Datsyuk - Bergeron - Hossa vs Kariya - Kopitar - Guy Lafleur

[wetcoast]

It's not a 1v1 my dude. Kariya being a pure speed/skill guy to play opposite Lafleur and centered by, IMO, the strongest center in this scenario is plenty fine. Too many cooks. You don't need 3 guys digging in corners.

You asserted that Kariya wasn't the worst of the 6, in fact your pick any of the 3 in the first group asserted that Kariya was at worst 3rd from all 6 players ehre which is complete balderdash thus your not answering the question your comments actually opened.

 

[wetcoast]

Kariya had by far, BY FAR, the worst teams/supporting casts throughout his career relative to the others in this poll.

Plenty of players on weaker teams have better individual playoff performances, it's no shame that Kariya is 6th here as there are some excellent players here.

By the same token with supporting casts Lafleur has by far the best and deepest supporting cast so if we want to go down that route we must do so for everyone right?

How much credit do we want to give Datsyuk for being a rookie 4th liner on one of the most stacked rosters in NHL history in his 2002 cup win?

What does that matter in the context of the OP?

Surely we are picking each player at their absolute best right?

He was far from dominant in any of their other deeps runs either for that matter, never the best player on his team in a post season run.

Well that's not really true as Datsyuk was the best Red Wing in the 10-11 post seasons, the leading scorer in both rounds.

1	Pavel Datsyuk*	32	C	11	4	11	15	10	8	2	2	0	0				38	10.5	233	21:09
2	Nicklas Lidström*	40	D	11	4	4	8	8	4	2	2	0	0				26	15.4	240	21:49
3	Henrik Zetterberg	30	C	7	3	5	8	6	2	2	1	0	0				20	15.0	154	21:59
4	Valtteri Filppula	26	C	11	2	6	8	5	6	2	0	0	2				24	8.3	196	17:47

Also in the 07-08 post season there was no shame in the performance Datsyuk brought as Zetterberg's performance is probably better than any of the 6 listed here right?

1	Henrik Zetterberg	27	C	22	13	14	27	16	16	7	4	2	4				116	11.2	497	22:36
2	Pavel Datsyuk*	29	C	22	10	13	23	13	6	6	4	0	1				74	13.5	477	21:40
3	Johan Franzén	28	LW	16	13	5	18	13	14	5	6	2	5				70	18.6	301	18:49
4	Niklas Kronwall	27	D	22	0	15	15	16	18	0	0	0	0				21	0.0	513	23:20
5	Jiří Hudler	24	RW	22	5	9	14	-1	14	3	2	0	2				46	10.9	255	11:36
6	Brian Rafalski	34	D	22	4	10	14	6	12	2	2	0	0				58	6.9	548	24:53
7	Mikael Samuelsson	31	RW	22	5	8	13	8	8	5	0	0	1				79	6.3	351	15:56
8	Nicklas Lidström*	37	D	22	3	10	13	8	14	1	1	1	1				41	7.3	590	26:49
9	Tomas Holmström	35	LW	21	4	8	12	4	26	3	1	0	0				41	9.8	361	17:10
10	Valtteri Filppula	23	C	22	5	6	11	7	2	5	0	0	0				39	12.8	367	16:

Hossa too, great in the playoffs no doubt, huge contributor, but do we really think Kariya fares much worse playing on those loaded Hawks teams with Kane, Toews, Keith, Sharp, Seabrook, Byfuglien, Crawford et al? Hossa'a skill set suited that team better but it's not like they'd be held back if they had 1995 Paul Kariya instead.

We have no idea but Hossa performed extremely well for 3 different teams in the playoffs and in his deeperest run he really didn't stand out very well all things considered.

1	Adam Oates*	40	C	21	4	9	13	2	6	1	3	0	1				18	22.2	404	19:15
2	Petr Sýkora	26	RW	21	4	9	13	3	12	3	1	0	2				58	6.9	392	18:39
3	Paul Kariya*	28	LW	21	6	6	12	0	6	6	0	0	1				53	11.3	446	21:15
4	Mike Leclerc	26	LW	21	2	9	11	3	12	1	1	0	2				55	3.6	400	19:02
5	Steve Rucchin	31	C	21	7	3	10	-2	2	6	1	0	2				46	15.2	495	23:35
6	Rob Niedermayer	28	C	21	3	7	10	-5	18	1	0	2	0				41	7.3	495	23:35

Then again he was probably a better player before his injuries and his first playoff was quite good but with Kariya and Lafleur both players who want the puck on the wings who is going to check in the corners on that line Kopitar on both sides?

Hard to evaluate a players playoff performances when the teams were as routinely weak as Kariya's were.

This hypothetical evens the playing field and I don't see much reason to think Kariya wouldn't be effective.

Hypotheticals are great but Norrisnick is going to be all over you on that one because he hates hypotheticals....unless it's one that he agrees with.

I think we have enough tangible evidence on the first group to see how they would most likely prevail here.

 

[wetcoast]

It's not a 1v1 my dude. Kariya being a pure speed/skill guy to play opposite Lafleur and centered by, IMO, the strongest center in this scenario is plenty fine. Too many cooks. You don't need 3 guys digging in corners.

No you don't need 3 guys but you need at least one and the other line is more balanced and you can break up the 2 centers to form 2 excellent lines the second group not so much.

 

[norrisnick]

You asserted that Kariya wasn't the worst of the 6, in fact your pick any of the 3 in the first group asserted that Kariya was at worst 3rd from all 6 players ehre which is complete balderdash thus your not answering the question your comments actually opened.

And he's not. Prime Kariya finished as the top skater in '97 Hart voting.

1v1 is not hockey. Gretzky by himself, without linemates to play with, can only do so much if a guy like Gainey decides to play Velcro. That doesn't make Gainey a better choice because once you add linemates and the synergy that's possible much of this 'player X can negate player Y" goes away.

 

[wetcoast]

And he's not. Prime Kariya finished as the top skater in '97 Hart voting.

That's great but the OP is asking about a 7 game series which implies a playoff series.

1v1 is not hockey. Gretzky by himself, without linemates to play with, can only do so much if a guy like Gainey decides to play Velcro. That doesn't make Gainey a better choice because once you add linemates and the synergy that's possible much of this 'player X can negate player Y" goes away.

Thankfully we have lots of NHL playoff history to look at here rather than 1 on 1 play that your strawman is bringing in right?

 

[Connor McConnor]

Bergeron outplayed Kopitar in just about every matchup they've had on the ice too and I would say Kopitar is a little better at producing points.

How many matchups have they even had? This seems irrelevant. Bergeron is overrated and Kopitar is underrated. I don’t know why Boston fans need to elevate the myth that is Bergeron any further. Exceptional 2 way player but the dude would average 50-60 points without others around him carrying the offense.

 

[norrisnick]

That's great but the OP is asking about a 7 game series which implies a playoff series.

Thankfully we have lots of NHL playoff history to look at here rather than 1 on 1 play that your strawman is bringing in right?

View attachment 911841

And Kariya has a nifty 9pt playoff series on his resume. You were listing a bunch of 90+ regular seasons up thread so I pointed out that Kariya had a higher Hart finish than any of Datsyuk, Bergeron, or Hossa. At Kariya's peak, he was above all of Datsyuk, Bergeron, and Hossa.

edit - what strawman? What is this supposed to be if not some 1v1 silliness?

"Bergeron versus Kariya would be shut down very quickly, same with Datsyuk versus Kariya.

Hossam versus Kariya might be less lopsided but it would be extremely lopsided and for good reasons."

 

[wetcoast]

And Kariya has a nifty 9pt playoff series on his resume.

That's great a single series.

You were listing a bunch of 90+ regular seasons up thread so I pointed out that Kariya had a higher Hart finish than any of Datsyuk, Bergeron, or Hossa.

Sure Hart voters liked the narrative that year for Kariya and lots of great players like Lindros, Forsberg, Jagr and Sakic among others missed parts of the season.

At Kariya's peak, he was above all of Datsyuk, Bergeron, and Hossa.

No that's not what it means it's freaking hart voting that's all and it's still regular season.

He had a good playoff series sure.

Bergeron, Datsyuk and Hossa have multiple series like that one.

Even regular season peak it's hard to argue that Datsyuk's 2 97 point seasons weren't better though less than 15 points off the Art Ross with Selke defense.

 

[SirKillalot]

How much credit do we want to give Datsyuk for being a rookie 4th liner on one of the most stacked rosters in NHL history in his 2002 cup win? He was far from dominant in any of their other deeps runs either for that matter, never the best player on his team in a post season run.

Datysuk scored the 7th most on that 2002 cup winning team:
2001-02 Detroit Red Wings Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts | Hockey-Reference.com

He was also dominant during their cup win as well. Not alone by himself, but he and Zetterberg absolutely dominated with their all-round play.

 

[norrisnick]

That's great a single series.

Sure Hart voters liked the narrative that year for Kariya and lots of great players like Lindros, Forsberg, Jagr and Sakic among others missed parts of the season.

No that's not what it means it's freaking hart voting that's all and it's still regular season.

He had a good playoff series sure.

Bergeron, Datsyuk and Hossa have multiple series like that one.

Even regular season peak it's hard to argue that Datsyuk's 2 97 point seasons weren't better though less than 15 points off the Art Ross with Selke defense.

Yep, and that's what we're looking for, right?

Kariya missed 13 games himself.

So Hart's and their subsequent voting records irrelevant now? I'm confused. Also are 90+ regular seasons important, or not. Because you're giving mixed signals here.

 

[wetcoast]

Yep, and that's what we're looking for, right?

Kariya missed 13 games himself.

So Hart's and their subsequent voting records irrelevant now? I'm confused. Also are 90+ regular seasons important, or not. Because you're giving mixed signals here.

You are usually confused not my fault and the 7 games infers a playoff round and the first group I believe is better and have stated why and they have consistently brought it come playoff time in their peaks, your assertion that Kariya was a better playoff option as his peak than any of the first group is laughable and something you have run away from so let's review it here.

The thing is that we are talking about guys in a 7 game series so all this talk about 3,4,5 different post seasons don't actually amplify a 7 game series that's why I picked the first group as they have enough dominant 2 way PPG+ series with elite defensive play to overcome any offensive advantage Lafleur and Kopitar have which is already held back a little by Kariya who would be everyone's 6th best player for a 7 game series here easily.

Pick any of the three of the first group.

But then again your arguments aren't in good faith as per usual.

 

[wetcoast]

And Kariya has a nifty 9pt playoff series on his resume. You were listing a bunch of 90+ regular seasons up thread so I pointed out that Kariya had a higher Hart finish than any of Datsyuk, Bergeron, or Hossa. At Kariya's peak, he was above all of Datsyuk, Bergeron, and Hossa.

edit - what strawman? What is this supposed to be if not some 1v1 silliness?

"Bergeron versus Kariya would be shut down very quickly, same with Datsyuk versus Kariya.

Hossam versus Kariya might be less lopsided but it would be extremely lopsided and for good reasons."

I said that Kariya is the 6th best player in this thread and you said no all of the 3 in the first group were below him so I responded then you shifted to avoid the actual question which sadly is par for the course here.

People can read and see what you are doing here, we disagree and that's great but at least make good faith arguments don't make assertions then run away it's not a good look.

 

[norrisnick]

You are usually confused not my fault and the 7 games infers a playoff round and the first group I believe is better and have stated why and they have consistently brought it come playoff time in their peaks, your assertion that Kariya was a better playoff option as his peak than any of the first group is laughable and something you have run away from so let's review it here.


But then again your arguments aren't in good faith as per usual.

I'm not running from anything. Paul Kariya, as a blazing fast shooter opposite Guy Lafleur with Kopitar in the middle is absolutely my preferred pick over any of Datsyuk, Bergeron, or Hossa. Hossa comes the closest but he didn't have the same level of pop offensively.

 

[norrisnick]

I said that Kariya is the 6th best player in this thread and you said no all of the 3 in the first group were below him so I responded then you shifted to avoid the actual question which sadly is par for the course here.

People can read and see what you are doing here, we disagree and that's great but at least make good faith arguments don't make assertions then run away it's not a good look.

And I disagreed with that stance, as it isn't supported by anything short of Kariya playing on the weakest teams of the 6 and subsequently has a stunted playoff record. When he was healthy and able to play in the playoffs he did fine. A prime Paul Kariya is not some useless entity that needs to be dragged around the ice.

 

[wetcoast]

I'm not running from anything. Paul Kariya, as a blazing fast shooter opposite Guy Lafleur with Kopitar in the middle is absolutely my preferred pick over any of Datsyuk, Bergeron, or Hossa. Hossa comes the closest but he didn't have the same level of pop offensively.

And as I have shown above in the playoffs that your assertion simply isn't true and we are talking about a 7 game series here right?

Perhaps you should answer this guy here eh?

Because you're giving mixed signals here.

Go ahead and do a thread on ranking these 4 playoff performers at their peak

Datsyuk, Bergeron, Hossa and Kariya and see what you find.

And I disagreed with that stance, as it isn't supported by anything short of Kariya playing on the weakest teams of the 6 and subsequently has a stunted playoff record.

Counter that with Lafleur playing on by far the strongest team then or does context only matter some of the time?

When he was healthy and able to play in the playoffs he did fine.

Sure he did fine.

A prime Paul Kariya is not some useless entity that needs to be dragged around the ice.

No one is saying this so go put your strawman back on the farm, what was stated was that he would be picked 6th easily as a peak playoff performer by the majority of people here which is still the question you are dancing around.

I put the question in another thread maybe you might elarn something there.

Rank these 4 players at their peak that you'd want in a 7 game playoff series

Just like the question asks rank these players at their peaks in a 7 game playoff series. Bergeron Datsyuk Hossa Kariya

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Fighter]

People seems to forget the absolute offensive monster that Kariya was before having his career destroyed by injuries.

And come on, Lafleur is leap and bounds the best player out of these six, how in the hell can the other line win?

 

[authentic]

Datysuk scored the 7th most on that 2002 cup winning team:
2001-02 Detroit Red Wings Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts | Hockey-Reference.com

He was also dominant during their cup win as well. Not alone by himself, but he and Zetterberg absolutely dominated with their all-round play.

There is a big misconception in recent years about Datsyuk not being a great playoff performer and Zetterberg taking all the credit. Sure Zetterberg was better during their Cup runs but the difference has been overstated and outside of those years Datsyuk was vastly more dominant.

 

[authentic]

People seems to forget the absolute offensive monster that Kariya was before having his career destroyed by injuries.

And come on, Lafleur is leap and bounds the best player out of these six, how in the hell can the other line win?

I think it would be rather close, but that speed and skill would be tough to contend with for sure. On the other hand Dastyuk’s line would be a defensive powerhouse with some offense of their own who would not give the puck up easily to two mediocre defensive forwards and just 1 who could match any individual player on that line. That’s why it’s such a good poll, hard to imagine there is really a wrong answer here.

 

[norrisnick]

And as I have shown above in the playoffs that your assertion simply isn't true and we are talking about a 7 game series here right?

Perhaps you should answer this guy here eh?

Go ahead and do a thread on ranking these 4 playoff performers at their peak

Datsyuk, Bergeron, Hossa and Kariya and see what you find.


Counter that with Lafleur playing on by far the strongest team then or does context only matter some of the time?

Sure he did fine.

No one is saying this so go put your strawman back on the farm, what was stated was that he would be picked 6th easily as a peak playoff performer by the majority of people here which is still the question you are dancing around.

I put the question in another thread maybe you might elarn something there.

Rank these 4 players at their peak that you'd want in a 7 game playoff series

Just like the question asks rank these players at their peaks in a 7 game playoff series. Bergeron Datsyuk Hossa Kariya

forums.hfboards.com

My assertion as to my preference of who I would pick out of the 6 players for a playoff series is absolutely true. What isn't true is your assertion that everyone would have Kariya 6th. Or do you not understand how people's opinions work?

I am wholly disinterested in what HFBoards would churn out for that poll, but knock yourself out.

And he was by far the strongest player (edit, on his team) in that stretch of time. Something that can't be said for Datsyuk, Hossa, or Bergeron. It can be said for Kariya and Kopitar.

I advise you to go back and read what was stated.

There is a big misconception in recent years about Datsyuk not being a great playoff performer and Zetterberg taking all the credit. Sure Zetterberg was better during their Cup runs but the difference has been overstated and outside of those years Datsyuk was vastly more dominant.

His youtube clips were vastly more dominant, but that's about it.

 

[authentic]

My assertion as to my preference of who I would pick out of the 6 players for a playoff series is absolutely true. What isn't true is your assertion that everyone would have Kariya 6th. Or do you not understand how people's opinions work?

I am wholly disinterested in what HFBoards would churn out for that poll, but knock yourself out.

And he was by far the strongest player in that stretch of time. Something that can't be said for Datsyuk, Hossa, or Bergeron. It can be said for Kariya and Kopitar.

I advise you to go back and read what was stated.


His youtube clips were vastly more dominant, but that's about it.

Those as well

 

[SirKillalot]

His youtube clips were vastly more dominant, but that's about it.

Dude, you have a whole league of players saying at the time that he was the best player in the league. He was winning every players in the league polled poll for some years. Datsyuk and Zetterberg was 1a and 1b and it wasn't Z that was seen as the A-side of the two except for in the Cup run in 2008. Even then he wasn't seen as the best player of the two, but he had the most impact during that cup timespan.

We were lucky to have them both and should have won another cup, could have maybe been to 4 finals in 4 years with some luck. And that is not counting the 2006 1st round shambles.

 

[norrisnick]

Dude, you have a whole league of players saying at the time that he was the best player in the league. He was winning every players in the league polled poll for some years. Datsyuk and Zetterberg was 1a and 1b and it wasn't Z that was seen as the A-side of the two except for in the Cup run in 2008. Even then he wasn't seen as the best player of the two, but he had the most impact during that cup timespan.

We were lucky to have them both and should have won another cup, could have maybe been to 4 finals in 4 years with some luck. And that is not counting the 2006 1st round shambles.

I think I value wetcoast's opinion a hair over player polls.

 

[SirKillalot]

I think I value wetcoast's opinion a hair over player polls.

Yes of course players playing years in the league don't know what they are talking about.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Bergeron versus Kariya would be shut down very quickly, same with Datsyuk versus Kariya.

Hossam versus Kariya might be less lopsided but it would be extremely lopsided and for good reasons.

The idea that a peak, Hart-level Kariya would be shut down, or that his matchup would be “extremely lopsided”, is just inexplicable. In his only playoff run during that part of his career, he put up 7-6-13 in 11 games, including PPG against the legendary 1997 Red Wings despite his team losing in a sweep. This was coming off posting 44-55-99 in only 69 regular season games. What makes you think anyone would just casually shut him down and make the matchup lopsided?

 

[Felidae]

This poll is a great example of when two-way play gets way overrated. Datsuyk - Bergeron - Hossa would indeed be an absurd line and a shut down line like no other but Lafleur is BY FAR the best player in this poll and peak Kariya is the second best.

Also, hot take but I think Kopitar > Bergeron and if they switched localities for their career, no one would doubt that. Kopitar not only played on the Pacific coast (thus less attention from media & fans) but played much of his career under one of the most offensively stifling coaches and still was far more offensively prolific than Bergeron while being his equal (or close to it) defensively.

Just like how Kopitar has the clear edge in offensive ability, Bergeron also has the edge in defensive ability as well.

There's a reason Bergeron dominated selke voting for a large part of his prime.

Bergeron's takeaway/giveaway ratio is also significantly better than Kopitar's. That's at least one aspect of defensive play Bergeron has a clear edge in. And yes before anyone says, i'm aware takeaway/giveaways is a shoddy stat. But that's an issue across the board with all teams, so it doesn't really explain the humongous gap

That being said... I do think the offensive gap is larger than the defensive one. I do have Kopi>Bergeron if ever so slightly.

I think this poll is heavily influenced by the cult legend status Bergeron and especially Datsyuk have taken on. Datsyuk was amazing and better than his stats suggest but he was never more than a fringe top 10 player, had a very short peak, and was a mediocre-at-best playoff performer.

This is just factually incorrect. Datsyuk finished 3rd in hart voting in 2009-10, and 9th in hart voting the previous year

Both seasons were statistically identical, the only difference is Lidstrom finished 4th in hart voting in 2008-09, likely taking away some votes that would otherwise go to Datsyuk. The next year, Lidstrom has a down year which allowed Datsyuk to stand out on his team more (in regards to hart voting)