Dave Hakstol Part V

[Rebels57]

Let's be honest, healthy Lindros in his prime >>> Clarke in his prime. Maybe there are 5 guys in hockey history you'd take over him, but maybe not.

You're underrating Clarke a bit here. He was not only a lethal scorer, but also a Selke winner. Lindros' offensive package is probably top 3 all-time though.

 

[baudib1]

You're underrating Clarke a bit here. He was not only a lethal scorer, but also a Selke winner. Lindros' offensive package is probably top 3 all-time though.

Clarke was obviously a great great player, but he's the type that has been seen before and since. Two-way center and great leader - there are comparable guys with long careers just like him -- Yzerman, Gilmour, Trottier, etc.

Lindros' skills are pitched somewhere between Gordie Howe and Mario Lemieux.

The dude rag-dolled the guy who was considered the previous best combo of skill/toughness -- Mark Messier -- in two playoff series.

 

[deadhead]

Let's be honest, healthy Lindros in his prime >>> Clarke in his prime. Maybe there are 5 guys in hockey history you'd take over him, but maybe not.

Clarke won the Hart Trophy 3 of 4 years in his prime. Came in 2nd, and 4th and 6th twice.
Now you can denigrate +/- , but Clarke put up a +79 and +83, that's just plain ridiculous.
He's 5th all time in career +/-, +507, behind Larry Robinson, Bobby Orr, Ray Bourque and Wayne Gretzky.
Now he played on some good teams, but his first three years, like Lindros, were on bad teams.
Lindros has a career +/- of +215.

Lindros was physically more talented as were a lot of players over the decades, but Clarke had the highest "intangibles" of any player in NHL history.
Someone that small, that slow should never have sniffed the HOF, but Clarke simply refused to lose. I saw him tie or win games on the last faceoff of games. Incredible, only player I've seen with a similar will to win was MJ.
Clarke was the same size as Giroux, but Giroux, as good as he is as a player and a captain, has never been in the same league with Clarke.

PS: He was also a diabetic, back when management of that condition was more primitive, and used to shoot up in between periods. That's just freakin' nuts.

 

[deadhead]

Giroux was not as good in 2017-18 as he was in his prime.
From 2010-12 he played 44 PO games, 19-31 50
In 2010-11 he played 21:53, in 2011-12 22:43
He was the straw that stirred the drink, carrying lesser talents on his wings.

Last year he benefited from Couts at center taking the defensive burden off his shoulders, and Voracek/TK at RW.
Playing with Couts should extend his peak years, because he's even said he has to skate less at LW.

 

[Embiid]

I'd rather have the guy with the bad dance moves with the Cup over his head

rather than the guy smelling his own flatulence.

I think Hak snorts cocaine.....he is always sniffling.

 

[Tripod]

I think Hak snorts cocaine.....he is always sniffling.

Maybe that's why he likes Lehtera....

 

[Striiker]

Im just gonna put this out there, and it will likely be ignored and that’s probably for the best but here goes:

I tend to agree w the “Hivemind” on here w most things. But Deadhead is villainized pretty dramatically on here. A lot of his points are valid and/or reasonable.

Yeah, I can't believe people don't respond well to lying and dishonesty.

 

[flyersfan187]

Hand Quenneville a blank check now and let him pick out his ideal lineup from the Flyers.

 

[mdm815]

Yeah, I can't believe people don't respond well to lying and dishonesty.

I guess that’s my point. He doesn’t lie or say things that are dishonest, he says things that aren’t popular. Sometimes they are hard truths, and sometimes they are located out in left field. For every crazy point he makes he tends to even it out w at least one good point, and that’s a higher batting avg than most posters on HF.

What bugs me about it, especially as a lurker, is he at least opens a forum for discussion that usually gets immediately shot down. Which is a shame bc discussion is a nice change of pace from the usual repetition of the daily topic and cookie cutter responses.

 

[Embiid]

Fire Hakstol!

 

[Foggy14]

Scary, indeed.

Here are a few Flyer metrics during Hakstol's tenure (261 regular season games) that caught my eye.

On the PK

- We rank 30th in PK% at 78.1%. Only Ottawa has been worse. That's no surprise, but it's still painful to see that we've been that bad, for that long.

- We're worst in the League in shorthanded goals scored. We have 10 in 3+ seasons. Vegas has equaled that in their brief time in the League.

- In our limited number of playoff games under Hak we didn't fare any better while shorthanded. Our playoff penalty kill percentage under Hak is 75%.

On the PP

- On its face, our 5th place ranking in PP goals scored looks good, and it has helped offset even strength scoring that ranks a disappointing 20th. But there's a disturbing element beneath the surface.

- We've had the second most PP opportunities in the League during Hak's time and our PP% is actually a pretty mediocre 18th in the League. In short, we've been underperforming on the power play. We've left a lot of goals on the "table."

- In the playoffs, our PP% under Hak has been an awful 6.7%, second worst in the League.

In Overtime

- We're tied for 3rd worst in the number of OT losses.

- We are the League's worst in shootout games lost.

But We're Improving, Right?

- To be fair to Hak, if you just look at last season and the early portion of this year, some of these numbers have improved. An improvement in even strength goals (to 7th overall) contributed a lot to making the playoffs last season.

- But our PP% ranking was actually a bit worse at #19.

- And, astoundingly, the PK% was worse at a horrendous 74.2%, the worst in the League.

- We continue to be the worst team in the League in scoring shorthanded goals.

- We are third worst in giving up shorties.

- Shootout losses? Second worst.

- Overtime losses? Tied for second worst.

So, What's Your Point?

Just about all the metrics listed above are special teams situations that are highly influenced by coaching. The Flyers' metrics in these areas are mediocre, at best. Most are very poor, and they've been poor for quite some time.

Could the Flyers' personnel be better? Sure. Hopefully, they will be in a couple of years. But this isn't a bad team. We have some excellent players.

Unfortunately, it's an underachieving team and the head coach and staff need to be held accountable for that.

 

[captainpaxil]

Go look at the team again, who is even in the NHL?
2014-15 Flyers:
Voracek (29)
Giroux (31)
Schenn (27)
Couts (26)
Simmonds (30)
Raffl (30)
Laughton (24)
Cousins (25)
Rinaldo (28)
PEB (33)
Read (32)

MDZ (28)
Coburn (33)
L Schenn (29)
MacDonald (32)
Manning (28)

In the pipeline: Ghost, Hagg, Morin, Leier

So, if Hextall had stayed the course, tried to patch this team into the playoffs (no cap room for a major acquisition until recently, and that only after dumping a bunch of players), what do you think their record would have been the last three seasons?

Dead i tend to agree with you alot but you really stuck your foot in your mouth on this one. 1 player on that team isn't currently an nhler. One player who was here until last season.

Im not going to get into a read v lehtera debate cuz frankly they're largely irrelevant. But it goes to show that the best players on that team are still the best players on this team.

Tk and gudas for Coburn took this long to pay off. Dealing schenn looks killer promising but thats for a time in the future. Both deals i put in the win column bur the payout requires patience.

So basically what im saying is while hextall has repeatedly stated the ngl is not a developmental league for his players it's absolutely not the attitude hes taken towards his coach.

Hak was a college coach and a successful one. His expertise is with young men. So having him coach a team like we had was sort of sheltering him the way you would a rookie player. Lets see how well what you did at the lower levels translates.

We're years in and haks player deployment still resembles andy reids time management. I get the sense hak is still going with his seniors when he says heavy veterans. I don't know that he hasn't recognised his own shortcomings.

Hell with joel q gimme John stevens and that old roster and i think i can take hak wirh this one despite inferior talent

 

[Garbage Goal]

I guess that’s my point. He doesn’t lie or say things that are dishonest, he says things that aren’t popular. Sometimes they are hard truths, and sometimes they are located out in left field. For every crazy point he makes he tends to even it out w at least one good point, and that’s a higher batting avg than most posters on HF.

What bugs me about it, especially as a lurker, is he at least opens a forum for discussion that usually gets immediately shot down. Which is a shame bc discussion is a nice change of pace from the usual repetition of the daily topic and cookie cutter responses.

If you were going back to before this last year where not everyone was on board with firing Hak, then maybe. He is wholly dishonest though. If you lurk then I don't know how you haven't seen people literally catching him lying by quoting a post from far back and showing it as completely contradicting a new stance he takes. He constantly shifts goal posts at all costs and deliberately avoids certain questions to ensure he has ground to argue from. You can tell he's a lawyer in real life because he literally does whatever it takes to make a basis for an argument even if it opposes something he previously said or ignores reality or ignores certain talking points. He's very articulate and knows how to form an argument, but so are lawyers. Doesn't mean they aren't full of shit though.

At this point, literally everything tells you this coach is awful and holding the team back. From the collection of team metrics that generally rank from middling to dead last in the league, data showing how awful our systems are, quotes, line/roster changes, vastly under-performing to preseason expectations as a team, performance on-ice or in the standings or in the playoffs, etc. You would literally have to be mentally handicapped or purposefully acting as a contrarian to not see all this.

 

[Striiker]

Nevermind.

Not bothering with this.

 

[deadhead]

Well, it's good to see we're favorites for the Hughes sweepstakes, since our lousy coach and bad GM have combined to give us the worst record in the league after four years of tanking, just following the blueprint set by Chicago and Winnipeg and the Kings.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Well, it's good to see we're favorites for the Hughes sweepstakes, since our lousy coach and bad GM have combined to give us the worst record in the league after four years of tanking, just following the blueprint set by Chicago and Winnipeg and the Kings.

 

[Rebels57]

Fire Hakstol!

The only comment that matters around these parts.

 

[Rebels57]

Scary, indeed.

Here are a few Flyer metrics during Hakstol's tenure (261 regular season games) that caught my eye.

On the PK

- We rank 30th in PK% at 78.1%. Only Ottawa has been worse. That's no surprise, but it's still painful to see that we've been that bad, for that long.

- We're worst in the League in shorthanded goals scored. We have 10 in 3+ seasons. Vegas has equaled that in their brief time in the League.

- In our limited number of playoff games under Hak we didn't fare any better while shorthanded. Our playoff penalty kill percentage under Hak is 75%.

On the PP

- On its face, our 5th place ranking in PP goals scored looks good, and it has helped offset even strength scoring that ranks a disappointing 20th. But there's a disturbing element beneath the surface.

- We've had the second most PP opportunities in the League during Hak's time and our PP% is actually a pretty mediocre 18th in the League. In short, we've been underperforming on the power play. We've left a lot of goals on the "table."

- In the playoffs, our PP% under Hak has been an awful 6.7%, second worst in the League.

In Overtime

- We're tied for 3rd worst in the number of OT losses.

- We are the League's worst in shootout games lost.

But We're Improving, Right?

- To be fair to Hak, if you just look at last season and the early portion of this year, some of these numbers have improved. An improvement in even strength goals (to 7th overall) contributed a lot to making the playoffs last season.

- But our PP% ranking was actually a bit worse at #19.

- And, astoundingly, the PK% was worse at a horrendous 74.2%, the worst in the League.

- We continue to be the worst team in the League in scoring shorthanded goals.

- We are third worst in giving up shorties.

- Shootout losses? Second worst.

- Overtime losses? Tied for second worst.

So, What's Your Point?

Just about all the metrics listed above are special teams situations that are highly influenced by coaching. The Flyers' metrics in these areas are mediocre, at best. Most are very poor, and they've been poor for quite some time.

Could the Flyers' personnel be better? Sure. Hopefully, they will be in a couple of years. But this isn't a bad team. We have some excellent players.

Unfortunately, it's an underachieving team and the head coach and staff need to be held accountable for that.

Outstanding post.



Coaching sucks donkey dick.

 

[flyersfan187]

The Flyers are too talented to get Hughes

 

[Beef Invictus]

The Caps are a lot less tight defensively this year yet with largely the same roster. I wonder if something changed that could impact how the entire roster plays? Hmm.

Really shoots down attempts to minimize the importance of coaching as a means of defending Hakstol.

 

[Striiker]

You’re forgetting that Hakstol has no choice.

 

[mdm815]

I’m on board the Fire Hak Train (along w the rest of the bench staff). And deadhead hasn’t exactly helped my case since i tried “defending” him so I’ll just bow out lol. It’s not a hill i want to make my stand on

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

I’m on board the Fire Hak Train (along w the rest of the bench staff). And deadhead hasn’t exactly helped my case since i tried “defending” him so I’ll just bow out lol. It’s not a hill i want to make my stand on

There's no reason to worry about head anyway - he can take care of himself. He wouldn't keep posting if he couldn't. He enjoys getting down in the muck with his opinions and arguing, and especially when he posts about the Pimp, he is actively trying to kill me via brain embolism.

 

[ybnvs]

... a lawyer in real life [...] literally does whatever it takes to make a basis for an argument even if it opposes something he previously said or ignores reality or ignores certain talking points. He's very articulate and knows how to form an argument, but so are lawyers. Doesn't mean they aren't full of **** though.

They say, "Gingers have no souls."
Nay, I say. Tis the lawyers who have no souls.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

In 1974/1975, Bobby Clarke was on the ice for only 22 ES goals against the entire season. (Vs 105 ES GF.)

That’s absurd.

Over the course of the 74/75 & 75/76 seasons, the Flyers outscored opponents by a 5:1 ratio with Clarke on the ice; a 1.5:1 ratio without him on the ice.

Unreal.