Player Discussion David Quinn: Part IV

[Harbour Dog]

C'mon man..How could you possibly accept trashing yet another season??

I'm not happy about it, but Quinn isn't going anywhere. I'd rather focus on the kids.

And realistically, he isn't stopping us from being cup contenders or ruining our prospects, so the stakes are a little lower than they could be.

If we do trash the season though, then I'll pick up a pitchfork to start next year and join in. Until then, I'll watch Kakko reverse hit defensemen, Lafreniere thread passes through traffic, and Miller erase star forwards.

 

[huerter]

THIS TEAM!!!

 

[NYR]

I'm not happy about it, but Quinn isn't going anywhere. I'd rather focus on the kids.

And realistically, he isn't stopping us from being cup contenders or ruining our prospects, so the stakes are a little lower than they could be.

If we do trash the season though, then I'll pick up a pitchfork to start next year and join in. Until then, I'll watch Kakko reverse hit defensemen, Lafreniere thread passes through traffic, and Miller erase star forwards.

Ugh..It's breaking my heart!!!

 

[will1066]

I'm not happy about it, but Quinn isn't going anywhere. I'd rather focus on the kids.

And realistically, he isn't stopping us from being cup contenders or ruining our prospects, so the stakes are a little lower than they could be.

If we do trash the season though, then I'll pick up a pitchfork to start next year and join in. Until then, I'll watch Kakko reverse hit defensemen, Lafreniere thread passes through traffic, and Miller erase star forwards.

Please don't forget Filchytil

 

[Tawnos]

I too wouldn't mind giving a test run to the guy who is responsible for the only areas where this team has looked any good at all this year.

The problem with this concept is that the team is still running the same system they ran last year and the year before, with a couple of tweaks here and there. Likely those tweaks were suggested to Quinn by Martin, but it's still Quinn's system. Just like how the man-to-man rotation they ran previously was AV's and the 6-goalie system was Tortorella's.

The AC has input and is there to help the guys know what to do and how to execute, but their success is the head coach's success. Always. If Martin is responsible for improvements, that actually goes double for Quinn.

The biggest factor, though, is way the players are executing this year. Some of that is players playing improving over last year's performance (like Fox, Trouba, and Lindgren). Some of that is getting personnel better suited to what they want the players doing (Miller, for example, is better in this system than Staal). And some of that is the coaches coaxing better performances out of the players. Martin is doing better there than Ruff, but that equation doesn't exclude Quinn... it still includes it.

In other words, there was nothing wrong with the system in the first place.

 

[duhmetreE]

The problem with this concept is that the team is still running the same system they ran last year and the year before, with a couple of tweaks here and there. Likely those tweaks were suggested to Quinn by Martin, but it's still Quinn's system. Just like how the man-to-man rotation they ran previously was AV's and the 6-goalie system was Tortorella's.

The AC has input and is there to help the guys know what to do and how to execute, but their success is the head coach's success. Always. If Martin is responsible for improvements, that actually goes double for Quinn.

The biggest factor, though, is way the players are executing this year. Some of that is players playing improving over last year's performance (like Fox, Trouba, and Lindgren). Some of that is getting personnel better suited to what they want the players doing (Miller, for example, is better in this system than Staal). And some of that is the coaches coaxing better performances out of the players. Martin is doing better there than Ruff, but that equation doesn't exclude Quinn... it still includes it.

In other words, there was nothing wrong with the system in the first place.

We finally got a good coach that could implement it and coach up the team.

Now, we just need to get a Martin equivalent for the offense.... then we can praise Quinn for his great overall coaching. He just needed two great coordinators/assistant coaches to do all the work for him.

 

[True Blue]

A+ Contribution.

I too wouldn't mind giving a test run to the guy who is responsible for the only areas where this team has looked any good at all this year.

And how exactly does one administer “a test run”!

 

[True Blue]

If they love Quinn so much can they at least fire Oliver and Brown and bring in some experienced assistants who can draw up the plays, and let DQ be the mouthpiece

This is something that you see in any sport,
do you? Assistants being fired with zero input from the head coach? Just where have you seen such an act!

 

[True Blue]

Quinn admitting he had no idea what to do on defense until Martin came around

That’s how you interpret what he said?

Or maybe housing players like Staal, Girardi, Smith and some rookies and a defensively deficient DeAngelo co contributed? Some youngsters needed experience and some players needed to be removed?

Martin has certainly made a big difference. But if you look at how they played defensively last year and compare the star lt of year to finish, you will also see a huge differential.

 

[Tawnos]

We finally got a good coach that could implement it and coach up the team.

Now, we just need to get a Martin equivalent for the offense.... then we can praise Quinn for his great overall coaching. He just needed two great coordinators/assistant coaches to do all the work for him.

It’s like I didn’t write anything after what you bolded.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

And how exactly does one administer “a test run”!

You fire Quinn and let JM coach the rest of the season on an interim basis.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

And how exactly does one administer “a test run”!

I'm still trying to get over the shock that merely uninstalling Marc Staal hasn't solved all this team's problems.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

It’s like I didn’t write anything after what you bolded.

Everything after the bolded doesn't fit his narrative...

 

[True Blue]

You fire Quinn and let JM coach the rest of the season on an interim basis.

You can keep hoping but unless the wheels completely come off the bus, not only does he finish the season but he’s also here next year.

 

[True Blue]

I'm still trying to get over the shock that merely uninstalling Marc Staal hasn't solved all this team's problems.

Oh, it has. Have you not seen the way the defense has played? Clearly Stall was the sole issue.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

The problem with this concept is that the team is still running the same system they ran last year and the year before, with a couple of tweaks here and there. Likely those tweaks were suggested to Quinn by Martin, but it's still Quinn's system. Just like how the man-to-man rotation they ran previously was AV's and the 6-goalie system was Tortorella's.

The AC has input and is there to help the guys know what to do and how to execute, but their success is the head coach's success. Always. If Martin is responsible for improvements, that actually goes double for Quinn.

The biggest factor, though, is way the players are executing this year. Some of that is players playing improving over last year's performance (like Fox, Trouba, and Lindgren). Some of that is getting personnel better suited to what they want the players doing (Miller, for example, is better in this system than Staal). And some of that is the coaches coaxing better performances out of the players. Martin is doing better there than Ruff, but that equation doesn't exclude Quinn... it still includes it.

In other words, there was nothing wrong with the system in the first place.

Lol did you really just try to semantic your way into giving Quinn credit for this teams defensive/PK improvement?

Quinn himself admitted that he had no idea what to do with this team defensively (not verbatim, but he did some what throw Lindy under the bus the other day) until JM got here. If a guy comes here, and suggests changes which work, the HC doesn't get any credit for anything other than agreeing to go along with it. The defense and the PK are NOT his direct responsibilities, so no he doesn't double credit for their improvements, or even half or a quarter credit. Ditto goes for the team defense which didn't just improve because a few guys are having better seasons and they added Miller. Collectively, they're in a MUCH better position to make plays in their own end, this is stuff that they weren't doing at all last year which again, Quinn shouldn't get credit for as this isn't coming from him. If you want to call it execution, fine.

But by that logic then, he should get Quintuple blame for the offense and PP failing to execute. He actually has more of a hand in these things than he does the PK/D and structurally nothing has really changed there.

Note that I'm not placing all of the blame on him for those areas sucking, the PP was a perfect storm last year which will improve when/if Mika stops shanking/flubbing everything (it won't be the force it was last year, but it doesn't have to be.) He does get a load of the blame for forcing certain players out there even though it's become beyond clear that they're hurting the PP. Mika's got/had Covid problems which he hasn't gotten over and that's hurt us more than really anything, but theres only one guy who is responsible for throwing him out there as much as he does. His player usage this year has been abysmal, especially in game where he's leaned on his vets no matter how much they may be struggling, but lost other guys on the bench who are actually going. Good coaches identify this.

I'm still trying to get over the shock that merely uninstalling Marc Staal hasn't solved all this team's problems.

Another A+ response, you're killing it in here.

Funny how much better they are defensively with out him though. No one said he was responsible for all of the teams problems.

On a serious note, you should probably sit this one out.

 

[Tawnos]

Lol did you really just try to semantic your way into giving Quinn credit for this teams defensive/PK improvement?

Quinn himself admitted that he had no idea what to do with this team defensively (not verbatim, but he did some what throw Lindy under the bus the other day) until JM got here. If a guy comes here, and suggests changes which work, the HC doesn't get any credit for anything other than agreeing to go along with it. The defense and the PK are NOT his direct responsibilities, so no he doesn't double credit for their improvements, or even half or a quarter credit. Ditto goes for the team defense which didn't just improve because a few guys are having better seasons and they added Miller. Collectively, they're in a MUCH better position to make plays in their own end, this is stuff that they weren't doing at all last year which again, Quinn shouldn't get credit for as this isn't coming from him. If you want to call it execution, fine.

But by that logic then, he should get Quintuple blame for the offense and PP failing to execute. He actually has more of a hand in these things than he does the PK/D and structurally nothing has really changed there.

Note that I'm not placing all of the blame on him for those areas sucking, the PP was a perfect storm last year which will improve when/if Mika stops shanking/flubbing everything (it won't be the force it was last year, but it doesn't have to be.) He does get a load of the blame for forcing certain players out there even though it's become beyond clear that they're hurting the PP. Mika's got/had Covid problems which he hasn't gotten over and that's hurt us more than really anything, but theres only one guy who is responsible for throwing him out there as much as he does. His player usage this year has been abysmal, especially in game where he's leaned on his vets no matter how much they may be struggling, but lost other guys on the bench who are actually going. Good coaches identify this.



Another A+ response, you're killing it in here.

Funny how much better they are defensively with out him though. No one said he was responsible for all of the teams problems.

On a serious note, you should probably sit this one out.

If you really think that the assistant coach is the only one "directly responsible" for things and the head coach is not, maybe you should be the one to sit this one out. Every single thing that the assistant coaches are responsible for, the head coach is also responsible for. It's literally the reason why they're the head coach. If Martin is solely responsible for the defense and PK, then Oliver is solely responsible for the forwards and PP, Allaire for the goalies, and Brown for video coaching. And if that's all true, exactly what need is there for a head coach at all? The logic here is patently absurd. Assistants don't really do anything without the explicit or implicit approval of the head coach and the head coach has his hands in literally every aspect. Stop overemphasizing the role an assistant plays and underemphasizing the role the head coach plays.

Quinn DOES get blame the coach deserves for the offense and the PP, but he doesn't have any more of a hand in than the defense and the PK. It's the same thing. The problem, in both cases, is that we don't have a full picture. If the defense slowly falls apart over the course of the rest of the season, Quinn will get the blame the head coach deserves for that. If the defense maintains this level for the rest of the season, Quinn will get the credit the head coach deserves for that. If the offense turns around, Quinn will get the credit the head coach deserves for that. If the offense continues to suck, Quinn will get the blame the head coach deserves for that. Notice a trend here? The head coach gets the credit for the things that are good AND the blame for the things that are bad.

All of this can be informed by the personnel and the roster makeup, which is part of how much credit or blame really can be pinned on the coach, but it's no less true.

 

[True Blue]

On a serious note, you should probably sit this one out.

1) On a serious note, Quinn said nothing for the sort. What you are doin his taking his statement and twisting it to fit your narrative. Which is fine to do, but it does not make it true

2) On a more serious note, it’s pretty funny that you never hear about Quenville’s assistant coaches getting any credit for his system. Nor do you hear or even remember who the assistant coaches were under Lemaire and his system.

3) Finally on the more serious note, Singin’s response makes more sense than someone who is suffering from Quinn Derangement Syndrome. As someone who clearly suffers from this affliction, perhaps you should sit this one out.

 

[duhmetreE]

It’s like I didn’t write anything after what you bolded.

you wrote a lot to give Quinn credit.

He has done nothing, as of yet, to prove his 'fingerprints' are on the defense. He had 2 years and his defense was a tire fire. He has had 3 years now and his offense regressed, looks confused and it seems like his players dont even know what to do.

So, trying to sell this as a 'This is Quinn's system'... No, I'm not buying it.

IF he needs good/great coaches AND perfect players to 'implement' his system, he does not deserve credit and he is not a good coach. If you want to argue he's 'good at developing players', fine. But as an actual NHL caliber X's and O's coach, he's bottom of the barrel IMO

 

[duhmetreE]

1) On a serious note, Quinn said nothing for the sort. What you are doin his taking his statement and twisting it to fit your narrative. Which is fine to do, but it does not make it true

2) On a more serious note, it’s pretty funny that you never hear about Quenville’s assistant coaches getting any credit for his system. Nor do you hear or even remember who the assistant coaches were under Lemaire and his system.

3) Finally on the more serious note, Singin’s response makes more sense than someone who is suffering from Quinn Derangement Syndrome. As someone who clearly suffers from this affliction, perhaps you should sit this one out.

Jacques Martin >>>>>> David Quinn. The defense proves that.

is that really your argument. Are you inferring David Quinn is in a Quenville and Lemaire category?

David Quinn is here for ONE reason. To help develop boys into men. He's had success in most areas, he arguably struggled in 'high skill' areas.

I do not care who the head coach is as long as the team is playing well and winning. IF they want to get rid of Oliver and Brown and hire a 'Martin-equivalent' for offense, and keep the team cheerleader, I'm all for it.

 

[True Blue]

As always,

Breaking news. Quinn walks across the Hudson

Anti-Quinn brigade: Told you he couldn’t fly. Fire him.

 

[Tawnos]

you wrote a lot to give Quinn credit.

He has done nothing as of yet to prove his 'fingerprints' are on the defense. He had 2 years and his defense was a tire fire. He has had 3 years now and his offense regressed, looks confused and it seems like his players dont even know what to do.

So, trying to sell this as a 'This is Quinn's system'... No, I'm not buying it.

IF he needs good/great coaches AND perfect players to 'implement' his system, he does not deserve credit and he is not a good coach. If you want to argue he's 'good at developing players', fine. But as an actual NHL caliber X's and O's coach, he's bottom of the barrel IMO

I wrote to dispute the idea that the credit only belongs to the assistant coach. I don't have a pro-Quinn agenda. There are plenty of things Quinn does, like any coach, that I question. Like I said in my last post, he absolutely deserves blame for the offensive and PP failures so far this year.

He had two years with a tire fire of a defensive personnel and the defense was a tire fire. He's still to blame, because he sat there with a system that wasn't tailored to the defensemen and defensive capabilities of the forwards he had, but that context is definitely important here. They're playing the same system with some tweaks they played last year and the year before. Players are faster to fall into the structure in the D zone and there are more sticks in lanes, but it's the same structure.

Literally every head coach needs good/great assistant coaches to help... or you know, assist... with implementing their system. That's the role.

 

[True Blue]

Jacques Martin >>>>>> David Quinn. The defense proves that.

is that really your argument. Are you inferring David Quinn is in a Quenville and Lemaire category?

Are you really interpreting what I said as me lumping Quinn into Q’s or Lemaire’s category? Are you serious this obtuse?! Come on. That is stupidity of the highest order.

 

[Mikos87]

This is something that you see in any sport,
do you? Assistants being fired with zero input from the head coach? Just where have you seen such an act!

Happens from time to time, Bowman did to Quenneville in CHI I think. Teams can also quietly do it in the 0ff-season as well without any outside inclination. Calling for a coach's head is a time honored tradition in sports- and firings doesn't mean that the guy isn't going to get paid either.

So I wouldn't feel bad about it if it happened.

 

[duhmetreE]

Are you really interpreting what I said as me lumping Quinn into Q’s or Lemaire’s category? Are you serious this obtuse?! Come on. That is stupidity of the highest order.

2) On a more serious note, it’s pretty funny that you never hear about Quenville’s assistant coaches getting any credit for his system. Nor do you hear or even remember who the assistant coaches were under Lemaire and his system.

you very clearly state that Assistant Coaches are 'not known; or 'do not get credit' for great coaches.

Were you not inferring this logic to David Quinn? If you're not, it's an irrelevant statement that brings nothing to the conversation.

Either way, you're wrong. David Quinn is not a great coach and he relies on a good/great coach, Martin