Dave Hakstol

[Beef Invictus]

Also look at how healthy and productive Mason was for Winnipeg this past season once he got away from Hak's mismanagement.

Or he never recovered.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Is it wrong, then, to let forwards & defensemen play 82 games? To play back to back? Should they call up the Phantoms for back to back games?

Your MLB pitcher analogy to NHL goaltendending is ridiculous. Don’t you think maybe NHL defenseman is a little more analogous than a position revolving around throwing a ball 100 times? Or even MLB catcher, where they frequently play 4-5 times per week?

I already covered that. Goalies use a range of motion that strains their body more than dmen and forwards. There is more risk for various injuries, and an injured goalie stands to be much more of a detriment than a skater.

You have never answered this question: Why do you think no other NHL coach handles his goalies like Hakstol does? Why doesn't anybody else drive mediocre goalies like they're stars?

 

[Striiker]

How many times do you need me to tell you I don’t think Simmonds (who blew it) should’ve been on the ice in the last 2 minutes? I’ve said it at least 3 times. Is 4 enough?

How many times do you plan on answering a question I didn't even ask? Don't worry, your acknowledgment of Simmonds being a mistake has been noted.

I'm talking about the rest of them.

 

[deadhead]

Bryzgalov started 57 games for Lavi in 2011-12. 40 out of 48 games in 2012-13.

 

[VladDrag]

Bryzgalov started 57 games for Lavi in 2011-12. 40 out of 48 games in 2012-13.

He also had a track record of playing 69, 65, 68, 69 games the previous 4 years.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I already covered that. Goalies use a range of motion that strains their body more than dmen and forwards. There is more risk for various injuries, and an injured goalie stands to be much more of a detriment than a skater.

You have never answered this question: Why do you think no other NHL coach handles his goalies like Hakstol does? Why doesn't anybody else drive mediocre goalies like they're stars?

No other NHL coach handles his goalies like Hakstol does?

More hyperbole.

12 goalies played 60+ games this season.

5 were 65+.

Injuries also forced Hakstol’s hand. There were plenty of times he only had one NHL goalie available to play.

Brodeur played 70+ games 12 times, including 10 straight seasons. He played 77 games 3 times & 78 games once.

His being a better player than Elliott is irrelevant to durability. By your logic, Brodeur shouldn’t physically have been able to come close to playing that many games.

But whatever. We’re going in circles. What it boils down to is that saying Hakstol was the reason for Mason’s injury is nothing but speculation.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No other NHL coach handles his goalies like Hakstol does?

More hyperbole.

12 goalies played 60+ games this season.

5 were 65+.

Injuries also forced Hakstol’s hand. There were plenty of times he only had one NHL goalie available to play.

Brodeur played 70+ games 12 times, including 10 straight seasons. He played 77 games 3 times & 78 games once.

His being a better player than Elliott is irrelevant to durability. By your logic, Brodeur shouldn’t physically have been able to come close to playing that many games.

But whatever. We’re going in circles. What it boils down to is that saying Hakstol was the reason for Mason’s injury is nothing but speculation.

We've been over that too. Recall that I've emphasized I'm talking about goalies comparable to ours. It makes sense to work with comparable situations, don't you think? Rather than pretending we have goalies who can be compared to someone like Lundqvist or Bernie Parent.


Those goalies you listed are not Elliott or Neuvirth, nor are they like them. Those goalies have proven they can handle that starter workload in ways Elliott and Neuvy never, ever have; hence why they are a platoon. See, individuals have different traits and skills and talents. Someone like Brodeur had the talent and build to allow them to be a workhouse at a high level without getting hurt. You know who isn't on Brodeur's level in either way? Our goalies. And that reality is apparent to everyone but Hakstol and his defenders.


We are going in circles now, and your arguments are weak. No other competent coach with goalies like Elliott and Neuvirth uses them like Hakstol does. There is reason for that.

Have fun spending your time resisting all criticism of Hakstol while pretending you aren't a partisan for him.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

We're really doing this whole "you have no actual proof that playing 20 straight games as a goalie and multiple back to backs led to an injury" thing again?

 

[deadhead]

The problem is the criticism of Hakstol is so over the top it's ridiculous.
This was a mediocre team talentwise that managed 98 points, all the attempts to rationalize it as anything more fall short.

Ghost and Provorov are the only quality defensemen, four good forwards, only two of whom are considered top players outside of this board (Giroux and Couts), and both had career years b/c the HC put them on the same line.

Simmons is a mediocre 3LW, Patrick a mediocre 3C (hobbled half the year), Raffl a 4th liner on most teams, same with Laughton, those are your 5th to 8th best forwards last year, then you have Filppula et al.
Five 3rd pair defensemen.
Two backup goalies.

Solid playoff teams have two solid lines and 4 solid defensemen, we didn't come close to that last year, and almost every playoff team had a goalie who was above average.

So Hakstol may not be a great HC, but he wasn't carried by his "talent" because he didn't have that kind of talent.

 

[hatcher]

The problem is the criticism of Hakstol is so over the top it's ridiculous.
This was a mediocre team talentwise that managed 98 points, all the attempts to rationalize it as anything more fall short.

Ghost and Provorov are the only quality defensemen, four good forwards, only two of whom are considered top players outside of this board (Giroux and Couts), and both had career years b/c the HC put them on the same line.

Simmons is a mediocre 3LW, Patrick a mediocre 3C (hobbled half the year), Raffl a 4th liner on most teams, same with Laughton, those are your 5th to 8th best forwards last year, then you have Filppula et al.
Five 3rd pair defensemen.
Two backup goalies.

Solid playoff teams have two solid lines and 4 solid defensemen, we didn't come close to that last year, and almost every playoff team had a goalie who was above average.

So Hakstol may not be a great HC, but he wasn't carried by his "talent" because he didn't have that kind of talent.

Bingo. Can we all go for summer vacation LOL.

 

[Striiker]

bump

Weird that the Flyers problem was a "lack of talent" when their top scorers outperformed the cup champs top scorers. Guess Hakstol can't blame the amount of talent he was given after all.

Giroux - 102	Ovi - 87
Voracek - 85	Kuznetsov - 83
Couturier - 76	Backstrom - 71
Konecny - 47 (despite being horribly underused)	Oshie - 47
Simmonds - 41	Eller - 38
Filppula (would easily be Patrick if used properly) - 33	Wilson - 35
Ghost - 65	Carlson - 68
Provorov - 41	Orlov - 31
Total for Flyers top 6 scoring forwards - 384	Total for Capitals top 6 scoring forwards - 361
Total for Flyers top 2 scoring defensemen - 106	Total for Capitals top 2 scoring defensemen - 99

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

And overall, the Caps scored a grand total of 7 more goals last year (thanks to not having a Hakstol-like figure forcing horrible players in huge roles). The Flyers would have easily outscored them for the year if Hakstol doesn't make a few indefensible mistakes.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

We've been over that too. Recall that I've emphasized I'm talking about goalies comparable to ours. It makes sense to work with comparable situations, don't you think? Rather than pretending we have goalies who can be compared to someone like Lundqvist or Bernie Parent.


Those goalies you listed are not Elliott or Neuvirth, nor are they like them. Those goalies have proven they can handle that starter workload in ways Elliott and Neuvy never, ever have; hence why they are a platoon. See, individuals have different traits and skills and talents. Someone like Brodeur had the talent and build to allow them to be a workhouse at a high level without getting hurt. You know who isn't on Brodeur's level in either way? Our goalies. And that reality is apparent to everyone but Hakstol and his defenders.


We are going in circles now, and your arguments are weak. No other competent coach with goalies like Elliott and Neuvirth uses them like Hakstol does. There is reason for that.

Have fun spending your time resisting all criticism of Hakstol while pretending you aren't a partisan for him.

Your argument seems to be that the physical effort required of the goaltending position makes playing in 20 games in a row an extremely difficult effort & one likely to cause injury.

But you dismiss examples of goalies who play a lot, saying things like they have the build & talent to do it, but Elliott & Neuvirth don’t. First, I don’t understand why skill level has any relation to durability. Second, as for build, I’ve seen plenty of guys Brodeur’s size & bigger be injury prone, & smaller guys be durable, so you’re just talking out of your ass.

 

[deadhead]

bump

Barzal 85 points
JT 84 points
Bailey 71 points
Lee 62 points
Eberle 59 points
Beauvillier 36 points
Nelson 35 points
Ladd 29 points

Leddy 42 points
Pulock 32 points
Hickey 25 points

Halak and Greiss are as talented as Elliott and Neuvirth.

If scoring made you a great player, the Islanders would have been a top team last year.

 

[kudymen]

I'm starting to think some front office members are reading the boards and they offer jobs to people who crawl the deepest in their anuses. "Have you seen his file?" LOL in capital letters

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Didn't Keenan start fuhr inevery single game of the season? Wonder how those playoff games went.

 

[Striiker]

Caps won cup

Flyers had superior top end talent

Flyers problem wasn't talent

ez pz

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Didn't Keenan start fuhr inevery single game of the season? Wonder how those playoff games went.

Fuhr started 79 games that season, including the first 76 straight.

Got hurt in the playoffs when someone fell on his knee. Had nothing to do with overuse.

He’s 5’11” 184.

The assumption that starting 23 games in a row caused Elliott’s injury is based on zero evidence. I think it’s certainly more likely he got hurt making a save, like plenty of goalies do, & it would have happened regardless of workload.

 

[deadhead]

As far as the Caps, Ovechkin had 49 goals (which trumps points, I'm starting to look at P1, b/c scorers are too generous with secondary assists, padding stats).

Ovechkin, Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Oshie, Eller, Wilson was a deeper top six than we were fielding last year.
Playoffs:
Ovechkin 24g 15-12 27 - career 121g 61-56 117
Kuznetsov 24g 12-20 32 - career 63g 23-28 51
Backstrom 20g 5-18 23 - career 116g 31-7 98
Oshie 24g 8-13 21 - career 79g 23-29 52
Eller 24g 7-11 18 - career 74g 13-28 41
Wilson 21g 5-10 15 - career 62g 8-12 20

Flyer Career PO numbers
Giroux 69g 24-41 65
Voracek 34g 5-14 19
Simmonds 42g 8-13 21
Couts 24g 8-5 13
Read 30g 5-5 10

Filpulla 158g 25-57 82
Lehtera 39g 4-13 17

Carlson, Orlov, Niskanen a better trio than we could field (Orpik could switch out with Hagg!)

Holtby had an off year, but regular season combined .913 S% versus our .907%5
Hotbly then returned to form in the playoffs with a .922 S%
Gee, I wonder if we'd have looked better with Holtby rather than Elliott/Neuvirth (.852%) in the playoffs?

Washington was a far more talented team, hands down, so was Pittsburgh.
For us to match them, Patrick has to take a big step up, we need to find a decent 3C, Sanheim has to become a top 4 defenseman, and we need to upgrade our goalies.

 

[Curufinwe]

Or he never recovered.

So Mason's multiple concussions as a Jet in 17-18 were the result of overuse as a Flyer in the 15-16 and 16-17 seasons during which he suffered zero concussions.

Makes sense.

Steve Mason injury update: Jets goalie out with second concussion of season

 

[Adtar02]

The problem is the criticism of Hakstol is so over the top it's ridiculous.
This was a mediocre team talentwise that managed 98 points, all the attempts to rationalize it as anything more fall short.

Ghost and Provorov are the only quality defensemen, four good forwards, only two of whom are considered top players outside of this board (Giroux and Couts), and both had career years b/c the HC put them on the same line.

Simmons is a mediocre 3LW, Patrick a mediocre 3C (hobbled half the year), Raffl a 4th liner on most teams, same with Laughton, those are your 5th to 8th best forwards last year, then you have Filppula et al.
Five 3rd pair defensemen.
Two backup goalies.

Solid playoff teams have two solid lines and 4 solid defensemen, we didn't come close to that last year, and almost every playoff team had a goalie who was above average.

So Hakstol may not be a great HC, but he wasn't carried by his "talent" because he didn't have that kind of talent.

Simply put this is why people get frustrated. It’s simmonds and he is a rw. And he had a bad year but is a pretty good right wing for the third line I makes everything else not worth reading because you can’t get simple things right how could you grasp complex things

 

[Adtar02]

Your argument seems to be that the physical effort required of the goaltending position makes playing in 20 games in a row an extremely difficult effort & one likely to cause injury.

But you dismiss examples of goalies who play a lot, saying things like they have the build & talent to do it, but Elliott & Neuvirth don’t. First, I don’t understand why skill level has any relation to durability. Second, as for build, I’ve seen plenty of guys Brodeur’s size & bigger be injury prone, & smaller guys be durable, so you’re just talking out of your ass.

NO HIS ARGUEMENT IS IT IS MORE LIKELY TO INJURE OUR GOALIES NOT ELITE STARTERS. OUR GROUP CANT HANDLE AND NEVER HAVE BEEN ABLE TO IN THEIR FING CAREERS

 

[Beef Invictus]

So Mason's multiple concussions as a Jet in 17-18 were the result of overuse as a Flyer in the 15-16 and 16-17 seasons during which he suffered zero concussions.

Makes sense.

Steve Mason injury update: Jets goalie out with second concussion of season

If you're only talking about concussions, why would you even bring them up? We are talking about wear and tear injuries. Concussions are an entirely different beast.

 

[deadhead]

Simply put this is why people get frustrated. It’s simmonds and he is a rw. And he had a bad year but is a pretty good right wing for the third line I makes everything else not worth reading because you can’t get simple things right how could you grasp complex things

Simmonds hasn't been a pretty good right wing for three years.
If you can't get simple things right why should I take you seriously?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Your argument seems to be that the physical effort required of the goaltending position makes playing in 20 games in a row an extremely difficult effort & one likely to cause injury.

But you dismiss examples of goalies who play a lot, saying things like they have the build & talent to do it, but Elliott & Neuvirth don’t. First, I don’t understand why skill level has any relation to durability. Second, as for build, I’ve seen plenty of guys Brodeur’s size & bigger be injury prone, & smaller guys be durable, so you’re just talking out of your ass.

Why are you refusing to understand that some goalies are capable of playing a lot, and that OUR goalies are not those goalies? That's the entire problem with Hakstol's goalie usage.

Why skill is important: If your skill level is low, like if you aren't keeping your angles well, then you will be pushing harder to get back in position to make saves. There is more reliance on athleticism. That leads to injuries. Both our goalies happen to struggle with their angles, btw.


It's really telling that my argument has remained the same the entire time, and you've been all over the place.

Simmonds hasn't been a pretty good right wing for three years.
If you can't get simple things right why should I take you seriously?

You are talking about 30 goals and 60 points in 2 of those three years, and about a period where until last season he had steadily increased in usefulness all-around. Are you sure you're reading the stats columns right? Are you sure you're even on the right player?

NO HIS ARGUEMENT IS IT IS MORE LIKELY TO INJURE OUR GOALIES NOT ELITE STARTERS. OUR GROUP CANT HANDLE AND NEVER HAVE BEEN ABLE TO IN THEIR FING CAREERS

Yeah, it's this. And that is really obvious. That Hakstol doesn't understand what his goalies are is a testament to his awful understanding of the roster and how badly he mismanages it.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

My brain honestly hurts.