Dave Hakstol

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Ghosts Beer

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You can predict injuries very easily when you play Neuvirth like Hakstol did. Posters here predicted it, and we were unhappy at the prospect of losing both our NHL goalies. We were right. It was very easily predictable.

If he is always one stretch away from injury, then maximizing the number of stretches he does in a short period maximizes the chances of injury.
So then when your starter gets hurt, split time with your NHL backup & untested, average AHL statistically, rookie?

BS. You go with Neuvirth over Lyon, & if Neuvirth can’t handle it, then you deal with it.
 

Adtar02

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How do you know Elliott’s injury wasn’t a “fluke” injury just like Quick’s?

There’s zero evidence for your “Hakstol wore Elliott down & caused his injury” theory. It’s all speculation, & it ignores that goalies can suffer pulled or torn core muscles on any individual save, regardless of workload.

And Elliott was on a 65 game pace before going on IR, not “70-80.” That’s nothing Earth shattering, & part of it was necessitated by China doll Neuvirth being hurt for a while. Goalies used to be expected to play around 65 games. 12 goalies still played 60+ games this season.
I would think the evidence is in the fact that he played them both so much and they both got hurt. One is older and use to less than 65 games a year the other is fragile. So why ride them till they break
 

Adtar02

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Actually, a lot of NHL coaches manage their goalies like that.

Hellenbuyck 67 games (56 games the year before)
Bob 65 games (63)
Anderson 66 (66)
Vasilevskiy 65 (50) at age 23
Talbot 67 (73)
Quick 64 (other seasons 68, 72, 69, 72)
Lundqvist 63 (at age 35, at age 24-27: 70, 72, 70, 73)
Rinne 59 (61, 64, 63)
Dubnyk 60 (65, 67)
Gibson 60

Guess riding your #1 is pretty common, huh?
Brian Elliott Stats and News

Most games Elliot ever played in a season is 55

He shouldn’t be used that way. Has never been and breaks when he is.

Here’s the other one
Michal Neuvirth Stats and News
 

Ghosts Beer

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I would think the evidence is in the fact that he played them both so much and they both got hurt. One is older and use to less than 65 games a year the other is fragile. So why ride them till they break
Neuvirth always gets hurt.
There’s zero evidence that playing Elliott like a 60+ game #1 caused his injury. What, if he was on a 50 game track instead of 65 he wouldn’t have pulled a muscle? Garbage.
 

Beef Invictus

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So then when your starter gets hurt, split time with your NHL backup & untested, average AHL statistically, rookie?

BS. You go with Neuvirth over Lyon, & if Neuvirth can’t handle it, then you deal with it.


Yes. For the long-term good, you limit the chance of injury by giving Lyon a game or two, rather than guaranteeing he wil need to play more than that because you broke both your NHL goalies. This is called roster management.
 
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Beef Invictus

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Neuvirth always gets hurt.
There’s zero evidence that playing Elliott like a 60+ game #1 caused his injury. What, if he was on a 50 game track instead of 65 he wouldn’t have pulled a muscle? Garbage.

Actually, yes, that's quite possible and even likely, though that is still an irresponsible pace for Elliott.
 
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Adtar02

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Neuvirth always gets hurt.
There’s zero evidence that playing Elliott like a 60+ game #1 caused his injury. What, if he was on a 50 game track instead of 65 he wouldn’t have pulled a muscle? Garbage.
When has he played like that in his career 1 or 2 years. He is a goalie that shares starts same with neuvirth. That how you have to use them.
 
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Garbage Goal

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Actually, yes, that's quite possible and even likely, though that is still an irresponsible pace for Elliott.

The other side of this being that it's just about how the goalies are deployed as much as how many games. In the NHL the schedule is very long and sometimes it gets really cramped while other times it gets very sporadic. In result, we get a lot of B2B games and intense stretches. Most normal coaches and teams split goalie starts in B2B games and have a limit to how many consecutive games they are willing to play a goalie. Hakstol prefers to just arbitrarily play whichever goalie won the last game, even if the last game was the first of a B2B. Regardless of how well they did or didn't play, just if they won or not.

We always recognize that during the season and call it out when it happens and then the usual contrarians come out during the off-season to point at the number of games played and pretend as if that is the real problem.

An even more egregious case happened with Mason and then he was dead by the time we got to the playoffs. Even sticking to amount of games played, as the other smart poster was pointing out, Elliott never plays 60~ games because his whole career he has been a platoon/tandem goalie and was signed as such. 65 games is a lot even for an actual starting goalie. Talbot got driven into the ground last season because the Oilers have done that to him two seasons in a row.
 
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freakydallas13

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There is zero evidence that over playing goalies makes them more fatigued and injury prone? Is this actually what I'm reading?

Why don't coaches just trot their starting goaltenders out there for 82 games every year then? Or maybe, just maybe, a 32 year old goalie whose career high in starts was 8 years ago (at 55 games) isn't ready to play 65+ games a year?
 

Ghosts Beer

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The other side of this being that it's just about how the goalies are deployed as much as how many games. In the NHL the schedule is very long and sometimes it gets really cramped while other times it gets very sporadic. In result, we get a lot of B2B games and intense stretches. Most normal coaches and teams split goalie starts in B2B games and have a limit to how many consecutive games they are willing to play a goalie. Hakstol prefers to just arbitrarily play whichever goalie won the last game, even if the last game was the first of a B2B. Regardless of how well they did or didn't play, just if they won or not.

We always recognize that during the season and call it out when it happens and then the usual contrarians come out during the off-season to point at the number of games played and pretend as if that is the real problem.

An even more egregious case happened with Mason and then he was dead by the time we got to the playoffs.

You’re an NHL coach, helming one of many teams on the fringe of the playoffs. Your starting goaltender gets hurt. Your options are your NHL backup, who has excelled at times, but been injury prone; or an undrafted AHL goalie with average AHL stats. Yeah, I’m riding Neuvirth until his probably inevitable injury. But at the least I don’t consider the opinion to do so an “egregious” error.
 

FLYguy3911

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The other side of this being that it's just about how the goalies are deployed as much as how many games. In the NHL the schedule is very long and sometimes it gets really cramped while other times it gets very sporadic. In result, we get a lot of B2B games and intense stretches. Most normal coaches and teams split goalie starts in B2B games and have a limit to how many consecutive games they are willing to play a goalie. Hakstol prefers to just arbitrarily play whichever goalie won the last game, even if the last game was the first of a B2B. Regardless of how well they did or didn't play, just if they won or not.

We always recognize that during the season and call it out when it happens and then the usual contrarians come out during the off-season to point at the number of games played and pretend as if that is the real problem.

An even more egregious case happened with Mason and then he was dead by the time we got to the playoffs. Even sticking to amount of games played, as the other smart poster was pointing out, Elliott never plays 60~ games because his whole career he has been a platoon/tandem goalie and was signed as such. 65 games is a lot even for an actual starting goalie. Talbot got driven into the ground last season because the Oilers have done that to him two seasons in a row.
Hakstol is as superstitious as it gets.
 

freakydallas13

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You’re an NHL coach, helming one of many teams on the fringe of the playoffs. Your starting goaltender gets hurt. Your options are your NHL backup, who has excelled at times, but been injury prone; or an undrafted AHL goalie with average AHL stats. Yeah, I’m riding Neuvirth until his probably inevitable injury. But at the least I don’t consider the opinion to do so an “egregious” error.
Putting your starting goaltender in situation where it is more likely he gets hurt, when it could have been reduced with ease, is bad coaching. I don't care how many mental gymnastics you do to get out it:

Fact: Elliot has never played as much as Hak played him
Fact: Elliot is 32, and his body is starting to wear down
Fact: We have a backup who is capable of playing ~25 games with ease
Fact: Hak could have easily not played Elliot in BOTH ends of a few back to backs, saving on fatigue and wear and tear
Fact: Hak did not do this
Fact: Eliot got injured
Fact: Hak did not make is less likely Elliot would get worn down and injured
Fact: Hak DID put his goal tender in a position where it was more likely they were going to suck due to over-usage
Fact(?): This is bad roster management

The last one is just the conclusion of all of those facts, so not *really* a fact. But if you have an argument against it I would like to hear it.
 

Captain Dave Poulin

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The other side of this being that it's just about how the goalies are deployed as much as how many games. In the NHL the schedule is very long and sometimes it gets really cramped while other times it gets very sporadic. In result, we get a lot of B2B games and intense stretches. Most normal coaches and teams split goalie starts in B2B games and have a limit to how many consecutive games they are willing to play a goalie. Hakstol prefers to just arbitrarily play whichever goalie won the last game, even if the last game was the first of a B2B. Regardless of how well they did or didn't play, just if they won or not.

We always recognize that during the season and call it out when it happens and then the usual contrarians come out during the off-season to point at the number of games played and pretend as if that is the real problem.

An even more egregious case happened with Mason and then he was dead by the time we got to the playoffs. Even sticking to amount of games played, as the other smart poster was pointing out, Elliott never plays 60~ games because his whole career he has been a platoon/tandem goalie and was signed as such. 65 games is a lot even for an actual starting goalie. Talbot got driven into the ground last season because the Oilers have done that to him two seasons in a row.

Yep, Fire Hakstok, I couldn't agree more.
 

AndHeMissedTheNet

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I think about this upcoming season and i'm legitimately excited for hockey to be back... until i remember that this dunce is still the Flyers head coach and that Elliott and Mr. Glass are still the Flyers goaltending tandem.

My fingers are crossed that Hart kicks off his AHL career by posting, like, 6 shutouts in 9 games and forces Hexy to bring him up. Neuvy should be injured by about then anyway.
 

Captain Dave Poulin

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Imagine thinking you’re taking the middle ground on the coach and defending him for 5 pages on a message board. :laugh:

I guess it depends what you consider the middle ground. Like, I almost wish that an asteroid would strike him and obliterate his person, but that seems extreme - on the other hand, it seems equally (and I mean exactly equally) extreme to wish him to keep coaching our favorite team, you know? So, to me, the middle ground is Fire Hakstok.
 

VladDrag

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Neuvirth always gets hurt.
There’s zero evidence that playing Elliott like a 60+ game #1 caused his injury. What, if he was on a 50 game track instead of 65 he wouldn’t have pulled a muscle? Garbage.

Yes there is. It was likely a sports hernia, based when/how the injury happened, the fact that goalies are more likely to experience a sports hernia (and they are also common in hockey based on the amount of core muscles used), and the attempted treatment prior to surgery (being placed on IR for a week).

In December, where he played every game, he had a Save% of .927 in 12 GP in the month of December. Prior to that, he also played 10 of 13 games in November. Then in January, his play jumped off a cliff. He had a save% of .874 in 7 of 10 games prior to going on IR the first time (missing 4 games).

Just to add all of that together, he played in 29/35 (83%) of games in a 3-month period. For reference, Bobrovski played in 30/38 games (78%); Gibson played in 29/38 games (76%). This doesn't even account for on ice and off ice training. That's a very high demand for an athlete of his age, particularly one that he never did before.

He obviously came back too early. The 3rd game back was final straw, and sustained the final blow that required surgery.

To say that there is zero evidence for that is quite frankly wrong, and shows that you don't have a good understanding of how and why injuries occur in the first place. Very rarely do freak injuries occur, in other words, they don't happen just because.
 
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Curufinwe

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An even more egregious case happened with Mason and then he was dead by the time we got to the playoffs.

In 15-16, Mason played every game down the stretch because Neuvirth was injured. The other option was a 22 year old Stolarz. I remember that vividly because that hack Isaac blocked me on twitter when I made fun of him for claiming Hakstol would pull Mase for Stolie after the 1st period of a game where he gave up two goals.

Flyers lose Michal Neuvirth for 3 weeks amid tough wild card race

Eyeballing their game logs from that season, it looks like Neuvirth had one set of back to back starts on 12/10/15 & 12/11/15.

Michal Neuvirth Stats and News

Mason had four, but the first one wasn't until 3/11/16 & 3/12/16. The rest came after Neuvirth's injury.

Steve Mason Stats and News
 
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Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
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Yes there is. It was likely a sports hernia, based when/how the injury happened, the fact that goalies are more likely to experience a sports hernia (and they are also common in hockey based on the amount of core muscles used), and the attempted treatment prior to surgery (being placed on IR for a week).

In December, where he played every game, he had a Save% of .927 in 12 GP in the month of December. Prior to that, he also played 10 of 13 games in November. Then in January, his play jumped off a cliff. He had a save% of .874 in 7 of 10 games prior to going on IR the first time (missing 4 games).

Just to add all of that together, he played in 29/35 (83%) of games in a 3-month period. For reference, Bobrovski played in 30/38 games (78%); Gibson played in 29/38 games (76%). This doesn't even account for on ice and off ice training. That's a very high demand for an athlete of his age, particularly one that he never did before.

He obviously came back too early. The 3rd game back was final straw, and sustained the final blow that required surgery.

To say that there is zero evidence for that is quite frankly wrong, and shows that you don't have a good understanding of how and why injuries occur in the first place. Very rarely do freak injuries occur, in other words, they don't happen just because.
“Very rarely do freak injuries occur.”

Huh?

I’d bet that the majority of injuries occur in a chance moment.

Goalies suffer pulls & tears making saves at all points of the season & whether they play frequently or sparingly. Quick suffered a groin pull in the opening game in 2016.

All those acting like it’s a “fact” that Elliott’s injury was the result of Hakstol overusing him are talking out of their asses. It’s pure conjecture. Is it possible he was worn down & that caused the injury? I guess. But it’s just as possible he suffered it making a reflex save attempt & that his workload had nothing to do with it.
 

VladDrag

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“Very rarely do freak injuries occur.”

Huh?

I’d bet that the majority of injuries occur in a chance moment.

Goalies suffer pulls & tears making saves at all points of the season & whether they play frequently or sparingly. Quick suffered a groin pull in the opening game in 2016.

All those acting like it’s a “fact” that Elliott’s injury was the result of Hakstol overusing him are talking out of their asses. It’s pure conjecture. Is it possible he was worn down & that caused the injury? I guess. But it’s just as possible he suffered it making a reflex save attempt & that his workload had nothing to do with it.

I don't even know what you mean by "I’d bet that the majority of injuries occur in a chance moment." Things happen for a reason, it's physics.

Injuries occur because of overuse (which can be the cause an acute injury), lack of joint mobility, muscle imbalance, lack of strength, poor training technique, improper stress to ligaments, muscles, tendons etc..

It's not a freak thing, there's a reason you get a pulled muscle, it's not just because.

The fact is you are wrong by saying there is zero evidence that his work load caused the injury. There is plenty of evidence, to suggest there isn't is wrong. I'm not saying his injury was caused by overuse/fatigue, but there's clear evidence that the possibility is very real.
 

Harhis

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“Very rarely do freak injuries occur.”

Huh?

I’d bet that the majority of injuries occur in a chance moment.

Goalies suffer pulls & tears making saves at all points of the season & whether they play frequently or sparingly. Quick suffered a groin pull in the opening game in 2016.

All those acting like it’s a “fact” that Elliott’s injury was the result of Hakstol overusing him are talking out of their asses. It’s pure conjecture. Is it possible he was worn down & that caused the injury? I guess. But it’s just as possible he suffered it making a reflex save attempt & that his workload had nothing to do with it.
I've read really really stupid things here at HFboards. This is one of them.
 
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Jray42

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“Very rarely do freak injuries occur.”

Huh?

I’d bet that the majority of injuries occur in a chance moment.

Goalies suffer pulls & tears making saves at all points of the season & whether they play frequently or sparingly. Quick suffered a groin pull in the opening game in 2016.

All those acting like it’s a “fact” that Elliott’s injury was the result of Hakstol overusing him are talking out of their asses. It’s pure conjecture. Is it possible he was worn down & that caused the injury? I guess. But it’s just as possible he suffered it making a reflex save attempt & that his workload had nothing to do with it.
Oh come on man, I haven’t been following this discussion/debate at all but this post is complete nonsense.
 

Curufinwe

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In 17-18...

Elliott experienced a pretty major injury after playing a lot.

Neuvirth suffered multiple minor injuries after barely playing at all.

Stolarz had a major injury reoccur while getting out of his car.
 
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