Datsyuk - Bergeron - Hossa vs Kariya - Kopitar - Guy Lafleur

[tarheelhockey]

If the goal is to predict a 7 game series, playoff achievements matter a hell of a lot more than 90pt+ regular seasons. Kariya playing most of his career on the expansion Ducks lags in that department, but Kopitar and Lafleur more than make up for it.

It’s also worth noting, Kariya only had two substantial playoff runs in his career. The first, during his prime, he had 13 points in 11 games. The only other one was the run to the Finals in which his overall production was disappointing, but he did have the legendary “off the floor, on the board” moment.

When we say Kariya’s playoff record is lacking, we’re really putting a ton of weight on his playing mostly on non-playoff teams. And his failure to score a few more points while falling *checks notes* one point short of the team lead while making it to Game 7 of the Finals.

 

[authentic]

Sure but why are people equating careers with a 7 games series that the OP presented?

this is how it breaks down for me.

Line 1 at their peak

- Datsyuk back to back 97 point seasons around 15 points away from the art Ross with Selke winning defense), great in the circle on faceoffs and a takeaway monster.

-Bergeron, elite in the faceoff circle and another takeaway monster who scored quite well i his peak later years and in peak playoff years he could be just under a PPG with that elite 2 way play.

-Hossa solid 90-100 point (adjusted) guy 4 years straight again another takeaway monster and very good 2 way player.

Second group led by Kopitar

- Kopitar elite on faceoffs and stacks up very well with Bergeron offensively and I'd say he is probably a little bit better but perhaps slightly behind Datsyuk at his peak offensively

Then we go to 2 excellent offensive wingers but definitely 5th and 6th in terms of 2 way play here and the gap is large.

-Lafleur, elite offensively at his peak just dynamic and the best pure offensive guy here and probably plays like he did with Lemaire which was excellent offesnviely.

Kariya is definitely the weak link here in terms of defensive play and has the weakest playoff resume both overall and peak/prime. Has killer speed at his peak and certainly could score but in a 7 game series he is probably 6th easily on this list.

He was also 15 points off the Art Ross playing 2 minutes less per game on the powerplay than the scoring leaders. The idea that he was a fringe top 10 player like one poster mentioned is insane to me, he was in conversations for best player at his peak and top 4 at worst.

 

[wetcoast]

If the goal is to predict a 7 game series, playoff achievements matter a hell of a lot more than 90pt+ regular seasons. Kariya playing most of his career on the expansion Ducks lags in that department, but Kopitar and Lafleur more than make up for it.

Sure but all 3 of the other guys were PPG 2 way monsters which is a consideration as those 3 and Kopitar are head and shoulders above the 2 wingers in terms of non offense impact.

 

[norrisnick]

Sure but all 3 of the other guys were PPG 2 way monsters which is a consideration as those 3 and Kopitar are head and shoulders above the 2 wingers in terms of non offense impact.

Not in the playoffs.

 

[wetcoast]

Not in the playoffs.

I'm on phone but I'm pretty sure all 3 guys have had playoffs were they were PPG+ to go along with elite 2 way play and it's not cherry picking if we are taking everyone's best or most consistent years in their primes.

Aside from Lafleur in the unbalanced high scoring dynasty 70s all of the other guys played in lower scoring playoff environments.

 

[wetcoast]

Not in the playoffs.

Actually over a 5 year stretch this is Datysuk

18-8-8-16
22-10-13-23
16-1-8-9
12-6-7-13
11-4-11-15

Bergeron in the 5 years he went double digits

13-4-7-11
23-6-14-20
22-9-6-15
11-6-10-16
24-9-8-17

Hossa 8 seasons double digit in points including

20-12-14-26


Some pretty good offense there considering how much they excel in the defensive side of things.

 

[norrisnick]

Actually over a 5 year stretch this is Datysuk

18-8-8-16
22-10-13-23
16-1-8-9
12-6-7-13
11-4-11-15

Bergeron in the 5 years he went double digits

13-4-7-11
23-6-14-20
22-9-6-15
11-6-10-16
24-9-8-17

Hossa 8 seasons double digit in points including

20-12-14-26


Some pretty good offense there considering how much they excel in the defensive side of things.

So, a not quite PPG run of seasons. A not quite PPG collection of playoffs. And the only PPG playoff (riding shotgun with Crosby) of Hossa's career.

 

[x Tame Impala]

So, a not quite PPG run of seasons. A not quite PPG collection of playoffs. And the only PPG playoff (riding shotgun with Crosby) of Hossa's career.

Sure we’ll just flatly compare the statline of players in the modern era in a 30 team league with players from Russia and Europe to Lafleur who played on a 70’s dynasty team in a 20 team league

 

[Zalos]

Kariya and Lafleur are on another level. So, I would have to go with their line.

People seem to forget that before his concussions, Kariya was compared to Gretzky. He was never able to reach his real peak.

 

[norrisnick]

Sure we’ll just flatly compare the statline of players in the modern era in a 30 team league with players from Russia and Europe to Lafleur who played on a 70’s dynasty team in a 20 team league

If you want, we can, ya.

However, even contextually, take that 5 year run of Datsyuk noted above. He wasn't the top playoff scorer or top defensive forward on his own team, let alone the league. Lafleur lapped the league, including all his dynasty teammates, in his 5 year run.

 

[wetcoast]

So, a not quite PPG run of seasons. A not quite PPG collection of playoffs. And the only PPG playoff (riding shotgun with Crosby) of Hossa's career.

Pretty much this,

Sure we’ll just flatly compare the statline of players in the modern era in a 30 team league with players from Russia and Europe to Lafleur who played on a 70’s dynasty team in a 20 team league

And if the 2 way trio gets the support of the 70's Habs teams then sure that's why I would take the first group as they have the added advantage of 2 elite shutdown centers.

Also the PPG threshold doesn't put into context playoff scoring in the different seasons.

For example in the 02-03 playoffs where Hossa had a 18-5-11-16 line a total of 10 players had a PPG and Hossa was 12th in that metric and 4th overall in points but let's just go to the weak well he had crosby that one year argument and gloss over the support Lafleur had eh.

01-02 Same thing Hossa was 22nd in PPG (.83) where 14 players had a PPG and another emasley assist would have had him tied for 15th just ahead of Joe sakic if one is inclined to name drop which I'm not as these aritary numbers don't mean very much.

But let's just look at a random year for Lafleur and playoff scoring.

76-77 20 players had a PPG

That seems close except that 4 of the playoff teams got eliminated in the first round which was a 3 game affair and I'm using 5 games as the filter to eliminate fluke short runs.

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[norrisnick]

I'm already pushing for the group with Lafleur. No need to argue for his cause.