Daniel Sprong Containment Thread Part 3 | Mod Warning Post #1

[Ogrezilla]

Giving it SOME weight sure, making it the be all, no.

Same with production.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

which tells me the Ducks aren't very good at scoring, not that Sprong is very good at scoring. He's okay. Mostly on the PP. Which is fine, but not what we need.

Sprong's numbers would be good for 5th in P/60 and 3rd in G/60 among Pens players who've played more than 10 games...and all the Pens players above him are making 5.5 mil plus starting next season. And that's despite playing with Henrique instead of Crosby and Malkin.

That should tell you that either Sprong's good at scoring period, or that the overwhelming majority of our line-up is less than okay at scoring.

right, with Simon at RW. The 4th RW on our team who is better than Sprong 5v5.

Better, yet scores less overall despite regularly playing with far better players?

Not the conclusion I'd come to.

sure, has to is strong. But he'd still be our 5th best RW 5v5 if we include Simon. So unless Simon and someone else are at LW, or someone is hurt, Sprong is still on the 4th line. But I'm not promoting Sprong up the line-up at 5v5 because he's a solid 2nd unit PP guy.

People have been hurt, and Rust should not have had a stranglehold on a top 9 RW spot.

Now we're moving Kessel to LW to accommodate this madness.

 

[Ryder71]

Same with production.

Heres how I view that. When looking at all the different components to a team everyone has a particular role. You have high end talent, complimentary pieces with good offensive acumen, you have good defensive guys, muckers and grinders, etc. Sprong would be in the first or 2hd category. So there would be a bigger premium on him to score as opposed to a guy like Cullen, or Wilson. I'm sure you get my point.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Heres how I view that. When looking at all the different components to a team everyone has a particular role. You have high end talent, complimentary pieces with good offensive acumen, you have good defensive guys, muckers and grinders, etc. Sprong would be in the first or 2hd category. So there would be a bigger premium on him to score as opposed to a guy like Cullen, or Wilson. I'm sure you get my point.

Seems like a good time to point out that Sprong's possession stats are among the best on the Ducks, too.

2018-19 Anaheim Ducks Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Turns out he's not a possession black hole so long as you don't bury him in his own end for a handful of minutes a night.

 

[Ryder71]

Seems like a good time to point out that Sprong's possession stats are among the best on the Ducks, too.

2018-19 Anaheim Ducks Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Turns out he's not a possession black hole so long as you don't bury him in his own end for a handful of minutes a night.

But isn't that what Sully was intentionally doing when putting him with 4th liners here? Constantly putting him in a position to fail. Just some don't want to see that.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Sprong's numbers would be good for 5th in P/60 and 3rd in G/60 among Pens players who've played more than 10 games...and all the Pens players above him are making 5.5 mil plus starting next season. And that's despite playing with Henrique instead of Crosby and Malkin.

That should tell you that either Sprong's good at scoring period, or that the overwhelming majority of our line-up is less than okay at scoring.

It tells he he's solid on the powerplay. His 5v5 points per 60 with the Ducks would rank him 12th on the Pens. You can factor in his powerplay production overall, but you shouldn't be factoring it in to where he would belong at 5v5.

Better, yet scores less overall despite regularly playing with far better players?

Not the conclusion I'd come to.

Same issue. You are using his PP production to promote him up the 5v5 line-up.

 

[Ogrezilla]

People have been hurt, and Rust should not have had a stranglehold on a top 9 RW spot.

Now we're moving Kessel to LW to accommodate this madness.

We have Kessel at LW because Simon has been good at RW. We have 3 RW's ahead of Sprong at 5v5 regardless of which of them is playing LW.

And again, Sprong being as good as them at production is not good enough. He needs to be better at producing to be as good as they are.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Heres how I view that. When looking at all the different components to a team everyone has a particular role. You have high end talent, complimentary pieces with good offensive acumen, you have good defensive guys, muckers and grinders, etc. Sprong would be in the first or 2hd category. So there would be a bigger premium on him to score as opposed to a guy like Cullen, or Wilson. I'm sure you get my point.

I do. But if he's one dimensional at scoring, but he doesn't score more than Rust or Horny, that's not good is it?

 

[Ryder71]

I do. But if he's one dimensional at scoring, but he doesn't score more than Rust or Horny, that's not good is it?

If he's given the commensurate amount of ice time as those guys and with a similar quality in terms of linemates then no. But that wasn't the case.

 

[Ogrezilla]

If he's given the commensurate amount of ice time as those guys and with a similar quality in terms of linemates then no. But that wasn't the case.

well we're never going to get any new info then if his 5v5 stats don't count on his own team's top 6. So I guess we're done?

 

[Ryder71]

well we're never going to get any new info then if his 5v5 stats don't count on his own team's top 6. So I guess we're done?

When did he get ample time in the top six here?

 

[Ogrezilla]

When did he get ample time in the top six here?

define ample. And what does that have to do with what I said? My point is that you can't just forever ignore his actual 5v5 production with the Ducks just because he's not playing with Sid or Geno.

 

[Ryder71]

define ample.

Similar to the players you're comparing him to. It needs to be a balanced argument, yes?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Similar to the players you're comparing him to.

we can't do that. All we can do is compare what is actually happening.

 

[Ryder71]

we can't do that. All we can do is compare what is actually happening.

But then the metrics by which you're making your comparisons can be viewed at somewhat skewed or unbalanced, right?

 

[Ogrezilla]

But then the metrics by which you're making your comparisons can be viewed at somewhat skewed or unbalanced, right?

sure. What can you do? I'm also going to continue factoring in that we can do things like swap Rust, Horny, and Simon to different positions around the line-up and they can still be effective. If Sprong can't keep up with their 5v5 production with the Ducks, then I don't think he's enough better than they are at scoring to overcome everything outside of scoring that they are better than him at. Because I think we bcan oth agree that he needs to be a better scorer than them, not just as good.

 

[Ryder71]

sure. What can you do? I'm also going to continue factoring in that we can do things like swap Rust, Horny, and Simon to different positions around the line-up and they can still be effective. If Sprong can't keep up with their 5v5 production with the Ducks, then I don't think he's enough better than they are at scoring to overcome everything outside of scoring that they are better than him at. Because I think we bcan oth agree that he needs to be a better scorer than them, not just as good.

Again I'm not married to 5v5, I'm worried about total points in any capacity in dealing with a complimentary winger with good offensive acumen. And he has 11 points in 20 games, that's a 44 point pace. He's 21 and theres room for him to improve with and without the puck. Maybe he will, maybe not, but so far so good.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It tells he he's solid on the powerplay. His 5v5 points per 60 with the Ducks would rank him 12th on the Pens. You can factor in his powerplay production overall, but you shouldn't be factoring it in to where he would belong at 5v5.


Same issue. You are using his PP production to promote him up the 5v5 line-up.

I can factor it in as "benefit to the team". PP points count the same as any other points.

We have Kessel at LW because Simon has been good at RW. We have 3 RW's ahead of Sprong at 5v5 regardless of which of them is playing LW.

And again, Sprong being as good as them at production is not good enough. He needs to be better at producing to be as good as they are.

Do you see the inherent flaw in this argument? We have too many RWs...except when some of them play well when given the opportunity, in which case we can move some to LW.

Again, this is Sprong producing at ES with Henrique compared to the others producing with Crosby and Malkin. And he still ain't far off, even when the scope is narrowed - ad hoc - to that one way to generate goals.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Again I'm not married to 5v5, I'm worried about total points in any capacity in dealing with a complimentary winger with good offensive acumen. And he has 11 points in 20 games, that's a 44 point pace. He's 21 and theres room for him to improve with and without the puck. Maybe he will, maybe not, but so far so good.

so you'd be cool with playing him on the 4th line and the 2nd PP? Because that's what his play basically dictates. His powerplay points should have absolutely no impact on where he plays at 5v5.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I can factor it in as "benefit to the team". PP points count the same as any other points.

Sure. So play him exactly how we were; 4th liner with PP2 time.

Do you see the inherent flaw in this argument? We have too many RWs...except when some of them play well when given the opportunity, in which case we can move some to LW.

Do you not see that issue of too many RW's, so we traded a RW?

 

[Ryder71]

so you'd be cool with playing him on the 4th line and the 2nd PP? Because that's what his play basically dictates. His powerplay points should have absolutely no impact on where he plays at 5v5.

No, because if afforded bigger minutes with better players and with his skillset, it stands to reason his production would tend to increase.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Again, this is Sprong producing at ES with Henrique compared to the others producing with Crosby and Malkin. And he still ain't far off, even when the scope is narrowed - ad hoc - to that one way to generate goals.

Same as I said to Bingo. He needs to be a BETTER producer than our RW's because he's so one-dimensional. If he can't keep pace with them playing with the Ducks top 6, then I don't think he's a good enough offensive player to outweigh his negatives compared to our other options.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Sprong with a beauty tonight. 1+1.

Gonna grab my gasoline can and get outta Dodge now.

 

[Ogrezilla]

No, because if afforded bigger minutes with better players and with his skillset, it stands to reason his production would tend to increase.

which you also realize is true for Simon, Rust, and Horny, right? And they are all more rounded players who are scoring as much or more than Sprong is.

Look, I think Sprong is solid. But we had too many RW's, so we traded one.

 

[Jacob]

Sprong with a beauty tonight.

Gonna grab my gasoline can and get outta Dodge now.

Also an assist.. but it was on the PP so it doesn’t count.