Datsyuk - Bergeron - Hossa vs Kariya - Kopitar - Guy Lafleur

[tarheelhockey]

If the goal is to predict a 7 game series, playoff achievements matter a hell of a lot more than 90pt+ regular seasons. Kariya playing most of his career on the expansion Ducks lags in that department, but Kopitar and Lafleur more than make up for it.

It’s also worth noting, Kariya only had two substantial playoff runs in his career. The first, during his prime, he had 13 points in 11 games. The only other one was the run to the Finals in which his overall production was disappointing, but he did have the legendary “off the floor, on the board” moment.

When we say Kariya’s playoff record is lacking, we’re really putting a ton of weight on his playing mostly on non-playoff teams. And his failure to score a few more points while falling *checks notes* one point short of the team lead while making it to Game 7 of the Finals.

 

[authentic]

Sure but why are people equating careers with a 7 games series that the OP presented?

this is how it breaks down for me.

Line 1 at their peak

- Datsyuk back to back 97 point seasons around 15 points away from the art Ross with Selke winning defense), great in the circle on faceoffs and a takeaway monster.

-Bergeron, elite in the faceoff circle and another takeaway monster who scored quite well i his peak later years and in peak playoff years he could be just under a PPG with that elite 2 way play.

-Hossa solid 90-100 point (adjusted) guy 4 years straight again another takeaway monster and very good 2 way player.

Second group led by Kopitar

- Kopitar elite on faceoffs and stacks up very well with Bergeron offensively and I'd say he is probably a little bit better but perhaps slightly behind Datsyuk at his peak offensively

Then we go to 2 excellent offensive wingers but definitely 5th and 6th in terms of 2 way play here and the gap is large.

-Lafleur, elite offensively at his peak just dynamic and the best pure offensive guy here and probably plays like he did with Lemaire which was excellent offesnviely.

Kariya is definitely the weak link here in terms of defensive play and has the weakest playoff resume both overall and peak/prime. Has killer speed at his peak and certainly could score but in a 7 game series he is probably 6th easily on this list.

He was also 15 points off the Art Ross playing 2 minutes less per game on the powerplay than the scoring leaders. The idea that he was a fringe top 10 player like one poster mentioned is insane to me, he was in conversations for best player at his peak and top 4 at worst.

 

[wetcoast]

If the goal is to predict a 7 game series, playoff achievements matter a hell of a lot more than 90pt+ regular seasons. Kariya playing most of his career on the expansion Ducks lags in that department, but Kopitar and Lafleur more than make up for it.

Sure but all 3 of the other guys were PPG 2 way monsters which is a consideration as those 3 and Kopitar are head and shoulders above the 2 wingers in terms of non offense impact.

 

[norrisnick]

Sure but all 3 of the other guys were PPG 2 way monsters which is a consideration as those 3 and Kopitar are head and shoulders above the 2 wingers in terms of non offense impact.

Not in the playoffs.

 

[wetcoast]

Not in the playoffs.

I'm on phone but I'm pretty sure all 3 guys have had playoffs were they were PPG+ to go along with elite 2 way play and it's not cherry picking if we are taking everyone's best or most consistent years in their primes.

Aside from Lafleur in the unbalanced high scoring dynasty 70s all of the other guys played in lower scoring playoff environments.

 

[wetcoast]

Not in the playoffs.

Actually over a 5 year stretch this is Datysuk

18-8-8-16
22-10-13-23
16-1-8-9
12-6-7-13
11-4-11-15

Bergeron in the 5 years he went double digits

13-4-7-11
23-6-14-20
22-9-6-15
11-6-10-16
24-9-8-17

Hossa 8 seasons double digit in points including

20-12-14-26


Some pretty good offense there considering how much they excel in the defensive side of things.

 

[norrisnick]

Actually over a 5 year stretch this is Datysuk

18-8-8-16
22-10-13-23
16-1-8-9
12-6-7-13
11-4-11-15

Bergeron in the 5 years he went double digits

13-4-7-11
23-6-14-20
22-9-6-15
11-6-10-16
24-9-8-17

Hossa 8 seasons double digit in points including

20-12-14-26


Some pretty good offense there considering how much they excel in the defensive side of things.

So, a not quite PPG run of seasons. A not quite PPG collection of playoffs. And the only PPG playoff (riding shotgun with Crosby) of Hossa's career.

 

[x Tame Impala]

So, a not quite PPG run of seasons. A not quite PPG collection of playoffs. And the only PPG playoff (riding shotgun with Crosby) of Hossa's career.

Sure we’ll just flatly compare the statline of players in the modern era in a 30 team league with players from Russia and Europe to Lafleur who played on a 70’s dynasty team in a 20 team league

 

[Zalos]

Kariya and Lafleur are on another level. So, I would have to go with their line.

People seem to forget that before his concussions, Kariya was compared to Gretzky. He was never able to reach his real peak.

 

[norrisnick]

Sure we’ll just flatly compare the statline of players in the modern era in a 30 team league with players from Russia and Europe to Lafleur who played on a 70’s dynasty team in a 20 team league

If you want, we can, ya.

However, even contextually, take that 5 year run of Datsyuk noted above. He wasn't the top playoff scorer or top defensive forward on his own team, let alone the league. Lafleur lapped the league, including all his dynasty teammates, in his 5 year run.

 

[wetcoast]

So, a not quite PPG run of seasons. A not quite PPG collection of playoffs. And the only PPG playoff (riding shotgun with Crosby) of Hossa's career.

Pretty much this,

Sure we’ll just flatly compare the statline of players in the modern era in a 30 team league with players from Russia and Europe to Lafleur who played on a 70’s dynasty team in a 20 team league

And if the 2 way trio gets the support of the 70's Habs teams then sure that's why I would take the first group as they have the added advantage of 2 elite shutdown centers.

Also the PPG threshold doesn't put into context playoff scoring in the different seasons.

For example in the 02-03 playoffs where Hossa had a 18-5-11-16 line a total of 10 players had a PPG and Hossa was 12th in that metric and 4th overall in points but let's just go to the weak well he had crosby that one year argument and gloss over the support Lafleur had eh.

01-02 Same thing Hossa was 22nd in PPG (.83) where 14 players had a PPG and another emasley assist would have had him tied for 15th just ahead of Joe sakic if one is inclined to name drop which I'm not as these aritary numbers don't mean very much.

But let's just look at a random year for Lafleur and playoff scoring.

76-77 20 players had a PPG

That seems close except that 4 of the playoff teams got eliminated in the first round which was a 3 game affair and I'm using 5 games as the filter to eliminate fluke short runs.

NHL Stats

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[norrisnick]

I'm already pushing for the group with Lafleur. No need to argue for his cause.

 

[authentic]

Kariya and Lafleur are on another level. So, I would have to go with their line.

People seem to forget that before his concussions, Kariya was compared to Gretzky. He was never able to reach his real peak.

Best case scenario he would’ve ended up close to Crosby who was also compared to Gretzky.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Liking Datsyuk (which I do, deeply) is not an excuse to underrate Guy Lafleur.

 

[Walkenthewalk]

Is this a six-man tag match? If so give me DBH, it's a handicap match without Guy.

 

[authentic]

Actually over a 5 year stretch this is Datysuk

18-8-8-16
22-10-13-23
16-1-8-9
12-6-7-13
11-4-11-15

Bergeron in the 5 years he went double digits

13-4-7-11
23-6-14-20
22-9-6-15
11-6-10-16
24-9-8-17

Hossa 8 seasons double digit in points including

20-12-14-26


Some pretty good offense there considering how much they excel in the defensive side of things.

Also Datsyuk was very obviously injured during a lot of that 9 point in 16 games run where he still played great two-way hockey.

 

[TopTenPlayz]

No I don't think I would because my vote was mostly predicated on how highly I rate Lafleur & peak Kariya. I think both at their very best had arguments for top 3 forward in the NHL which can't be said about any of the others in this poll. (Granted I don't think Kariya would be top 3 either against Crosby, Malkin, or Ovi but still think he peaked 2nd highest among those in this poll).

In either case whether Kopi or Bergeron, they are being centred by a guy who can do the defensive heavy lifting, puck retrieval, and won't be an offensive black hole.

I'm especially high on the Kariya/Lafleur combo because we know how well Kariya played with a speedy goal scorer like Selanne so we know the play styles mesh.

who was better than lafleur 1975-1979?

 

[HFpapi]

who was better than lafleur 1975-1979?

No one. I said "both had arguments for top 3" so that Kariya could fit under that umbrella too. There's no doubt about Lafleur.

 

[wetcoast]

No one. I said "both had arguments for top 3" so that Kariya could fit under that umbrella too. There's no doubt about Lafleur.

The thing is that we are talking about guys in a 7 game series so all this talk about 3,4,5 different post seasons don't actually amplify a 7 game series that's why I picked the first group as they have enough dominant 2 way PPG+ series with elite defensive play to overcome any offensive advantage Lafleur and Kopitar have which is already held back a little by Kariya who would be everyone's 6th best player for a 7 game series here easily.

 

[Sol]

Kopitar>>Bergeron
Datsyuk>=Kariya
LaFleur>>Hossa

Close but I’d take Kopitars trio just because Kopitar is very close to Bergeron defensively but undoubtedly a better producer by a wide margin.

 

[Coffee]

@x Tame Impala can we Do first to 200 actually

 

[norrisnick]

The thing is that we are talking about guys in a 7 game series so all this talk about 3,4,5 different post seasons don't actually amplify a 7 game series that's why I picked the first group as they have enough dominant 2 way PPG+ series with elite defensive play to overcome any offensive advantage Lafleur and Kopitar have which is already held back a little by Kariya who would be everyone's 6th best player for a 7 game series here easily.

Pick any of the three of the first group.

 

[HFpapi]

The thing is that we are talking about guys in a 7 game series so all this talk about 3,4,5 different post seasons don't actually amplify a 7 game series that's why I picked the first group as they have enough dominant 2 way PPG+ series with elite defensive play to overcome any offensive advantage Lafleur and Kopitar have which is already held back a little by Kariya who would be everyone's 6th best player for a 7 game series here easily.

Kariya had by far, BY FAR, the worst teams/supporting casts throughout his career relative to the others in this poll.

How much credit do we want to give Datsyuk for being a rookie 4th liner on one of the most stacked rosters in NHL history in his 2002 cup win? He was far from dominant in any of their other deeps runs either for that matter, never the best player on his team in a post season run.

Hossa too, great in the playoffs no doubt, huge contributor, but do we really think Kariya fares much worse playing on those loaded Hawks teams with Kane, Toews, Keith, Sharp, Seabrook, Byfuglien, Crawford et al? Hossa'a skill set suited that team better but it's not like they'd be held back if they had 1995 Paul Kariya instead.

Hard to evaluate a players playoff performances when the teams were as routinely weak as Kariya's were.

This hypothetical evens the playing field and I don't see much reason to think Kariya wouldn't be effective.

 

[wetcoast]

Pick any of the three of the first group.

Why just one the poll called for all 3 and your view would be extremely contrarian to put it mildly.

The question would be for a 7 game playoff series who would you pick?

Bergeron versus Kariya would be shut down very quickly, same with Datsyuk versus Kariya.

Hossam versus Kariya might be less lopsided but it would be extremely lopsided and for good reasons.

 

[norrisnick]

Why just one the poll called for all 3 and your view would be extremely contrarian to put it mildly.

The question would be for a 7 game playoff series who would you pick?

Bergeron versus Kariya would be shut down very quickly, same with Datsyuk versus Kariya.

Hossam versus Kariya might be less lopsided but it would be extremely lopsided and for good reasons.

It's not a 1v1 my dude. Kariya being a pure speed/skill guy to play opposite Lafleur and centered by, IMO, the strongest center in this scenario is plenty fine. Too many cooks. You don't need 3 guys digging in corners.