Quinn has players trust - I believe so based on what I’ve seen. Does he have what it takes to win a SC? I don’t know but I think he will get his chance.

 

[duhmetreE]

I see a lot of the same from just about everyone other than Zibanejad. I see a team that won 6 of 8, before losing its starting goalie. I see a lot of the same guys playing the same before DQ went out, with the added bonus of having Zibanejad doing something Gretzky-esque.

You see a completely different system. I don't. I see the same system, with Zibanejad healthy. Which is exactly what we discussed on here prior.

When you look at this roster, do you honestly think that Knob has Zibanejad shooting at a 30 percent clip? Or utilizing a strategy that has Philly goalies incapable of stopping more than 65 percent of the shots they face?

If so, why is Hartford's record not mirroring what Knob has done in the NHL?

@Edge

I don't know why Knoblauch keeps being brought up. This doesn't have anything to do with Knoblauch. I'm talking about how the team, somehow, came together and why. This team has not been the same since the Covid play-in. Something changed. That something reverted back on March 17 IMO.

I don't have an answer and the only logical thing I can come up with is, Quinn over complicated things; creating too much 'thinking' on the ice. Mika himself said, 'they simplified it and came together' (paraphrasing). The end-result, they actually look like the team we loved last season. From my perspective, the team is 'flowing'. Quinn calls it swagger. Call it whatever you want as long as it continues.

 

[haveandare]

I can list a lot of things I don’t like. The use of Lemieux. The too many men penalties. The shuffling lines. The deployment of quite a few guys. The longer leash given to certain players. The line balancing. The over-insistence on certain elements, etc. etc.

I think what you see is two primary schools of thought with DQ.

There’s the people who don’t like him or are lukewarm on him, and there’s the people who really don’t like him and who tend to be laser focused on him as the root of a greater number of problems.

Inevitably the former group ends up looking like they like DQ more than they do, mainly because they don’t particularly prescribe to all of the theories the latter group believes.

It’s like a lot of issues on HF Boards. Sometimes you don’t love someone as much as others, so that means you hate them. Other times you don’t hate someone as much as others do, so you end up becoming their fan by default.

There’s also an issue where people are so hyper focused on everything being Quinn’s fault that they’ll make arguments that don’t hold up, and if you challenge those arguments you’re labeled as loving Quinn. A lot of the time it appears I’m defending him I’m really just questioning or taking issue with a silly argument

 

[True Blue]

This is so wildly removed from reality, I just...lol

Yeah man send me a postcard from the “real world”.

Andre and the Raindancers say hi from the real world.

 

[True Blue]

There’s also an issue where people are so hyper focused on everything being Quinn’s fault that they’ll make arguments that don’t hold up, and if you challenge those arguments you’re labeled as loving Quinn. A lot of the time it appears I’m defending him I’m really just questioning or taking issue with a silly argument

The Quinn hate tends to take away from the real root discussion. We are left with actually needing to explain Mika literally peeling himself off the milk carton because praise is going to a coach that can’t get a .500 AHL record as opposed to the team playing the way that they did for the second half of the game.