Player Discussion David Quinn: Part II

[duhmetreE]

Everyone agrees that we need better defensive coverage.

That's not the point with the "shoot more!" crowd.

Analytics are based off of shots. If a team passes up a lot of shots, it will affect CF and xG.

It doesn't change CA / xGA. that's still bad until something changes.

 

[Machinehead]

Analytics are based off of shots. If a team passes up a lot of shots, it will affect CF and xG.

It doesn't change CA / xGA. that's still bad until something changes.

I can assure you, as someone that's followed analytics for several years, that the Rangers don't have bad shot metrics because they pass up shots.

They have bad shot metrics because they're the second best team on the ice almost every night.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

A better coach gets a lot more out of this roster. Especially on special teams.

By this roster, you mean the New York Rangers and their players?

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

It still amazes me when this comes up. Over the summer, when people were readying the parade, they were told that simply adding Panarin and Trouba was not going to get it done. Of course, as always, it as not the expectations that were faulty but rather poor coaching.

It comes down the effects of the garden ice or the T-Shirt cannons.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

I can assure you, as someone that's followed analytics for several years, that the Rangers don't have bad shot metrics because they pass up shots.

They have bad shot metrics because they're the second best team on the ice almost every night.

And this is either because this team is new and bad and coming off the worst ROW in franchise history, or it's because Lindy Ruff refuses to get name brand shampoo for the post game. He keeps buying the store brand which is never as good.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

2020 wishes.. Fire this fkn clown already!

That is all

And when we do worse, it will because instead of actually being Knoblauch's Knuckleheads, we were Tort's Kinda guyz all along

 

[Machinehead]

And this is either because this team is new and bad and coming off the worst ROW in franchise history, or it's because Lindy Ruff refuses to get name brand shampoo for the post game. He keeps buying the store brand which is never as good.

Both imo

 

[Deleted member 23124]

I wouldn't call it a mess, it was 100% with out a doubt better than what it currently is. We had a dip when we moved on to AV... Was to be expected, we opened things up... We were holding at middle of the pack... We had a tremendous fall once Ruff came on board. 215 GA to 270 GA... that's embarrassingly bad.

With Torts we were at the top in GA.
Under AV we were middle of the pack.
Once Ruff came on we were bottom of the barrel.

If we were hovering around 215 GA, we would be a playoff team.

While the stats do confirm your statements, I am still hesitant to put blame on Ruff...The "system" never changed. The longer they played AV's style, the worse the defensive numbers got.

Unless I'm missing something, I haven't seen any changes in their defensive strategy since DQ was hired. That's why I've questioned who is/was really making defensive decisions.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

I doubt Ruff is any sort of maligned genius, but I (sadly) lay more of the team’s defensive faults at the feet of Marc Staal, and the impact his poor play has on the rest of the 5 D up and down the pairs

 

[Athor]

I can assure you, as someone that's followed analytics for several years, that the Rangers don't have bad shot metrics because they pass up shots.

They have bad shot metrics because they're the second best team on the ice almost every night.

You do realize the two aren't mutually exclusive right?

I've followed analytics for several years now too, and the more you study them, the more you realize how ridiculously flawed they are. The people who developed them even admit this, yet it is still taken as gospel by stats community. They only show the results of what happens on the ice, nothing leading up to it or individual decisions players make to create that. Their predictive use, especially for young players, is essentially zero. The xG valuations on shots are completely arbitrary, and were developed by people with a limited sense of what is a dangerous shot. Almost the whole thing is based on proximity to the goal, which is often one of the less important aspects of a shot.

 

[Machinehead]

You do realize the two aren't mutually exclusive right?

I've followed analytics for several years now too, and the more you study them, the more you realize how ridiculously flawed they are. The people who developed them even admit this, yet it is still taken as gospel by stats community. They only show the results of what happens on the ice, nothing leading up to it or individual decisions players make to create that. Their predictive use, especially for young players, is essentially zero. The xG valuations on shots are completely arbitrary, and were developed by people with a limited sense of what is a dangerous shot. Almost the whole thing is based on proximity to the goal, which is often one of the less important aspects of a shot.

Who cares?

Again, we're just throwing smoke at the Rangers being a bad team because we don't wanna talk about that.

 

[JHS]

Boom..

All along, Rangers saw Quinn as obvious choice

Quinn isn’t that much younger than Vigneault, who turned 57 this month, but he’s into hockey analytics. He noted at his news conference that BU was one of the few colleges that had a full-time analytics person for the hockey team.

https://www.si.com/nhl/2018/10/04/david-quinn-new-york-rangers

But the 52-year-old Quinn also has a mind for mining data; he hired a full-time director of analytics at BU. "This isn't school," he says. "It's for us as a staff to analyze and when I do sit with somebody, I might be able to tell the players, 'Hey, these things are happening and here are the numbers to back it up.'" And the Rangers believe that his well-known patience in developing young players

Would you like to share some popcorn @JHS ? LOL

Would you please stop posting facts here— it ruins the narrative that Quinn was a better hire than Trotz and is a “developmental coach” who just had a top 10 pick quit the organization under his watch( ok maybe not all his fault but he did not help.)

 

[NYR]

It is his system.. Isn't it similar to what the Canadian or US junior team runs? I don't have a problem with the system because it works when implemented properly. Who's implementing the system and coaching up the players? Yes, it ultimately falls on Quinn but firing Quinn is not realistic.

Ruff is the 'whipping boy' because he's in charge of the defense/PK and yet, he has never been known for having a strong defensive team. I've soured slightly on Quinn this season and still see him as a 'development' coach. He's our babysitter.

I get what you're saying but is it really fair to compare the those teams?
They have the best of the best players utilizing those systems.

They can fire Ruff but I feel that he would just be a scapegoat at this point all while the defensive issue continues under DQ.

Again, not defending Ruff (in today's game) but if you consider his track record with the crap teams he's had to work with, I'd say he's done pretty well.

There's some talented players on this team.
Adjust the system to support the players you have on the ice and stop with the f***ing experiments already.
Pre- season is long gone.
It's that simple.

DQ refuses to do any of that.
No linemates have chemistry.
PP is now trash.

He always seems to f*** up what's been working all along.

On the other side of the fence, you have a GM who puts trash on the ice instead of a supporting cast of players that can fill important roles for this team.

 

[NYR]

Would you please stop posting facts here— it ruins the narrative that Quinn was a better hire than Trotz and is a “developmental coach” who just had a top 10 pick quit the organization under his watch( ok maybe not all his fault but he did not help.)

DevelopMENTAL with analytics

 

[JHS]

Last night vs the Hurricanes is a classic example of how the team wins despite the coach not because. When they were up 4-1 after a TV time out when he has essentially the entire bench to chose from to start the next shift with, he starts the 4th line! Bammm less than 30 seconds later it’s 4-2. That’s just lazy coaching or a total unawareness. This is not the first time this has happened and I’ve noticed this trend a lot with Quinn where, for some reason he just uses lines in weird ways and does not have a real matchup mindset( or is just not that good at it.)

 

[Inferno]

Last night vs the Hurricanes is a classic example of how the team wins despite the coach not because. When they were up 4-1 after a TV time out when he has essentially the entire bench to chose from to start the next shift with, he starts the 4th line! Bammm less than 30 seconds later it’s 4-2. That’s just lazy coaching or a total unawareness. This is not the first time this has happened and I’ve noticed this trend a lot with Quinn where, for some reason he just uses lines in weird ways and does not have a real matchup mindset( or is just not that good at it.)

The rangers don't play their 4th line enough!

Also, why are the rangers playing their 4th line?!


Theres more input needed on the play you're describing. Where was the faceoff? Who was on the ice? What were the last 2 shifts before that? How many minutes had the rangers best players played till that point?

Being up 3 is literally the best time to start giving more minutes to your 4th line, not the worst.

Zibenajad and panarin are both top 8 in the NHL in toi per game among forwards...giving minutes to our best players hasn't been an issue at all.

 

[Blue Blooded]

The rangers don't play their 4th line enough!

Also, why are the rangers playing their 4th line?!


Theres more input needed on the play you're describing. Where was the faceoff? Who was on the ice? What were the last 2 shifts before that? How many minutes had the rangers best players played till that point?

Being up 3 is literally the best time to start giving more minutes to your 4th line, not the worst.

Zibenajad and panarin are both top 8 in the NHL in toi per game among forwards...giving minutes to our best players hasn't been an issue at all.

The issue right now isn't that our 4L stinks, that can usually be managed by rolling the top three lines. The issue is that the 3L and the 4L both stink, which cannot be covered up.

 

[Quinnisinoverhishead]

Horrible coach. Sitting back on a 2 goal lead in the third period against the leafs. Didn’t work the first 10 minutes. Why would it work the last 10? How many chances do you want to give an offensive power house. Best way to defend is in the offensive zone.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Okay, I started with an A because of how well so many of the younger players had developed. And then, I dinged him for how the team’s systems didn’t seem to be adapting/improving. And now, tonight, he has two lefties, Lindgren and effin’ Staal of all people, starting together in the D zone with less than a minute to go...

...and, bang, goal against.

WTF is it with EVERY coach and Staal more than half a decade since the injury that turned him from a top pairing guy into an ECHL player?

 

[JHS]

The rangers don't play their 4th line enough!

Also, why are the rangers playing their 4th line?!


Theres more input needed on the play you're describing. Where was the faceoff? Who was on the ice? What were the last 2 shifts before that? How many minutes had the rangers best players played till that point?

Being up 3 is literally the best time to start giving more minutes to your 4th line, not the worst.

Zibenajad and panarin are both top 8 in the NHL in toi per game among forwards...giving minutes to our best players hasn't been an issue at all.

It was an offensive zone start— that’s all I remember. As a coach though, after a TV timeout when the entire bench has had 3 or so minutes to rest, I don’t understand putting the worst option you have on the ice. Makes 0 sense to me. If he’s rolling lines than fine but not after the TV timeout.

As others have said, the 4th line is really a line that should be getting about 5-7 minutes tops each night and used in very limited ways. I could see how an offensive zone start is a low risk start but makes 0 sense after a tv time out.

 

[SA16]

It was a 4–1 game their win probability at that point was in the high 90% range it’s not a big deal. Doing that in a 1 goal or tied game is extremely poor coaching.

 

[duhmetreE]

I get what you're saying but is it really fair to compare the those teams?
They have the best of the best players utilizing those systems.

They can fire Ruff but I feel that he would just be a scapegoat at this point all while the defensive issue continues under DQ.

Again, not defending Ruff (in today's game) but if you consider his track record with the crap teams he's had to work with, I'd say he's done pretty well.

There's some talented players on this team.
Adjust the system to support the players you have on the ice and stop with the ****ing experiments already.
Pre- season is long gone.
It's that simple.

DQ refuses to do any of that.
No linemates have chemistry.
PP is now trash.

He always seems to **** up what's been working all along.

On the other side of the fence, you have a GM who puts trash on the ice instead of a supporting cast of players that can fill important roles for this team.

If teenagers in the juniors can comprehend the system and execute it, NHL players should be able to.

There's only 1 way to find out. It's the pragmatic and logical step. Fire Ruff... After an allotted amount of time, if there's still no structure and lots of confusion, fire Quinn.

To me, Ruff is to coaches what Staal is to defensemen. The game may have passed them by... not meant for this era

 

[Deleted member 23124]

If teenagers in the juniors can comprehend the system and execute it, NHL players should be able to.

There's only 1 way to find out. It's the pragmatic and logical step. Fire Ruff... After an allotted amount of time, if there's still no structure and lots of confusion, fire Quinn.

To me, Ruff is to coaches what Staal is to defensemen. The game may have passed them by... not meant for this era

I have no doubt the defensive woes will continue even if Ruff is fired. They were a concern long before he got here.

 

[Blue Blooded]

I have no doubt the defensive woes will continue even if Ruff is fired. They were a concern long before he got here.

While our defence was an issue before Ruff, the issue was compounded by several magnitudes after he was hired. Someone broke down the numbers on it a little while ago and the difference was stark.

 

[Deleted member 23124]

While our defence was an issue before Ruff, the issue was compounded by several magnitudes after he was hired. Someone broke down the numbers on it a little while ago and the difference was stark.

I saw that....but the fact remains that "style" or whatever has not changed...the d-corps are making the same bonehead errors no matter who is on the roster.