Dave Hakstol

[Ghosts Beer]

Point is he had arguably the worst five man unit, out of every possible combination, out and at the end of a close game to boot. There is no defending that whatsoever. Does not matter who ends up at fault specifically on the play, there is no smart coach out there that actively chooses to have his five worst player combination out, at least in terms of defense, on the ice at any point in the game let alone at the end of a close one. If it were an erroneous deployment in isolation it could be assume a to be a mistake, but we regularly see do similar things.

Such as arbitrarily playing goalies in back-to-back starts consistently whenever they win the former half of it. Or giving Lehtera an average of 33 seconds of PP time last year. That's 33 seconds more than it should be. That's just an average too, which means there's games where it is way more than that. Just scanning through the season log, I see one game where he logged 3+, one where he logged 2+, and a four out of five game stretch where he logged over 1 minute per.

Tell me, please, what good coach chooses to have his five worst defensive players out at the closing seconds of a one-goal game, gives Jori Lethera PP and PK time, or consistently plays his goalies in B2B starts? There is no reasonable defense of it.

Did you read my post? I conceded that Hakstol shouldn’t have had Simmonds on the ice in the last two minutes.

My only point was that there are people insinuating that Hakstol actively put that unit on the ice for the defensive zone draw. And that’s flat out incorrect. It was after an icing. I have no issue arguing Simmonds shouldn’t have touched the ice to begin with, but at least frame the argument correctly.

 

[deadhead]

You know injuries aren't permanent, right?

You're deliberately missing the point, the 2017-18 Flyers did not have a lot of talent, contrary to unsubstantiated opinion.
Simmonds hasn't been a top 6 forward since 2015-16. And probably never will be again.

So yes, 4 top 6 forwards, only 1 close to elite status, 2 marginal 1st line defensemen (neither Ghost or Provorov are in the same class as say Doughty right now), neither goalie considered starter caliber.

Facts is facts, 2017-18 Flyers were not a very talented team, every team, even the bad ones, have a few good players.
Top teams have a lot of good players and a few great ones.

 

[VladDrag]

I'm not sure I see the parallel, but as far as Couturier is concerned he played with Giroux and Konecny largely. I can't think of any center in the league who would have had a better set of wingers flanking him off-hand (I'm sure there are some comparables, none that spring to mind immediately). Especially considering that Couturier is best on offense when he's driving the net and the play as opposed to playmaking or creating openings, which are what Konecny and Giroux excel at.

Personally, I also see Couturier's output last year as a bit of an aberration, I wouldn't expect him to have a season like that again ever honestly. He shot a career-high shooting percentage, over 3% above his career average, Giroux is only going to get older, it's going to be hard to ever beat winger setup of Giroux-Konecny, and Giroux himself has some advanced stats that would indicate that his season was a bit of an anomaly as well.

Note, I'm not disparaging any player here.

(Could be late here...but)

I dont expect Couts to be a near ppg player, but just a few things to add.

His shooting % and assists would expect to go up based on playing with better linemates. He still scores 24 goals based on his career shooting %, based on shots taken. He also took a lot more shots, attempted 100 more than any other season.

I think 70 is a stretch to hit again, it 55-65 is my expectations, basically agreeing with you.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You're deliberately missing the point, the 2017-18 Flyers did not have a lot of talent, contrary to unsubstantiated opinion.
Simmonds hasn't been a top 6 forward since 2015-16. And probably never will be again.

So yes, 4 top 6 forwards, only 1 close to elite status, 2 marginal 1st line defensemen (neither Ghost or Provorov are in the same class as say Doughty right now), neither goalie considered starter caliber.

Facts is facts, 2017-18 Flyers were not a very talented team, every team, even the bad ones, have a few good players.
Top teams have a lot of good players and a few great ones.

We had plenty of talent. Enough to force the playoffs despite bad coaching from Berube, and we had enough to make the playoffs despite bad coaching from Hakstol.


Do you think playing bad players in crucial situations instead of good players I'd good coaching?

It's really telling that you refuse to answer. You clearly think admitting Hakstol is fallible is some slippery slope.

 

[deadhead]

We did not have plenty of talent.
Six players who were top 6/top 4 isn't plenty of talent.
And our bottom 6/3rd pair players were average to below average for that role as a group.
And our goalies were bottom third as a group.

Hextall dumped the veteran defensemen, traded Schenn, accumulated draft picks, made no significant FA signings for four years.
Read faded away, Simmonds slipped, Raffl declined.
It's not surprising the talent level fell below average.

As the kids arrive and mature as players, the talent level should steadily increase over the next 4-5 years.
And signing JVR provides another top six forward.
Toronto had far more talent than the Flyers last year, for example.

 

[Striiker]

We had plenty of talent. Enough to force the playoffs despite bad coaching from Berube, and we had enough to make the playoffs despite bad coaching from Hakstol.


Do you think playing bad players in crucial situations instead of good players I'd good coaching?

It's really telling that you refuse to answer. You clearly think admitting Hakstol is fallible is some slippery slope.

Weird that the Flyers problem was a "lack of talent" when their top scorers outperformed the cup champs top scorers. Guess Hakstol can't blame the amount of talent he was given after all.

Giroux - 102	Ovi - 87
Voracek - 85	Kuznetsov - 83
Couturier - 76	Backstrom - 71
Konecny - 47 (despite being horribly underused)	Oshie - 47
Simmonds - 41	Eller - 38
Filppula (would easily be Patrick if used properly) - 33	Wilson - 35
Ghost - 65	Carlson - 68
Provorov - 41	Orlov - 31
Total for Flyers top 6 scoring forwards - 384	Total for Capitals top 6 scoring forwards - 361
Total for Flyers top 2 scoring defensemen - 106	Total for Capitals top 2 scoring defensemen - 99

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

And overall, the Caps scored a grand total of 7 more goals last year (thanks to not having a Hakstol-like figure forcing horrible players in huge roles). The Flyers would have easily outscored them for the year if Hakstol doesn't make a few indefensible mistakes.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Washington had more depth up and down the lineup than the Flyers. The GF and GA were close sure. But the Caps had so many ways to beat you.
the top line, Ghost and Provorov dragged this team to the playoffs.

 

[Beef Invictus]

We did not have plenty of talent.
Six players who were top 6/top 4 isn't plenty of talent.
And our bottom 6/3rd pair players were average to below average for that role as a group.
And our goalies were bottom third as a group.

Hextall dumped the veteran defensemen, traded Schenn, accumulated draft picks, made no significant FA signings for four years.
Read faded away, Simmonds slipped, Raffl declined.
It's not surprising the talent level fell below average.

As the kids arrive and mature as players, the talent level should steadily increase over the next 4-5 years.
And signing JVR provides another top six forward.
Toronto had far more talent than the Flyers last year, for example.

We had enough talent to drag the team to the playoffs despite terrible coaching.


Do you think it is good coaching to split up one of the best top lines in the game for no reason going into the playoffs, neutering it when needed the most? Good coaching, yes or no. Very easy and simple question.

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

What a ****ing lineup out there from Hakstok.

Really the who’s who of paste eaters out there.

 

[Striiker]

Washington had more depth up and down the lineup than the Flyers. The GF and GA were close sure. But the Caps had so many ways to beat you.
the top line, Ghost and Provorov dragged this team to the playoffs.

Right, so our problem was lack of depth, not talent.

It's not like their depth guys were stars, it's just that our depth guys (Lehtera, Weise, Leier) were useless, even for depth guys.

Plus, we had more talent available than was used. Guys like Patrick, TK, and Sanheim all could have easily added to our total offense if they weren't so horribly underused. Hakstol chose to suppress the talent, so it's funny seeing a "lack of talent" being used as a defense for him.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Caps got legit lucky. Panarin almost singlehandedly beat them in first round lol. Their top players were doing the best they could, but it was Stamkos, Kucherov, Hedman and MAF who were true MVPs of their cup run.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Caps got legit lucky. Panarin almost singlehandedly beat them in first round lol. Their top players were doing the best they could, but it was Stamkos, Kucherov, Hedman and MAF who were true MVPs of their cup run.

You forgot Tom Wilson, his contract tells you that.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

A bunch of teams missed the playoffs with roughly equal talent & depth to the Flyers. They also were 22/31 in save percentage & still made it.

No, I don’t think Hakstol is a genius coach. But because I take a middle ground on him, I’m labeled a Hakstol apologist. I just think he isn’t as bad as he gets painted.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Did you read my post? I conceded that Hakstol shouldn’t have had Simmonds on the ice in the last two minutes.

My only point was that there are people insinuating that Hakstol actively put that unit on the ice for the defensive zone draw. And that’s flat out incorrect. It was after an icing. I have no issue arguing Simmonds shouldn’t have touched the ice to begin with, but at least frame the argument correctly.

Oh, I read it, but apparently you didn’t read mine.

You refuse to call Hakstol out as a bad coach and, even in this isolated incident, you feel the need to give an excuse for him. As I said, there is no defense for that whatsoever. It is one of the worst singular coaching calls I have ever witnessed regardless of what his intentions were.

Don’t know why you cannot just say he’s a bad coach or even rip on him for a single awful decision. Without adding in whatever caveats you can fathom in his defense.

It really is as simple as Beef says and apparently you must not be reading his posts either. Is it bad coaching to put your worst players on the ice to close a one goal game?

 

[Garbage Goal]

A bunch of teams missed the playoffs with roughly equal talent & depth to the Flyers. They also were 22/31 in save percentage & still made it.

No, I don’t think Hakstol is a genius coach. But because I take a middle ground on him, I’m labeled a Hakstol apologist. I just think he isn’t as bad as he gets painted.

We had the Art Ross runner-up, like half our roster posting career years, a D close to PPG, one of the best top lines and top pairings in the league, and a rookie D who lead all D in ES goals. How in the world did a bunch of non playoff teams have that amount of talent? Point them out, please. Striiker literally just illustrated that the top half of our roster, in terms of usage, actually outproduced the Cup champs. Do the same comparison with non playoff teams.

This is all off the top of my head. This is also ignoring that one of the chief complaints is that Hakstol routinely under utilized key players. Or that another common criticism is that he is awful at handling a goalie rotation.

 

[deadhead]

Half of our roster posting career years? Huh? Voracek's career years were 2011-12 and 2012-13.
Couts had a career year in points, but the same metrics as the previous two seasons. Just better linemates - but putting 3 of your 4 best scorers on the 1st line meant they rolled three mediocre lines.
Giroux rebounded to his 2010-12 play.
TK, Provorov and Ghost haven't had long enough careers to have a "career year."
Who else?

That D that was close to a PPG was driven by scoring by Manning, MacDonald and Gudas - now that's coaching!
What rookie D? Provorv was a 2nd year player, Ghost 3rd year - the two rookie D-man were 6th and 7th on the team in pp/60.

While player point totals were inflated by being on PP1, we probably had the worst PP2 in the league.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Half of our roster posting career years? Huh? Voracek's career years were 2011-12 and 2012-13.
Couts had a career year in points, but the same metrics as the previous two seasons. Just better linemates - but putting 3 of your 4 best scorers on the 1st line meant they rolled three mediocre lines.
Giroux rebounded to his 2010-12 play.
TK, Provorov and Ghost haven't had long enough careers to have a "career year."
Who else?

That D that was close to a PPG was driven by scoring by Manning, MacDonald and Gudas - now that's coaching!
What rookie D? Provorv was a 2nd year player, Ghost 3rd year - the two rookie D-man were 6th and 7th on the team in pp/60.

While player point totals were inflated by being on PP1, we probably had the worst PP2 in the league.

This is absurd nitpicking.


I have a simple question for you. Is it good coaching to play bad players when you have better players available?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Oh, I read it, but apparently you didn’t read mine.

You refuse to call Hakstol out as a bad coach and, even in this isolated incident, you feel the need to give an excuse for him. As I said, there is no defense for that whatsoever. It is one of the worst singular coaching calls I have ever witnessed regardless of what his intentions were.

Don’t know why you cannot just say he’s a bad coach or even rip on him for a single awful decision. Without adding in whatever caveats you can fathom in his defense.

It really is as simple as Beef says and apparently you must not be reading his posts either. Is it bad coaching to put your worst players on the ice to close a one goal game?

How many times do you want me to say I agree Hakstol shouldn’t have had Simmonds on the ice in the last two minutes?

You’re acting like I’m defending him for that when I’m not. All I am saying is that there are some people who are acting like Hakstol actively sent out that unit for the D zone draw & that is false.

It’s interesting how much vitriol taking a middle ground on Hakstol draws. I don’t think he’s great. I don’t think he’s horrible or an idiot.

He had a mediocre team. Finished tied for 12th in the league. And the only team above them with worse goaltending was Pittsburgh. They were .903, Pitt was .902, next closest were two teams at .909.

Maybe Hakstol does some dumb things (all coaches do) but he has some positive attributes, too?

Edmonton missed the playoffs. They had the league’s top scorer in McDavid, nearly identical (bad) goaltending to the Flyers, & 6 top 5 overall draft picks. The Flyers were way better than the NYI, & they had Tavares, Barzal, Lee (40 goals), Bailey (71 pts), Eberle, & Leddy.

And wasn’t Hakstol the reason Giroux got moved to Couturier’s wing, resulting in two career seasons?

Maybe Hakstol isn’t bad at everything.

 

[Amorgus]

STOP SHITTING ON VANILLA!!! It's not poor delicious vanilla's fault it's overused! Hak is coaching saltines.

 

[hatcher]

Weird that the Flyers problem was a "lack of talent" when their top scorers outperformed the cup champs top scorers. Guess Hakstol can't blame the amount of talent he was given after all.

Giroux - 102	Ovi - 87
Voracek - 85	Kuznetsov - 83
Couturier - 76	Backstrom - 71
Konecny - 47 (despite being horribly underused)	Oshie - 47
Simmonds - 41	Eller - 38
Filppula (would easily be Patrick if used properly) - 33	Wilson - 35
Ghost - 65	Carlson - 68
Provorov - 41	Orlov - 31
Total for Flyers top 6 scoring forwards - 384	Total for Capitals top 6 scoring forwards - 361
Total for Flyers top 2 scoring defensemen - 106	Total for Capitals top 2 scoring defensemen - 99

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

And overall, the Caps scored a grand total of 7 more goals last year (thanks to not having a Hakstol-like figure forcing horrible players in huge roles). The Flyers would have easily outscored them for the year if Hakstol doesn't make a few indefensible mistakes.

And yet not one player on the left is as good as the right players. Points dont mean shit as its a team game and playing solid two way hockey which we dont get at all.

 

[Striiker]

And yet not one player on the left is as good as the right players. Points dont mean **** as its a team game and playing solid two way hockey which we dont get at all.

Incorrect.

Saying points don't matter is about as incorrect of a sentence as is possible to create. It's literally the entire point of hockey.

Stop trolling.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Yeah, points, those things that win your game by outscoring the other team with, don't mean shit.

 

[FlyTimmo]

Stop trolling.

That would be the only thing he knows how to do

 

[deadhead]

Yeah, points, those things that win your game by outscoring the other team, don't mean ****.

Outscoring, not scoring is what matters.
You get two points for winning 2-1 or 5-4.

 

[Striiker]

Yeah, points, those things that win your game by outscoring the other team, don't mean ****.

Yup.

Every single second of the game is spent either trying to do the entire objective of hockey or preventing the opponent from doing the entire objective of hockey.

There is no situation where a goal is a bad thing. Never. None. End of story. Scoring points is the most important thing a skater can do, full stop.

The fact that anyone would try to say differently blows my mind.