Datsyuk - Bergeron - Hossa vs Kariya - Kopitar - Guy Lafleur

[HFpapi]

This poll is a great example of when two-way play gets way overrated. Datsuyk - Bergeron - Hossa would indeed be an absurd line and a shut down line like no other but Lafleur is BY FAR the best player in this poll and peak Kariya is the second best.

Also, hot take but I think Kopitar > Bergeron and if they switched localities for their career, no one would doubt that. Kopitar not only played on the Pacific coast (thus less attention from media & fans) but played much of his career under one of the most offensively stifling coaches and still was far more offensively prolific than Bergeron while being his equal (or close to it) defensively.

I think this poll is heavily influenced by the cult legend status Bergeron and especially Datsyuk have taken on. Datsyuk was amazing and better than his stats suggest but he was never more than a fringe top 10 player, had a very short peak, and was a mediocre-at-best playoff performer.

 

[Coffee]

The fact that the second trio somehow lost is f***ed up

They didn’t lose, boubs, Poll is still open and I will not give up. We will get justice

If the poll closes and we still lose, then it was not meant to be and we live in a illusion world

 

[BraveCanadian]

The fact that the second trio somehow lost is f***ed up

Two outta three on the first are HFBoards overrated darlings.

Just be glad they didn't put Fedorov in there to go for the sweep.

This is easily line 2 for a few reasons.

 

[wetcoast]

This thread is starting to show just how underrated Lafleur is on these boards. No one in this poll is even close to him. He is the X factor in a list of players who all rank in and around the same level, as a top 20 player of all time, while no one else has a firm case for top 100. His prime is amongst the best ever and he was clutch AF. As Scotty Bowman said "When he was on his game, there was no one better.".

This whole "no one on line 2 would touch the puck" nonsense is just laughable parody. Line 1 would touch the puck plenty of times but a lot of it would be fishing the puck out of their own net.

Sure Lafleur does better in an all time ranking but in a 7 game series with players at their peak Datsyuk and bergeron are pretty good in their own right as was Hossa.

Then again I think Lafleur is over rated because of the circumstances of his 6 year peak already so there is that.

 

[x Tame Impala]

This poll is a great example of when two-way play gets way overrated. Datsuyk - Bergeron - Hossa would indeed be an absurd line and a shut down line like no other but Lafleur is BY FAR the best player in this poll and peak Kariya is the second best.

Also, hot take but I think Kopitar > Bergeron and if they switched localities for their career, no one would doubt that. Kopitar not only played on the Pacific coast (thus less attention from media & fans) but played much of his career under one of the most offensively stifling coaches and still was far more offensively prolific than Bergeron while being his equal (or close to it) defensively.

I think this poll is heavily influenced by the cult legend status Bergeron and especially Datsyuk have taken on. Datsyuk was amazing and better than his stats suggest but he was never more than a fringe top 10 player, had a very short peak, and was a mediocre-at-best playoff performer.

I agree that Kopitar is better than Bergeron. Despite the Selke’s I think he’s the last of the bunch I’d take of: Kopitar, Datsyuk, Toews, Zetterberg shutdown 1C types

 

[HFpapi]

I agree that Kopitar is better than Bergeron. Despite the Selke’s I think he’s the last of the bunch I’d take of: Kopitar, Datsyuk, Toews, Zetterberg shutdown 1C types

Absolutely.

Don't want to sound like I'm hating on him because he was amazing and I respect his game a lot but I feel like there became a lot of revisionist history/romanticization of his career.

For most of his career he was not talked about as being in the upper echelon of centers, he was viewed more as the ultimate #2 center, the elite of the elite #2 C's but not a true superstar #1. Only near the end when he started getting Selke 4 & 5 (which is the ultimate reputation award) did people start talking about him like he was a top 5 C and made that sentiment retroactive.

At their best, Bergeron is a tier below Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Toews, and Kopitar, guys who could shut the other teams best player down as well as Bergy could but also had 80-90+ points in their bag.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Absolutely.

Don't want to sound like I'm hating on him because he was amazing and I respect his game a lot but I feel like there became a lot of revisionist history/romanticization of his career.

For most of his career he was not talked about as being in the upper echelon of centers, he was viewed more as the ultimate #2 center, the elite of the elite #2 C's but not a true superstar #1. Only near the end when he started getting Selke 4 & 5 (which is the ultimate reputation award) did people start talking about him like he was a top 5 C and made that sentiment retroactive.

At their best, Bergeron is a tier below Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Toews, and Kopitar, guys who could shut the other teams best player down as well as Bergy could but also had 80-90+ points in their bag.

If Kopitar and Bergeron were swapped in these lineups would you change your vote?

 

[HFpapi]

If Kopitar and Bergeron were swapped in these lineups would you change your vote?

No I don't think I would because my vote was mostly predicated on how highly I rate Lafleur & peak Kariya. I think both at their very best had arguments for top 3 forward in the NHL which can't be said about any of the others in this poll. (Granted I don't think Kariya would be top 3 either against Crosby, Malkin, or Ovi but still think he peaked 2nd highest among those in this poll).

In either case whether Kopi or Bergeron, they are being centred by a guy who can do the defensive heavy lifting, puck retrieval, and won't be an offensive black hole.

I'm especially high on the Kariya/Lafleur combo because we know how well Kariya played with a speedy goal scorer like Selanne so we know the play styles mesh.

 

[PM88RU]

lol at people saying 1st line couldn’t handle Lafleur.

Haven’t seen Guy live, but I’ve never heard of Lafleur as clear cut #5 above all the other candidates right after big 4, and no one claimed to rename big 4 into big 5 with him.

Dats in his prime could handle with Crosby. Heh, even Rookie Dats robbed Jagr once, and Jagr himself said he can learn from Dats “even in his age”.

Some might have recency bias, sure, but let’s admit that other clearly value non-European before expansion NHL trophies too much.

 

[SirKillalot]

The gap in offensive ability between these lines is just too much for the other line being better defensively to overcome.

You never watched Datsyuk with the puck did you?

 

[HFpapi]

lol at people saying 1st line couldn’t handle Lafleur.

Haven’t seen Guy live, but I’ve never heard of Lafleur as clear cut #5 above all the other candidates right after big 4, and no one claimed to rename big 4 into big 5 with him.

Dats in his prime could handle with Crosby. Heh, even Rookie Dats robbed Jagr once, and Jagr himself said he can learn from Dats “even in his age”.

Some might have recency bias, sure, but let’s admit that other clearly value non-European before expansion NHL trophies too much.

It was famously Zetterberg who was given the Crosby matchup in 2008 and shut him down.

 

[BraveCanadian]

You never watched Datsyuk with the puck did you?

You got me, that must be it

/s

 

[SirKillalot]

It was famously Zetterberg who was given the Crosby matchup in 2008 and shut him down.

It wasn't necessarily about the defensive aspect that was done. As Datsyuk could & would have done that as well. The difference between them was Datsyuk was a better scoring threat when it comes to creating chances that's one thing. The other thing is Datsyuk was better at defending when it comes to a line vs line, while Zetterberg was better at straight up defensive man-man.

So the decision was a mix on put Z on man-to-man duties and have Datsyuk creating the chances offensively as he would hit that at a better rate than Zetterberg with his versatility and let him have a more offensive defensive duties as well with his puck stealing work.

 

[norrisnick]

It wasn't necessarily about the defensive aspect that was done. As Datsyuk could & would have done that as well. The difference between them was Datsyuk was a better scoring threat when it comes to creating chances that's one thing. The other thing is Datsyuk was better at defending when it comes to a line vs line, while Zetterberg was better at straight up defensive man-man.

So the decision was a mix on put Z on man-to-man duties and have Datsyuk creating the chances offensively as he would hit that at a better rate than Zetterberg with his versatility and let him have a more offensive defensive duties as well with his puck stealing work.

Except of course that Zetterberg was not only better defensively but offensively as well (in the playoffs).

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Let's examine offense - Lafleur's top-5 scoring finishes are 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 4

Meanwhile, the field has 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5

So, yeah.

 

[SirKillalot]

Except of course that Zetterberg was not only better defensively but offensively as well (in the playoffs).

Yes in the playoffs he ended up with more points. Part of the reason was that he had 4 shorthanded points and a EN in the playoffs. Back then even though Zetterberg was never the fastest, he was quite quick for some time of his career. Other than that both guys scored points with each other and some points either apart or just on the ice together when one got points and the other didn't.

Just saying what the reasoning behind why they made the assignments how they did. Datsyuk was still the better offensive player of the two, thus they made Zetterberg take the majority of the Crosby matchup.

Besides that they were pretty even, one could argue Datsyuk should or could have scored more and that everything didn't go as planned and that would be true. He had a good but not spectacular playoffs. Zetterberg won the Conn Smythe deservedly so because of his defensive and all-round play in that timespan. Also why the one competing with Zetterberg to win it was Osgood.

 

[SirKillalot]

Let's examine offense - Lafleur's top-5 scoring finishes are 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 4

Meanwhile, the field has 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5

So, yeah.

It's not a question who scores most in the league.
Question is which line wins, and its three-two way players on one side with two being long term Selke candidates and one of them being arguably the best dangler and puck retriever of their generation plus a high scoring two way winger.

To me even though Paul Kariya was very good as young, I think he is the one dragging their line down a little bit. Not sure if that is even the right word to use as don't really think its his fault. But, think the construction of the first line is better and easier to imagine working out than the second one.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

It's not a question who scores most in the league.

Somehow I feel like that's pretty important

 

[Bouboumaster]

lol at people saying 1st line couldn’t handle Lafleur.

Haven’t seen Guy live, but I’ve never heard of Lafleur as clear cut #5 above all the other candidates right after big 4, and no one claimed to rename big 4 into big 5 with him.

Dats in his prime could handle with Crosby. Heh, even Rookie Dats robbed Jagr once, and Jagr himself said he can learn from Dats “even in his age”.

Some might have recency bias, sure, but let’s admit that other clearly value non-European before expansion NHL trophies too much.

Lafleur ain't top 5 but at worst he's top 15, and nobody else in this thread touch him

 

[Pablo El Perro]

That's going to be a hard case to make.

Lafleur Hart record:
1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 14,

Datsyuk Hart record:
3, 9, 10, 14, 20, 21

Throw in Lafluer's Conn Smythe and 6 first team all-star selections and it's clear which player dominated their time and which player was more of a top 10 of his era kind of player.

Lafleur doesn't get much love around here.

 

[wetcoast]

Absolutely.

Don't want to sound like I'm hating on him because he was amazing and I respect his game a lot but I feel like there became a lot of revisionist history/romanticization of his career.

For most of his career he was not talked about as being in the upper echelon of centers, he was viewed more as the ultimate #2 center, the elite of the elite #2 C's but not a true superstar #1. Only near the end when he started getting Selke 4 & 5 (which is the ultimate reputation award) did people start talking about him like he was a top 5 C and made that sentiment retroactive.

At their best, Bergeron is a tier below Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Toews, and Kopitar, guys who could shut the other teams best player down as well as Bergy could but also had 80-90+ points in their bag.

Sure but why are people equating careers with a 7 games series that the OP presented?

this is how it breaks down for me.

Line 1 at their peak

- Datsyuk back to back 97 point seasons around 15 points away from the art Ross with Selke winning defense), great in the circle on faceoffs and a takeaway monster.

-Bergeron, elite in the faceoff circle and another takeaway monster who scored quite well i his peak later years and in peak playoff years he could be just under a PPG with that elite 2 way play.

-Hossa solid 90-100 point (adjusted) guy 4 years straight again another takeaway monster and very good 2 way player.

Second group led by Kopitar

- Kopitar elite on faceoffs and stacks up very well with Bergeron offensively and I'd say he is probably a little bit better but perhaps slightly behind Datsyuk at his peak offensively

Then we go to 2 excellent offensive wingers but definitely 5th and 6th in terms of 2 way play here and the gap is large.

-Lafleur, elite offensively at his peak just dynamic and the best pure offensive guy here and probably plays like he did with Lemaire which was excellent offesnviely.

Kariya is definitely the weak link here in terms of defensive play and has the weakest playoff resume both overall and peak/prime. Has killer speed at his peak and certainly could score but in a 7 game series he is probably 6th easily on this list.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Lafleur ain't top 5 but at worst he's top 15, and nobody else in this thread touch him

This really seems to be getting overlooked by a lot of folks.

Lafleur was THE best player in hockey for an era, granted Bobby Orr was missing with injury, but he was also missing from the 2000s where he would also have been the best player in the world, so that breaks even. After Orr, Lafleur was your MVP and analogue to what McDavid is doing currently as the guy who can walk anyone right to the net. While not a big-5, he’s what… probably the 6th or 7th best winger of all time? He doesn’t belong in a conversation with the rest of this group.

 

[norrisnick]

Sure but why are people equating careers with a 7 games series that the OP presented?

this is how it breaks down for me.

Line 1 at their peak

- Datsyuk back to back 97 point seasons around 15 points away from the art Ross with Selke winning defense), great in the circle on faceoffs and a takeaway monster.

-Bergeron, elite in the faceoff circle and another takeaway monster who scored quite well i his peak later years and in peak playoff years he could be just under a PPG with that elite 2 way play.

-Hossa solid 90-100 point (adjusted) guy 4 years straight again another takeaway monster and very good 2 way player.

Second group led by Kopitar

- Kopitar elite on faceoffs and stacks up very well with Bergeron offensively and I'd say he is probably a little bit better but perhaps slightly behind Datsyuk at his peak offensively

Then we go to 2 excellent offensive wingers but definitely 5th and 6th in terms of 2 way play here and the gap is large.

-Lafleur, elite offensively at his peak just dynamic and the best pure offensive guy here and probably plays like he did with Lemaire which was excellent offesnviely.

Kariya is definitely the weak link here in terms of defensive play and has the weakest playoff resume both overall and peak/prime. Has killer speed at his peak and certainly could score but in a 7 game series he is probably 6th easily on this list.

One group led the playoffs in scoring a combined 5 times. The other never managed that feat.

 

[wetcoast]

One group led the playoffs in scoring a combined 5 times. The other never managed that feat.

Man I've been doing this wrong the whole time everyone knows this is the only metric that matters right?

 

[norrisnick]

Man I've been doing this wrong the whole time everyone knows this is the only metric that matters right?

If the goal is to predict a 7 game series, playoff achievements matter a hell of a lot more than 90pt+ regular seasons. Kariya playing most of his career on the expansion Ducks lags in that department, but Kopitar and Lafleur more than make up for it.