Player Discussion David Quinn: Part IV

[NYR]

And the rotating goalie games continue just after he makes a statement to the media that the
"rotating goalies will no longer continue" and will be based on performance.
Last I checked.. In a high scoring league, giving up 2 goals isn't so terrible...

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Honestly, what points to not having a system? I keep hearing this as the main issue with Quinn but it feels like such a general, catch-all complaint. Can you talk about specifically what you mean by this?

Can you tell me what they're trying to accomplish as a group?

They aren't smothering teams with speed and pressure, they aren't clogging up the walls/NZ, they aren't even doing AV's dumb ass "let the other team do what ever they want and pray that they make a mistake and then take advantage of it."

Its like they're trying to do parts of all three but half assing all of them.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Can you tell me what they're trying to accomplish as a group?

They aren't smothering teams with speed and pressure, they aren't clogging up the walls/NZ, they aren't even doing AV's dumb ass "let the other team do what ever they want and pray that they make a mistake and then take advantage of it."

Its like they're trying to do parts of all three but half assing all of them.

What a game like last night makes painfully obvious, IMO, is that when things don't work, we do not have a 2nd gear, or a 2nd strategy under this coaching staff. We just try over and over again hoping things to change.

 

[haveandare]

If you watch a team like Tampa or Boston or Vegas, there is a reason that they can lose big pieces and slide in new, unknown ones like it's no big deal. The Penguins are also a prime example in their b2b cup years.

Unlike the Rangers, who rely on certain players 'showing up' and taking over the game in order to win, those teams have a style that is their own and no matter who their opponent is, the game will be a combat of wills in which each team will be trying to establish the style of play for both. Obviously the team's mentioned have the elite talent to win that tug of war more often than not, and that in the end is the value of that talent.

These teams have a fixed notion of where to keep the puck in the defensive zone, how to move the puck up the ice or laterally, and every player will abide be those principles and will use their specific strengths as individuals to enforce those general movements over the course of the game.

It's where terms like identity and momentum -- tilting the ice -- derive from.

Boston, and especially Tampa, have/had crazy stacked rosters. It’s easy to slide people in when you have insane depth up and down the lineup. TB loses a 1C and still has Point and Cirelli for the top 2 lines. That’s not a system or coaching solution.

The pens had arguably the best player in the world and another top 5 player in the world, both at the most valuable position on the ice. Again, it’s not a systems thing. It’s having an elite center to slide some random winger next to. If we had Sullivan coaching here, we couldn’t slide some rando winger up to player with Howden and have them suddenly break out like they might with Crosby or Malkin.

Vegas is a different situation. They had one coach for, what 2.5 seasons and another now. Their system hasn’t changed between full blown coaching changes? Maybe they have a strong roster.

imo all of those teams rely on their best players winning games and the only big difference between how any of them “play their game” compares to the rangers is that people on this forum generally don’t watch those teams with the same critical eye of an invested fan that they watch the rangers with.

I really don’t think any coach at this level, regardless of where they came from, is honest to god not playing a detailed system that they’re trying to inflict on other teams every game.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Boston, and especially Tampa, have/had crazy stacked rosters. It’s easy to slide people in when you have insane depth up and down the lineup. TB loses a 1C and still has Point and Cirelli for the top 2 lines. That’s not a system or coaching solution.

The pens had arguably the best player in the world and another top 5 player in the world, both at the most valuable position on the ice. Again, it’s not a systems thing. It’s having an elite center to slide some random winger next to. If we had Sullivan coaching here, we couldn’t slide some rando winger up to player with Howden and have them suddenly break out like they might with Crosby or Malkin.

Vegas is a different situation. They had one coach for, what 2.5 seasons and another now. Their system hasn’t changed between full blown coaching changes? Maybe they have a strong roster.

imo all of those teams rely on their best players winning games and the only big difference between how any of them “play their game” compares to the rangers is that people on this forum generally don’t watch those teams with the same critical eye of an invested fan that they watch the rangers with.

I really don’t think any coach at this level, regardless of where they came from, is honest to god not playing a detailed system that they’re trying to inflict on other teams every game.

A detailed watcher of Pittsburgh would know how many man games lost to injury their stars have had. I mean, Letang missed their whole second cup run, and Justin Schultz was his replacement.

I mentioned elite talent. In the end it's how you win. But Boston has had star players leave and miss time without missing a beat. Rask is opting out of the playoffs? no problem, put Halak in. Stamkos will miss the whole playoffs? no problem, palat will play there now.

Of course, elite talent tips the scales in your favor, but who did Boston replace Torey Krug with that nothing has suffered? I think it's a critical eye that sees that the Rangers have elite talent. We have as good an offensive player as there is in the world and a defensemen and goalie who on any given night could be the best player on the ice. What we lack is something else...

 

[haveandare]

Can you tell me what they're trying to accomplish as a group?

They aren't smothering teams with speed and pressure, they aren't clogging up the walls/NZ, they aren't even doing AV's dumb ass "let the other team do what ever they want and pray that they make a mistake and then take advantage of it."

Its like they're trying to do parts of all three but half assing all of them.

Do you think they’re going into games with no clear plan or strategy and they just happen to succeed against good teams coached by well established coaches?

They have no clue what they’re trying to do as a group and they just beat the Caps coached by as vet a coach as anyone by blind luck? They happened to absolutely stomp the isles coached by trotz in the second game of the season despite having no gameplan just because?

If anything they have too rigid a system. They try to gain the zone as quickly as possible with or without numbers and then rely on passing laterally to try to open up seams and take advantage of goalies trying to make difficult cross ice saves. When that doesn’t work they don’t really have a plan b. That’s a real problem, but not having a system imo is a catch all blank canvas complaint.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

What a game like last night makes painfully obvious, IMO, is that when things don't work, we do not have a 2nd gear, or a 2nd strategy under this coaching staff. We just try over and over again hoping things to change.

I don't think we even have a primary strategy, or if we do I don't understand what it is.

I think the most telling thing is look how WELL we're coached at one end of the ice compared to the other. We're not a wall defensively but they've made such big strides from where they were last year and this is with a very young an inexperienced group.

Compare that to how they look at the other end of the ice... And if we're being real, the only big difference between this team's offense NOW and the one that showed up for the last 30-ish games of last season is Zibanejad and the PP (again, Zibanejad.) It's not all Zibanejad, but if one guy throws off your offense this drastically? We've got problems.

If your coach keeps on running this guy out there in his usual roles despite clearly struggling to the point where hes maybe our worst player? We've got bigger problems.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I don't think we even have a primary strategy, or if we do I don't understand what it is.

I think the most telling thing is look how WELL we're coached at one end of the ice compared to the other. We're not a wall defensively but they've made such big strides from where they were last year and this is with a very young an inexperienced group.

Compare that to how they look at the other end of the ice... And if we're being real, the only big difference between this team's offense NOW and the one that showed up for the last 30-ish games of last season is Zibanejad and the PP (again, Zibanejad.) It's not all Zibanejad, but if one guy throws off your offense this drastically? We've got problems.

If your coach keeps on running this guy out there in his usual roles despite clearly struggling to the point where hes maybe our worst player? We've got bigger problems.

How is it that under Quinn we ALWAYS start slow after a break? Whether it's the All Star break, a bye week, off season... We always start off slow, look a step or 2 behind. When was the last time we had an easy win? A game where we just had to ride it out with a 2-goal lead and we could watch the final period without palpitations?

 

[NYR3]

A detailed watcher of Pittsburgh would know how many man games lost to injury their stars have had. I mean, Letang missed their whole second cup run, and Justin Schultz was his replacement.

I mentioned elite talent. In the end it's how you win. But Boston has had star players leave and miss time without missing a beat. Rask is opting out of the playoffs? no problem, put Halak in. Stamkos will miss the whole playoffs? no problem, palat will play there now.

Of course, elite talent tips the scales in your favor, but who did Boston replace Torey Krug with that nothing has suffered? I think it's a critical eye that sees that the Rangers have elite talent. We have as good an offensive player as there is in the world and a defensemen and goalie who on any given night could be the best player on the ice. What we lack is something else...

We lack an identity and a style. When Torts was coach, we were in your face, grind the shit out of you and block every shot you take and we had the players to do it. With AV, we were a fast transition team that liked to win with speed and fast offense and we had guys who played that way.

What is this? We have lots of talent but what do we want to be? With Panarin, Mika, Lafreniere, Kakko, Fox, Chytil, etc.. this is probably the most talented team we have had in who knows how long but what are our strengths? What are our weaknesses? What kind of hockey do we want to come out playing when the puck drops? Right now it seems like we just threw a bunch of names together and everyone is playing a different game out there. Stocking up on the most talented players is fine but we need the other parts too or else we won't win shit

 

[NYR]

Boston, and especially Tampa, have/had crazy stacked rosters. It’s easy to slide people in when you have insane depth up and down the lineup. TB loses a 1C and still has Point and Cirelli for the top 2 lines. That’s not a system or coaching solution.

The pens had arguably the best player in the world and another top 5 player in the world, both at the most valuable position on the ice. Again, it’s not a systems thing. It’s having an elite center to slide some random winger next to. If we had Sullivan coaching here, we couldn’t slide some rando winger up to player with Howden and have them suddenly break out like they might with Crosby or Malkin.

Vegas is a different situation. They had one coach for, what 2.5 seasons and another now. Their system hasn’t changed between full blown coaching changes? Maybe they have a strong roster.

imo all of those teams rely on their best players winning games and the only big difference between how any of them “play their game” compares to the rangers is that people on this forum generally don’t watch those teams with the same critical eye of an invested fan that they watch the rangers with.

I really don’t think any coach at this level, regardless of where they came from, is honest to god not playing a detailed system that they’re trying to inflict on other teams every game.

Haveandare.. You have to play in tight, 5 man groups and it doesn't matter what side of the ice you're on.
Track meet (pond hockey) only works in spurts.

Think about it like this.. You can't maintain a playoff type game throughout a season.
It's just not humanly possible.
That's the exact reason why they're excellent one night and trash the next.

It's a fantasy recipe for disaster..

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Do you think they’re going into games with no clear plan or strategy and they just happen to succeed against good teams coached by well established coaches?

Yes. Quite honestly this is exactly what it seems like to me.

They have no clue what they’re trying to do as a group and they just beat the Caps coached by as vet a coach as anyone by blind luck? They happened to absolutely stomp the isles coached by trotz in the second game of the season despite having no gameplan just because?

They played well against Washington, but I do think its worth mentioning that this came against a team that is adjusting to an entirely new system and it's clear that they haven't gotten completely comfortable with it. I know they got off to a good start, but they've lost 3 straight (or is it 4 now?) and just gave up 7 goals to a Philly team who I'm pretty sure didn't even register 20 SOG.

Our goalie was also awesome in this game.

We clown pounded the Isles because their goalie and their team sucked as much in that game as we did the first game of the season.

If anything they have too rigid a system. They try to gain the zone as quickly as possible with or without numbers and then rely on passing laterally to try to open up seams and take advantage of goalies trying to make difficult cross ice saves. When that doesn’t work they don’t really have a plan b. That’s a real problem, but not having a system imo is a catch all blank canvas complaint.

This isn't a system though, this is hockey.

Their issues stem from how they execute here. If they're dumping and chasing, they're chipping and coasting too often and if they're entering the zone with possession and with out numbers, they aren't waiting for other people to catch up (Lemieux of all people, is one of the few people on this team who actually understands that this is a thing.) They aren't really a rush oriented offense either, so we can't pin them with that moniker. I understand why you think it's rigid, but it really seems like they don't have a plan more so than they're sticking to doing things a certain way.

The over reliance on trying to exploit the royal road against the Isles last night I don't even put on Quinn entirely, at a certain point your players need to knock that shit off and I don't think it's a nightly thing for them either. Being allergic to the paint however, is an issue and I don't think that this roster should be as adverse to playing in traffic as they are. Who is responsible for the disconnect here?

So the question becomes, is Quinn not coaching his players to do these things, or is he preaching them but the team isn't listening? Neither answer is a good one.

 

[will1066]

Hey, I'll take last night's style or whatever you want to call it over loose pond hockey.

 

[will1066]

I've accepted that this is a place where no one can do anything right. Let's say we do lack a style. If Quinn decides the next day that the team's style going forward is going to be a trapping team, 1-2-2, people will complain. This place made fun of Torts' six-goalie system. It was a platform for jokes. Now it's looked at with admiration.

 

[NYR]

I've accepted that this is a place where no one can do anything right. Let's say we do lack a style. If Quinn decides the next day that the team's style going forward is going to be a trapping team, 1-2-2, people will complain. This place made fun of Torts' six-goalie system. It was a platform for jokes. Now it's looked at with admiration.

It doesn't necessarily have to be 1-2-2 but you do need some form of trap in order to counter other teams, especially when you don't have depth down the middle..

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

How is it that under Quinn we ALWAYS start slow after a break? Whether it's the All Star break, a bye week, off season... We always start off slow, look a step or 2 behind. When was the last time we had an easy win? A game where we just had to ride it out with a 2-goal lead and we could watch the final period without palpitations?

They did the same thing under Torts and the same thing under AV.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Hey, I'll take last night's style or whatever you want to call it over loose pond hockey.

He coached a very good game last night. The team was prepared and committed. If Panarin scores on that breakaway, this is a much different place today.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

They did the same thing under Torts and the same thing under AV.

So we should just let it slide? It's still an issue. Just like face offs have been an issue since 2009

 

[NYR]

He coached a very good game last night. The team was prepared and committed. If Panarin scores on that breakaway, this is a much different place today.

Consistency is key.
He don't even have his goalie set yet..

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

So we should just let it slide? It's still an issue. Just like face offs have been an issue since 2009

Nope, but this has been going on for three coaches now. A not a problem unique to Quinn as you've implied.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Consistency is key.
He don't even have his goalie set yet..

They took 7 out of the previous 8 points, I'd say that's pretty consistent considering they're only playing with 1.5 of their top three centers. Not perfect, but better from where they started. I don't like everything the coach does but some of these posts are silly.

And he has his goalie, but the other guy needs a start too and he hasn't played in a while. This shit doesn't happen overnight. Patience man.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Nope, but this has been going on for three coaches now. A not a problem unique to Quinn as you've implied.

I didn't imply it was a problem unique to Quinn. I said it has happened under Quinn. Doesn't mean it didn't happen before. But we are talking about Quinn here.

 

[NYR]

They took 7 out of the previous 8 points, I'd say that's pretty consistent considering they're only playing with 1.5 of their top three centers. Not perfect, but better from where they started. I don't like everything the coach does but some of these posts are silly.

I just feel this roster as currently constructed are capable of so much more with so much less effort

I think of the age old saying.. Work smarter, not harder..Which doesn't seem to apply under Quinn.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I just feel this roster as currently constructed are capable of so much more with so much less effort

I think of the age old saying.. Work smarter, not harder..Which doesn't seem to apply under Quinn.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic but when Zib snaps out of whatever funk he's in and Chytil is back in the lineup, you'll see a much different, more dynamic team. I don't think the guy is perfect and if they move on from him, so be it. But the hyperbole in this place is nuts. People need some context. He's trying to get his big guys going, he's trying to find ice time, while nurturing Laf and to a lesser extent Kakko, they're trying to manage Miller's ice, sort out the goalie situation, triage a competent 3rd D pairing, they had no training camp and no preseason. Every coach is dealing with weird issues. This team has been in every single game they've played this season, except maybe the Devils.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Maybe I'm being too optimistic but when Zib snaps out of whatever funk he's in and Chytil is back in the lineup, you'll see a much different, more dynamic team. I don't think the guy is perfect and if they move on from him, so be it. But the hyperbole in this place is nuts. People need some context. He's trying to get his big guys going, he's trying to find ice time, while nurturing Laf and to a lesser extent Kakko, they're trying to manage Miller's ice, sort out the goalie situation, triage a competent 3rd D pairing, they had no training camp and no preseason. Every coach is dealing with weird issues. This team has been in every single game they've played this season, except maybe the Devils.

You mean Isles pt 1. right?

But yeah a normally functioning Zibaenjad would be a big boost. Chytil getting healthy and returning to what he was doing before the injury would be not as big of a boost, but a pretty big one in its own right.

Im not so confident that we'll see the real Zibanejad this year though. Covid is an asshole.

 

[NYR]

Maybe I'm being too optimistic but when Zib snaps out of whatever funk he's in and Chytil is back in the lineup, you'll see a much different, more dynamic team. I don't think the guy is perfect and if they move on from him, so be it. But the hyperbole in this place is nuts. People need some context. He's trying to get his big guys going, he's trying to find ice time, while nurturing Laf and to a lesser extent Kakko, they're trying to manage Miller's ice, sort out the goalie situation, triage a competent 3rd D pairing, they had no training camp and no preseason. Every coach is dealing with weird issues. This team has been in every single game they've played this season, except maybe the Devils.

I don't see it as just being hyperbole.
There are just way too many very questionable decisions he's made.
Yes..Chytil's return is super important.
I actually think he's a legit #2C.
But that don't change the starting behind the 8-ball mentality of this coaching staff IMO.
That said..Box that shit out when need be in order to get a win.
There's never a counter play with this guy until well after the fact.
All the best teams know when to do it..