Dave Hakstol

[LegionOfDoom91]

Considering Hagg was scratched for that Boston game, that was the worst possible 5 man group he could have put out on the ice. It's comical. He couldn't even stagger the bench enough to get Giroux or Couturier on the ice. But hey, all that experience- 37 combined seasons of NHL experience on the ice at once. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[flyersfan187]

Most head coaches have their faults and the way he plays worse players over better players way too often is a bad thing. With that being said, I still think the main problem is the PK strategy. Whether that is the strategy Hakstol or Lappy put in place in another story.

 

[Rebels57]

Round and round we go, when will everyone put him on ignore, nobody knows.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I'm shocked.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Well, the Avs did make the playoffs so that is factually wrong from the get-go.

To the rest of your rambling, lol. I'm the one that is full of **** for analyzing our complete goalie tandem, half of our forwards, and our top two D. So, apparently covering our tandem isn't fair, but just analyzing Elliott is (as you were doing) because it fits your narrative better? Except you then go on to claim I should be looking at Mrazek, a trade deadline pickup that wasn't part of our regular goalie tandem, and Lyon too. Let me guess, that would also be fine because it would lower the team save percentage and further your narrative? So, basically, anything is okay so long as it makes your point look better.

Neuvirth played over 25% of this teams games and he would have played closer to half of them if he did not have injury issues. Considering those facts and that he is signed to be the second half of our goalie tandem I do not see how it's unfair to include him. Even if you want to erase him because it furthers your narrative, our goaltending was still better than Pittsburgh and .001 better than Edmonton and NYI despite being much more productive offensively. Personally, when the team's backup is posting a .915 in over a quarter of our games and the two teams you cited have trash backing up trash, I think it is a relevant data point to present.

You also go on to ascribe a 117 point difference in offensive production to Hakstol despite the original point of yours being that the team was equally talented to a bunch of non playoff teams and are what held Hakstol back. You then go on to say Edmonton and NYI, I go on to show direct comparisons proving neither were anywhere near us in talent, and then you backpedal and say Hakstol elevated us to that 117 point difference.

You're so absurd that it cannot be properly explained in words. Thus far all you have done is completely avoid a question that has been asked to you ad nauseum by Beef, me, and Striiker, make a blatantly false claim and then proceed to backpedal into a circular argument when it is shown as such, and, quite poetically, you end it by saying something factually incorrect (the Avs missing the playoffs).

I'm just done with you. I'm not even the one making the bogus claim here, you are. I took the time to compare the first two teams you mentioned then you mention 8 more teams, one of which is wrong, without taking the time to show the proof yourself. Me and Striiker both put in more work than you have in any of your posts.

I'm just gonna leave this convo. For some reason I thought you might be a reasonable person, but I was wrong and it is a point of mine to just leave the baiting from internet people alone. By the way, feel free to answer the question Beef has asked you directly about a 1000 times.

And you accuse me of “rambling?”

Your attempts to discard Mrazek & Lyon are laughable & disingenuous.

Did the Flyers not have their two top goalies both go down at a crucial point of the season? Is that not a very difficult situation for any team to encounter, especially when the replacement (Mrazek) puts up something like an .887 save percentage (forgive me if that’s slightly off).

You accuse me, oddly, of focusing only on Elliott. I’m not focusing on any goalie — I’m citing the team’s overall save percentage over the regular season & comparing it to other teams’ save percentages over the course of the regular season. Doesn’t that seem fairer than ignoring a month where both top goalies were injured & they had to deal with horrible replacements?

As for the Avs, yeah, they made it. I acknowledged I forgot that. Congrats. Maybe you forgot Mrazek & Lyon were the Flyers’ top 2 goalies during a significant stretch of the season.

And, no, I didn’t ascribe the entirety of a 117 point difference to Hakstol (weak stat, though; how about citing EDM scored 161 5 on 5 goals vs. the Flyers’ 157?) I just said maybe his decisions played a part in the difference (like moving Giroux to wing & making Couturier 1C).

You accuse me of being unreasonable when you’re the one with the extreme view. All I’m saying is I don’t think Hakstol is horrible, & you can’t handle it. To the point you even doctor the team’s goaltending stats in an effort to erase any shreds of credit. Sue me for thinking that a lot of teams missed the playoffs who were in the same tier as the Flyers from a depth perspective.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Let's not forget that the reason Lyon and Mrazek had to play games down the stretch, may or may not have been because Hakstol doesn't know how to manage his goalies and may or may not have ran Elliott into the ground.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Let's not forget that the reason Lyon and Mrazek had to play games down the stretch, may or may not have been because Hakstol doesn't know how to manage his goalies and may or may not have ran Elliott into the ground.

And he's done this every year he's been coach.


If one has problems with our save percentage and points to it as absolving Hak, remember that it's an issue he did his utmost to aggravate.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Our goalies are what they are. Backup goaltenders for various reasons. I dont think the goalie issues lately are not all on the coaching staff. As much as I dont like this staff, putting most of the blame on them is not accurate IMO

 

[Beef Invictus]

Our goalies are what they are. Backup goaltenders for various reasons. I dont think the goalie issues lately are not all on the coaching staff. As much as I dont like this staff, putting most of the blame on them is not accurate IMO

Nobody has ever claimed the goalies are good, but playing Elliott as if he's Luongo in his prime and then doing the same with Neuvirth after Elliott inevitably breaks is inexcusable and makes a hard situation far, far harder.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Nobody has ever claimed the goalies are good, but playing Elliott as if he's Luongo in his prime and then doing the same with Neuvirth after Elliott inevitably breaks is inexcusable and makes a hard situation far, far harder.

Not going to deny his player management sucks. I have said many times I would of canned the entire staff after the 16-17 season

 

[Ghosts Beer]

There’s zero evidence that Hakstol caused Elliott’s injury.

Goalies get hurt. Months ago I cited multiple examples of other goalies suffering similar injuries regardless of workload. The “Hakstol injured Elliott” narrative is nothing but conjecture based on no medical evidence by people who already have an axe to grind with the coach. God only knows how Curtis Joseph managed 10 seasons of 60+ games (3 over 70) without falling apart.

 

[Beef Invictus]

There’s zero evidence that Hakstol caused Elliott’s injury.

Goalies get hurt. Months ago I cited multiple examples of other goalies suffering similar injuries regardless of workload. The “Hakstol injured Elliott” narrative is nothing but conjecture based on no medical evidence by people who already have an axe to grind with the coach. God only knows how Curtis Joseph managed 10 seasons of 60+ games (3 over 70) without falling apart.

You're really going to dismiss that playing Elliott at a pace for a career high in games, a pace he hasn't faced in years, while he is 32 and getting older, did not elevate his chance of injury?


You can claim that you aren't a diehard Hakstol supporter, but frankly you really go to absurd lengths to defend every single thing he does. How many times does he need to play an older or injury prone goalie endlessly at an absurd pace they aren't used to, until they get injured, before you begin connecting the dots?


Can you name any other coaches who give average goalies such usage where those goalies don't get injured? How many teams have had more goalie injuries?

 

[Branko]

I think my avatar says everything that needs to be said about David Hakstol.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Goaltending even with Mrazek and Lyon was fine 5v5. It was the PK that did them in once again. They had the worst PK SV% by a long shot. Three years running now with the Hak+Lappy combo.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Most head coaches have their faults and the way he plays worse players over better players way too often is a bad thing. With that being said, I still think the main problem is the PK strategy. Whether that is the strategy Hakstol or Lappy put in place in another story.

I'd say it's on hexys head at this point, but our pk improved in last 20 games so we are just about to turn the corner, yaddi yaddi yadda

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You're really going to dismiss that playing Elliott at a pace for a career high in games, a pace he hasn't faced in years, while he is 32 and getting older, did not elevate his chance of injury?


You can claim that you aren't a diehard Hakstol supporter, but frankly you really go to absurd lengths to defend every single thing he does. How many times does he need to play an older or injury prone goalie endlessly at an absurd pace they aren't used to, until they get injured, before you begin connecting the dots?


Can you name any other coaches who give average goalies such usage where those goalies don't get injured? How many teams have had more goalie injuries?

I’m not a medical expert. I assume you aren’t, either. There’s a reason medical testimony is barred from courtrooms unless supplied by a witness the court accepts as a medical expert.

Hockey players get hurt. Plenty of goalies pull/tear muscles making an individual save regardless of workload. Saying that Elliott’s workload made him more susceptible to a muscle pull seems like pure speculation. Should Hakstol stop playing his forwards & defensemen when they’re healthy to “protect” them from injury?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You can claim that you aren't a diehard Hakstol supporter, but frankly you really go to absurd lengths to defend every single thing he does.

In this thread, I’ve pointed out that there’s no medical evidence supporting the theory that Hakstol caused Elliott’s injury; pointed out that Hakstol didn’t directly send out that 5-man unit for the late defensive zone draw in the Boston game, as it followed an icing (and acknowledged Simmonds should never have been on the ice to begin with); and pointed out that only Pittsburgh had a worse team save percentage than the Flyers among the 12 teams that finished with as many points or more in the standings. I’ve also contended that the Flyers made the playoffs whereas other teams of roughly a similar talent level did not. I fail to see how any of this is going to “absurd lengths” to defend Hakstol.

 

[Beef Invictus]

In this thread, I’ve pointed out that there’s no medical evidence supporting the theory that Hakstol caused Elliott’s injury; pointed out that Hakstol didn’t directly send out that 5-man unit for the late defensive zone draw in the Boston game, as it followed an icing (and acknowledged Simmonds should never have been on the ice to begin with); and pointed out that only Pittsburgh had a worse team save percentage than the Flyers among the 12 teams that finished with as many points or more in the standings. I’ve also contended that the Flyers made the playoffs whereas other teams of roughly a similar talent level did not. I fail to see how any of this is going to “absurd lengths” to defend Hakstol.

Yes yes, I know that you refuse to believe it is possible for older and injury prone humans to wear down from overwork. Never mind that IS medically known, what with it actually happening. Recovery is a thing. The less recovery you give a human, the more you maximize the chance they get hurt. These are basic facts that are widely known, and are accounted for by any respectable coach or trainer.


You are having to say embarrassing things to absolve Hakstol of as much blame as you can. As someone else mentioned, it's just like the Bryz supporters who only managed to blame him for 1 or 2 goals against in his whole tenure here.

 

[kudymen]

Why did I think opening this thread while on vacation was a good idea.

f*** it
f*** IT in capital letters

 

[FLYguy3911]

And let's stop acting like making the playoffs, in a league where more than half the league qualifies, is some major accomplishment. They needed to get points on the last day of the season to make it...and proceeded to have a -13 goal differential in their lone series.

 

[freakydallas13]

How both Lappy and Hak have kept their jobs through 3 years of absolutely terrible PK numbers is beyond me. They keep changing the personnel and the results keep getting worse.

 

[freakydallas13]

And let's stop acting like making the playoffs, in a league where more than half the league qualifies, is some major accomplishment. They needed to get points on the last day of the season to make it...and proceeded to have a -13 goal differential in their lone series.

Don't even get me started on Hak's approach to coaching against the penguins. Watching them put up 5+ every time against us in the regular season is enough to make me tear my hair out.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Yes yes, I know that you refuse to believe it is possible for older and injury prone humans to wear down from overwork. Never mind that IS medically known, what with it actually happening. Recovery is a thing. The less recovery you give a human, the more you maximize the chance they get hurt. These are basic facts that are widely known, and are accounted for by any respectable coach or trainer.


You are having to say embarrassing things to absolve Hakstol of as much blame as you can. As someone else mentioned, it's just like the Bryz supporters who only managed to blame him for 1 or 2 goals against in his whole tenure here.

And you seemingly refuse to believe that a goaltender can suffer a core muscle injury independent of workload.

Crazy how Jonathan Quick pulled his groin during the first game of the 2016 season. Crazy how backups still get hurt despite all the rest.

Should Hakstol bench his forwards & defensemen to “protect” them from a injury? You’re paid to play. If you play hockey, you risk getting hurt. Blaming Elliott’s injury on Hakstol is nothing but conjecture from people who like thinking Hakstol is the anti King Midas.

 

[Beef Invictus]

And you seemingly refuse to believe that a goaltender can suffer a core muscle injury independent of workload.

Crazy how Jonathan Quick pulled his groin during the first game of the 2016 season. Crazy how backups still get hurt despite all the rest.

Should Hakstol bench his forwards & defensemen to “protect” them from a injury? You’re paid to play. If you play hockey, you risk getting hurt. Blaming Elliott’s injury on Hakstol is nothing but conjecture from people who like thinking Hakstol is the anti King Midas.

Quick isn't really comparable, is he? That's a fluke injury, not the result of being steadily worn down while playing a schedule his body was not used to handling.

You're ignoring the facts, because they are inconvenient to you: Elliott was being played at a 70-80 game rate, which he was absolutely not used to, and he was injured. Then he played Neuvirth at the same rate, and he became injured. Goaltender is a really demanding position, you know. You don't get breaks like skaters do. You can still take contact, and you make more dramatic motions that aren't efficient and push the body farther than skaters typically do. It is downright likely neither goalie breaks down as much or as severely if they aren't asked to play back-to-backs or get huge strings of starts everyone knows they can't handle.

But sure, you go ahead and ignore a pattern that Hakstol has repeated, with the same results on both goalies. It only reveals the unreasonable lengths you'll go to defend bad coaching.

 

[Magua]

Why did I think opening this thread while on vacation was a good idea.

**** it
**** IT in capital letters

Shut up and eat your beef stick.