CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor

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To review.....
I also am saddened for the PHX/ARI fans. They have endured sorrow and sorrow and sorrow. Emotionally, it has been nothing but a roller coaster, and that's sad, because without fans, no sports exist.

In retrospect, this ending was more or less assured the moment that Ellman and Moyes split the team away from the development in the West Valley. All of the problems in Glendale are because of a single fact: Like a lot of places, there isn't enough hockey-interested money in the Valley to support a team on its own, and there isn't enough to split it between the host city and the team to make both of them happy. So, either the host city loses big time (IA's lease), or the team loses big time....and those aren't situations that will last.

Tempe could have worked. The new location might have worked. But the possibility of each is what has driven the changes in Glendale with respect to their arena.....ie, everyone knows that 3 arenas in the Valley is one too many.

And, finally, Meruelo turns out to be exactly what all of his prior behavior indicated....a very predatory business man, and I don't blame any fans one bit for vowing not to support him even if he gets the team back (which I highly doubt will happen). I susupect that there will be further news come out that makes it difficult for him to completely finance his project (if he even bids on the land). And I suspect that such news will make it difficult for him to sell all the high valued seats for games should the arena get built anyway. It's going to be a bit like the last year of the North Stars in Minnesota, in which Norm Green was a pariah in the Twin Cities, and everyone hated him, and wouldn't support him.

Just my 2 thoughts. 15-20 years of a sad situation.
 
Market size comparison always make me laugh. We just seen the end of 16+ years saga created because most of the existing fans would understandably not drive a hour back and forth to see their team 41 nights a year. You want to talk market size you have to include driving distance in that equation. How many fans do you have less than an 30 minutes drive from the arena. That's the real numbers that matters when talking about the gate. When we talk about TV deals, and sponsors that where the total market matters the most, but even there you got to factor in general interest. You still have to be a hit at the gate to be a hit on TV and to be the hot thing for corporate dollars to flock to.

Market size is an indicator of growth potential. Not the only one, but one. There are lots of things that have to happen to make it work, but if you don’t have that growth potential you aren’t a good choice. SLC has the growth potential.
 
For those who weren't paying attention, CXLVIII is 148. 148 threads of this.

The first thread was titled: 12-08-2008 Hockey in The Desert (Phoenix franchise and finance/business matters). It's been almost 16 years now since the first thread was started on the relocation rumors. They even started to get creative with the titles here:

06-12-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VII: I'm just waitin' on a judge
06-16-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VIII: It's dead, Jim
06-24-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part IX: 'Dorf on Hockey
07-25-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part X: The Truth? You Can't Handle The Truth!
08-03-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XI: A Fistful of Dollars?
08-07-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More
08-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIII: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
08-21-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIV: The Wrath of Baum
08-27-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XV - SITREP: SNAFU
09-02-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVI: Barbarian at the Gate
09-08-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVII: Wake Me Up When September Ends
09-10-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVIII: Is that a pale horse in the distance?
09-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy Part XIX: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Baum
09-21-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XX: There Will Be Baum
09-28-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXI: 2009 -- A Sports Odyssey
10-26-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXII: Long and winding road
07-26-2010 Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis
08-27-2010 Part XI: Phoenix Coyotes -- Greetings, Starfighter, You have been selected ...
09-16-2010 Part XII: Phx Coyotes - Still haven't found what I'm looking for
10-12-2010 Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?
10-27-2010 Part XIV: Phoenix Coyotes - To Infinity And Beyond....
12-05-2010 Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore
12-14-2010 Part XVI: Phoenix -- Money for Nothing
12-20-2010 Part XVII: Phoenix -- Thread Title Available For Lease
01-09-2011 Part XVIII: Phoenix -- Imminence Front
01-24-2011 Phoenix XIXth: Nervous Breakdown
02-02-2011 Phoenix XX: Two weeks
02-11-2011 Phoenix XXI: When will then be now?
02-22-2011 Phoenix XXII: It's Now or Never
02-28-2011 Phoenix XXIII - Bond: The Phoenix Project
03-03-2011 Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?
03-07-2011 Phoenix XXV: Anyone in the theatre seen a pale horse?
03-08-2011 Phoenix XXVI: Pain in the AZ
03-11-2011 Phoenix XXVII: Can we all get along?
03-16-2011 Phoenix XXVIII: Lawyers, Bonds and Money
03-20-2011 Phoenix XXIX: What's the next act? I'm tired of the dog & pony show
03-22-2011 Phoenix Part XXX Hulz, you gotta get a gimmick if you want to get ahead
03-27-2011 Phoenix Part XXXI: I feel I'm in a time loop
04-05-2011 Phoenix Part XXXII: Bridge over Troubled Goldwater
04-14-2011 Phoenix XXXIII: Sound of Silence
04-20-2011 Phoenix XXXIV: Project Mayhem
04-25-2011 Phoenix XXXV: Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave...
05-03-2011 Phoenix XXXVI - There's got to be a morning after
05-10-2011 Phoenix XXXVII - The Heat is On
06-27-2011 Phoenix XXXVIII: Hulsizer Pulls Bid For Coyotes
08-16-2011 Phoenix XXXIX: You Never Give Me Your Money
10-18-2011 Phoenix XL: Rich Man's World
12-07-2011 Phoenix XLI: Bongo Fury
01-06-2012 Phoenix XLII: The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything
02-02-2012 Phoenix XLIII: How to Bake Cupcakes in Less Than Two Weeks
02-28-2012 Phoenix XLIV: Ignorance & Apathy (or I Doan't know & I Doan't Care)
03-28-2012 Phoenix XLV: You can't YANDLE the truth!
04-11-2012 Phoenix XLVI: (Tre)living on a prayer
04-21-2012 Phoenix XLVII: More Threads than Superbowls
05-01-2012 Phoenix XLVIII: Of Mice and Lieberman
05-08-2012 Phoenix XLIX: Smoke & Mirrors
05-21-2012 Phoenix L: AllByDesign?
05-30-2012 Phoenix LI: es, Damn Lies, and Arena Management Fees
06-06-2012 Phoenix LII: Goodnight, Sweet Lieberman
06-08-2012 Phoenix LIII: How the GWInch Stole Phoenix
06-12-2012 Phoenix LIV:E and Let Die
06-19-2012 Phoenix LV: is Has Left the Building
06-26-2012 Phoenix LVI: s is Still Dead (or Maybe Working at a 7-11 in Glendale)
07-04-2012 Phoenix LVII (or MDCCLXXVI): Declarations of (In)Dependence
07-13-2012 Phoenix LVIII; Will jobbing get jobbed?
07-30-2012 Phoenix LIX: The JIG is up?
08-18-2012 Phoenix LX: Pinocchio's Furniture
09-07-2012 Phoenix LXI; We agreed to pay HOW MUCH‽
09-26-2012 Phoenix LXII: Abandon Hope all Ye Who Enter Here
10-16-2012 Phoenix LXIII: Have Become, Comfortably Numb;
11-06-2012 Phoenix LXIV: Will You Still Need Me, Will You Still Read Me, on Thread LXIV?
11-21-2012 Phoenx LXV: The word is... give me a minute.... "Omnishambles"... "Omnishambles"
11-27-2012 Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI
12-18-2012 Phoenix LXVII: Route66 - Aftermath
01-15-2013 Phoenix LXVIII - "Watch out for that Tree"
01-25-2013 Phoenix LXIX: Thread of LXIX
01-30-2013 Phoenix LXX: Should they stay or should they go now?
02-01-2013 Phoenix LXXI: Daydream Belever
02-12-2013 Phoenix LXXII: Send in the Clowns
03-14-2013 Phoenix LXXIII: "This Space Available"
04-04-2013 Phoenix LXXIV: Be Seeing You
04-22-2013 Phoenix LXXV: It's Like Deja Vu All Over Again
05-02-3013 Phoenix LXXVI: Renaissance Men
05-13-2013 Phoenix LXXVII: Tired of Waiting For You
05-19-2013 Phoenix LXXVIII: Know When To Hold 'Em, Know When To Fold 'Em
05-25-2013 Phoenix LXXIX: This is The End, We Hope Not
05-29-2013 Phoenix LXXX: Is there another way out?
06-01-2013 Phoenix LXXXI: I'll Gladly Pay You Tuesday for Your Franchise Today!
06-08-2013 Phoenix LXXXII: "Waive Reading Beyond the Title"
06-12-2013 Phoenix LXXXIII: "Stuff's Gonna Happen"
06-14-2013 Phoenix LXXXIV: Planespotting Edition
06-16-2013 Phoenix LXXXV: A Bridge to Nowhere
06-20-2013 Phoenix LXXXVI: There's Always Money in the Banana Stand
etc.



I will say, 16 years is a long time to have gone through this "will they, won't they". There was a lot of animosity and mud slung between members, and credit to all the Coyotes fans who've stuck with this team in spite of everything that's gone against them. I was not a supporter of the carrying on the existing franchise, just too much baggage accrued over the years, but Arizona is a big market, and ice hockey can work anywhere in North America no matter the climate. I hope the market is given a chance in a future expansion round again.
 
Market size comparison always make me laugh. We just seen the end of 16+ years saga created because most of the existing fans would understandably not drive a hour back and forth to see their team 41 nights a year. You want to talk market size you have to include driving distance in that equation. How many fans do you have less than an 30 minutes drive from the arena. That's the real numbers that matters when talking about the gate. When we talk about TV deals, and sponsors that where the total market matters the most, but even there you got to factor in general interest.
Market size is also a weak measure of potential reach for the club. If market size were all that mattered, Phoenix should have succeeded, no?

Jerry Buss - who was then owner of the LA Kings - used to complain about attendance at his games. “Now I know why all those Canadians moved to California. They hate hockey.”

The point is you need a market ready for a hockey team. If you have a market where there’s 20 million people, but they all make $40k a year, or they’re all morally opposed to contact sports or they all just consider hockey to be the dumbest sport imaginable, you’re not going to succeed. I maintain that the market research going into Phoenix was poor and not enough was done to lay the groundwork for an NHL franchise.

A new market needs a healthy dose of rabid fans who will come no matter what, a healthy amount of bandwagon jumpers and a whole huge amount of people who might consider going to a game once in a while - a portion of whom will turn into rabid fans. I’m not convinced that Phoenix had enough of the last group, and the ownership did a bad job of turning those that did into rabid fans.
 
For those who weren't paying attention, CXLVIII is 148. 148 threads of this.

The first thread was titled: 12-08-2008 Hockey in The Desert (Phoenix franchise and finance/business matters). It's been almost 16 years now since the first thread was started on the relocation rumors. They even started to get creative with the titles here:

06-12-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VII: I'm just waitin' on a judge
06-16-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VIII: It's dead, Jim
06-24-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part IX: 'Dorf on Hockey
07-25-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part X: The Truth? You Can't Handle The Truth!
08-03-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XI: A Fistful of Dollars?
08-07-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More
08-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIII: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
08-21-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIV: The Wrath of Baum
08-27-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XV - SITREP: SNAFU
09-02-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVI: Barbarian at the Gate
09-08-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVII: Wake Me Up When September Ends
09-10-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVIII: Is that a pale horse in the distance?
09-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy Part XIX: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Baum
09-21-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XX: There Will Be Baum
09-28-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXI: 2009 -- A Sports Odyssey
10-26-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXII: Long and winding road
07-26-2010 Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis
08-27-2010 Part XI: Phoenix Coyotes -- Greetings, Starfighter, You have been selected ...
09-16-2010 Part XII: Phx Coyotes - Still haven't found what I'm looking for
10-12-2010 Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?
10-27-2010 Part XIV: Phoenix Coyotes - To Infinity And Beyond....
12-05-2010 Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore
12-14-2010 Part XVI: Phoenix -- Money for Nothing
12-20-2010 Part XVII: Phoenix -- Thread Title Available For Lease
01-09-2011 Part XVIII: Phoenix -- Imminence Front
01-24-2011 Phoenix XIXth: Nervous Breakdown
02-02-2011 Phoenix XX: Two weeks
02-11-2011 Phoenix XXI: When will then be now?
02-22-2011 Phoenix XXII: It's Now or Never
02-28-2011 Phoenix XXIII - Bond: The Phoenix Project
03-03-2011 Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?
03-07-2011 Phoenix XXV: Anyone in the theatre seen a pale horse?
03-08-2011 Phoenix XXVI: Pain in the AZ
03-11-2011 Phoenix XXVII: Can we all get along?
03-16-2011 Phoenix XXVIII: Lawyers, Bonds and Money
03-20-2011 Phoenix XXIX: What's the next act? I'm tired of the dog & pony show
03-22-2011 Phoenix Part XXX Hulz, you gotta get a gimmick if you want to get ahead
03-27-2011 Phoenix Part XXXI: I feel I'm in a time loop
04-05-2011 Phoenix Part XXXII: Bridge over Troubled Goldwater
04-14-2011 Phoenix XXXIII: Sound of Silence
04-20-2011 Phoenix XXXIV: Project Mayhem
04-25-2011 Phoenix XXXV: Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave...
05-03-2011 Phoenix XXXVI - There's got to be a morning after
05-10-2011 Phoenix XXXVII - The Heat is On
06-27-2011 Phoenix XXXVIII: Hulsizer Pulls Bid For Coyotes
08-16-2011 Phoenix XXXIX: You Never Give Me Your Money
10-18-2011 Phoenix XL: Rich Man's World
12-07-2011 Phoenix XLI: Bongo Fury
01-06-2012 Phoenix XLII: The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything
02-02-2012 Phoenix XLIII: How to Bake Cupcakes in Less Than Two Weeks
02-28-2012 Phoenix XLIV: Ignorance & Apathy (or I Doan't know & I Doan't Care)
03-28-2012 Phoenix XLV: You can't YANDLE the truth!
04-11-2012 Phoenix XLVI: (Tre)living on a prayer
04-21-2012 Phoenix XLVII: More Threads than Superbowls
05-01-2012 Phoenix XLVIII: Of Mice and Lieberman
05-08-2012 Phoenix XLIX: Smoke & Mirrors
05-21-2012 Phoenix L: AllByDesign?
05-30-2012 Phoenix LI: es, Damn Lies, and Arena Management Fees
06-06-2012 Phoenix LII: Goodnight, Sweet Lieberman
06-08-2012 Phoenix LIII: How the GWInch Stole Phoenix
06-12-2012 Phoenix LIV:E and Let Die
06-19-2012 Phoenix LV: is Has Left the Building
06-26-2012 Phoenix LVI: s is Still Dead (or Maybe Working at a 7-11 in Glendale)
07-04-2012 Phoenix LVII (or MDCCLXXVI): Declarations of (In)Dependence
07-13-2012 Phoenix LVIII; Will jobbing get jobbed?
07-30-2012 Phoenix LIX: The JIG is up?
08-18-2012 Phoenix LX: Pinocchio's Furniture
09-07-2012 Phoenix LXI; We agreed to pay HOW MUCH‽
09-26-2012 Phoenix LXII: Abandon Hope all Ye Who Enter Here
10-16-2012 Phoenix LXIII: Have Become, Comfortably Numb;
11-06-2012 Phoenix LXIV: Will You Still Need Me, Will You Still Read Me, on Thread LXIV?
11-21-2012 Phoenx LXV: The word is... give me a minute.... "Omnishambles"... "Omnishambles"
11-27-2012 Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI
12-18-2012 Phoenix LXVII: Route66 - Aftermath
01-15-2013 Phoenix LXVIII - "Watch out for that Tree"
01-25-2013 Phoenix LXIX: Thread of LXIX
01-30-2013 Phoenix LXX: Should they stay or should they go now?
02-01-2013 Phoenix LXXI: Daydream Belever
02-12-2013 Phoenix LXXII: Send in the Clowns
03-14-2013 Phoenix LXXIII: "This Space Available"
04-04-2013 Phoenix LXXIV: Be Seeing You
04-22-2013 Phoenix LXXV: It's Like Deja Vu All Over Again
05-02-3013 Phoenix LXXVI: Renaissance Men
05-13-2013 Phoenix LXXVII: Tired of Waiting For You
05-19-2013 Phoenix LXXVIII: Know When To Hold 'Em, Know When To Fold 'Em
05-25-2013 Phoenix LXXIX: This is The End, We Hope Not
05-29-2013 Phoenix LXXX: Is there another way out?
06-01-2013 Phoenix LXXXI: I'll Gladly Pay You Tuesday for Your Franchise Today!
06-08-2013 Phoenix LXXXII: "Waive Reading Beyond the Title"
06-12-2013 Phoenix LXXXIII: "Stuff's Gonna Happen"
06-14-2013 Phoenix LXXXIV: Planespotting Edition
06-16-2013 Phoenix LXXXV: A Bridge to Nowhere
06-20-2013 Phoenix LXXXVI: There's Always Money in the Banana Stand
etc.



I will say, 16 years is a long time to have gone through this "will they, won't they". There was a lot of animosity and mud slung between members, and credit to all the Coyotes fans who've stuck with this team in spite of everything that's gone against them. I was not a supporter of the carrying on the existing franchise, just too much baggage accrued over the years, but Arizona is a big market, and ice hockey can work anywhere in North America no matter the climate. I hope the market is given a chance in a future expansion round again.

Yoiks!! The ghost of @kdb209 returns!!

:laugh:
 
The big issue for the NHL in several markets that are no-brainers for other sports has always been ownership. Like nobody wants an NHL team in Phoenix, nobody wanted one in Atlanta, nobody has historically wanted one in Houston. It's a serious issue for the league because even when they find one dude who does want the team either they're insufficiently resourced for the job or there's nobody waiting in the wings to keep the team.
In Atlanta, it's not that no one wanted the team. It's that no one was going to pay Atlanta Spirit's predatory lease agreement to keep them playing in Philips Arena. That's why the half-assed search for local owners failed. Atlanta Spirit not only didn't want the team, they didn't want the team to exist in this market, because they saw the team as directly competing against the Atlanta Hawks.

Presently, there are at least two groups seeking an expansion franchise and build an arena, one of who attempted to purchase the Thrashers in 2011.

The point is, it's incredibly easy to be on the outside looking in and make a guess as to what happened. It's a lot harder to ask questions and look deeper into what actually happened, because that means coming to realize that snap judgment is incorrect.

Now, I don't know nearly as much about Phoenix, but I can promise you that story will be just as interesting and terrible as Atlanta's story was, if not moreso.
 
To review.....
I also am saddened for the PHX/ARI fans. They have endured sorrow and sorrow and sorrow. Emotionally, it has been nothing but a roller coaster, and that's sad, because without fans, no sports exist.

In retrospect, this ending was more or less assured the moment that Ellman and Moyes split the team away from the development in the West Valley. All of the problems in Glendale are because of a single fact: Like a lot of places, there isn't enough hockey-interested money in the Valley to support a team on its own, and there isn't enough to split it between the host city and the team to make both of them happy. So, either the host city loses big time (IA's lease), or the team loses big time....and those aren't situations that will last.

Tempe could have worked. The new location might have worked. But the possibility of each is what has driven the changes in Glendale with respect to their arena.....ie, everyone knows that 3 arenas in the Valley is one too many.

And, finally, Meruelo turns out to be exactly what all of his prior behavior indicated....a very predatory business man, and I don't blame any fans one bit for vowing not to support him even if he gets the team back (which I highly doubt will happen). I susupect that there will be further news come out that makes it difficult for him to completely finance his project (if he even bids on the land). And I suspect that such news will make it difficult for him to sell all the high valued seats for games should the arena get built anyway. It's going to be a bit like the last year of the North Stars in Minnesota, in which Norm Green was a pariah in the Twin Cities, and everyone hated him, and wouldn't support him.

Just my 2 thoughts. 15-20 years of a sad situation.
Meruelo sounds like a piece of Work
 
Market size is also a weak measure of potential reach for the club. If market size were all that mattered, Phoenix should have succeeded, no?

Jerry Buss - who was then owner of the LA Kings - used to complain about attendance at his games. “Now I know why all those Canadians moved to California. They hate hockey.”

The point is you need a market ready for a hockey team. If you have a market where there’s 20 million people, but they all make $40k a year, or they’re all morally opposed to contact sports or they all just consider hockey to be the dumbest sport imaginable, you’re not going to succeed. I maintain that the market research going into Phoenix was poor and not enough was done to lay the groundwork for an NHL franchise.

A new market needs a healthy dose of rabid fans who will come no matter what, a healthy amount of bandwagon jumpers and a whole huge amount of people who might consider going to a game once in a while - a portion of whom will turn into rabid fans. I’m not convinced that Phoenix had enough of the last group, and the ownership did a bad job of turning those that did into rabid fans.

Literally no one says “market size is all you need”

It’s one component of the equation which also includes arena, ownership, corporate presence, marketing, and other things.
 
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I will say, 16 years is a long time to have gone through this "will they, won't they". There was a lot of animosity and mud slung between members, and credit to all the Coyotes fans who've stuck with this team in spite of everything that's gone against them. I was not a supporter of the carrying on the existing franchise, just too much baggage accrued over the years, but Arizona is a big market, and ice hockey can work anywhere in North America no matter the climate. I hope the market is given a chance in a future expansion round again.

I do feel bad as well for the fans. But that's tempered somewhat by their entitled attitude towards Glendale, which did more than anyone in the valley (to the tune of $100s of millions) to try to keep the team, and if Bettman / Meruelo had just worked with them reasonably the team would still be there.

Also, the treatment of Katie Strang, who was just doing her job. I'm sure she'll be fine as she's broken much bigger stories but Coyotes fans shouldn't have responded with the hate they did. I get that someone coming from outside saying these things is hard to deal with but if local media actually did their jobs her stories would not have been necessary. It's the unaccountability for the people running this franchise that has lead us here today, not the small amount of daylight that she brought with her stories.
 
In the two years since it started operation, Saharabets has yet to become remotely profitable.

He's been losing cash on it consistently.

full
 
In retrospect, this ending was more or less assured the moment that Ellman and Moyes split the team away from the development in the West Valley. All of the problems in Glendale are because of a single fact: Like a lot of places, there isn't enough hockey-interested money in the Valley to support a team on its own, and there isn't enough to split it between the host city and the team to make both of them happy. So, either the host city loses big time (IA's lease), or the team loses big time....and those aren't situations that will last.

That may have been true a decade ago but it isn't any longer. Teams in the sun belt are doing just fine. Forbes has every single team cash flow positive, and they generally underestimate things. That doesn't also account for the vast increases in franchise values across the board.

I'll give Bettman some grudging credit: aside from Phoenix, his sun belt strategy has been a success. It took two lockouts for that to happen but there is competitive parity and top to bottom the teams are thriving.
 
That may have been true a decade ago but it isn't any longer. Teams in the sun belt are doing just fine. Forbes has every single team cash flow positive, and they generally underestimate things. That doesn't also account for the vast increases in franchise values across the board.

I'll give Bettman some grudging credit: aside from Phoenix, his sun belt strategy has been a success. It took two lockouts for that to happen but there is competitive parity and top to bottom the teams are thriving.

Ernie,
I have no idea how you can say this. There is all kinds of data about money losses for the Yotes, and all kinds of data about the arena in Glendale losing money. I'm not talking about Dallas, Vegas, or any other Sun Belt city. I'm simply talking empirically about the Valley. The team and Glendale were both losing money. To suggest that they weren't is to ignore the data.

Now, maybe you are saying.......yes, but it was possible that it could have been different. I won't agree or disagree with that. We will never know. The reality of Glendale, and thus of the entire Valley, is that there wasn't enough interested money to please both the Yotes and the host city. Maybe a lot of the history went into that.

It is not to say that hockey can't work. It's to say that, once Ellman and Moyes split up, there was no way to make it work for the Yotes.


As another question, try this:
What are the arena numbers in Dallas? What's the lease? How much do the Stars and Mavs get from managing the place. How busy is it? Does the arena itself make money after the 2 teams get their take?

Then, compare to Glendale.
 
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For those who weren't paying attention, CXLVIII is 148. 148 threads of this.

The first thread was titled: 12-08-2008 Hockey in The Desert (Phoenix franchise and finance/business matters). It's been almost 16 years now since the first thread was started on the relocation rumors. They even started to get creative with the titles here:

06-12-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VII: I'm just waitin' on a judge
06-16-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VIII: It's dead, Jim
06-24-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part IX: 'Dorf on Hockey
07-25-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part X: The Truth? You Can't Handle The Truth!
08-03-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XI: A Fistful of Dollars?
08-07-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More
08-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIII: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
08-21-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIV: The Wrath of Baum
08-27-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XV - SITREP: SNAFU
09-02-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVI: Barbarian at the Gate
09-08-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVII: Wake Me Up When September Ends
09-10-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVIII: Is that a pale horse in the distance?
09-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy Part XIX: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Baum
09-21-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XX: There Will Be Baum
09-28-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXI: 2009 -- A Sports Odyssey
10-26-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXII: Long and winding road
07-26-2010 Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis
08-27-2010 Part XI: Phoenix Coyotes -- Greetings, Starfighter, You have been selected ...
09-16-2010 Part XII: Phx Coyotes - Still haven't found what I'm looking for
10-12-2010 Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?
10-27-2010 Part XIV: Phoenix Coyotes - To Infinity And Beyond....
12-05-2010 Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore
12-14-2010 Part XVI: Phoenix -- Money for Nothing
12-20-2010 Part XVII: Phoenix -- Thread Title Available For Lease
01-09-2011 Part XVIII: Phoenix -- Imminence Front
01-24-2011 Phoenix XIXth: Nervous Breakdown
02-02-2011 Phoenix XX: Two weeks
02-11-2011 Phoenix XXI: When will then be now?
02-22-2011 Phoenix XXII: It's Now or Never
02-28-2011 Phoenix XXIII - Bond: The Phoenix Project
03-03-2011 Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?
03-07-2011 Phoenix XXV: Anyone in the theatre seen a pale horse?
03-08-2011 Phoenix XXVI: Pain in the AZ
03-11-2011 Phoenix XXVII: Can we all get along?
03-16-2011 Phoenix XXVIII: Lawyers, Bonds and Money
03-20-2011 Phoenix XXIX: What's the next act? I'm tired of the dog & pony show
03-22-2011 Phoenix Part XXX Hulz, you gotta get a gimmick if you want to get ahead
03-27-2011 Phoenix Part XXXI: I feel I'm in a time loop
04-05-2011 Phoenix Part XXXII: Bridge over Troubled Goldwater
04-14-2011 Phoenix XXXIII: Sound of Silence
04-20-2011 Phoenix XXXIV: Project Mayhem
04-25-2011 Phoenix XXXV: Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave...
05-03-2011 Phoenix XXXVI - There's got to be a morning after
05-10-2011 Phoenix XXXVII - The Heat is On
06-27-2011 Phoenix XXXVIII: Hulsizer Pulls Bid For Coyotes
08-16-2011 Phoenix XXXIX: You Never Give Me Your Money
10-18-2011 Phoenix XL: Rich Man's World
12-07-2011 Phoenix XLI: Bongo Fury
01-06-2012 Phoenix XLII: The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything
02-02-2012 Phoenix XLIII: How to Bake Cupcakes in Less Than Two Weeks
02-28-2012 Phoenix XLIV: Ignorance & Apathy (or I Doan't know & I Doan't Care)
03-28-2012 Phoenix XLV: You can't YANDLE the truth!
04-11-2012 Phoenix XLVI: (Tre)living on a prayer
04-21-2012 Phoenix XLVII: More Threads than Superbowls
05-01-2012 Phoenix XLVIII: Of Mice and Lieberman
05-08-2012 Phoenix XLIX: Smoke & Mirrors
05-21-2012 Phoenix L: AllByDesign?
05-30-2012 Phoenix LI: es, Damn Lies, and Arena Management Fees
06-06-2012 Phoenix LII: Goodnight, Sweet Lieberman
06-08-2012 Phoenix LIII: How the GWInch Stole Phoenix
06-12-2012 Phoenix LIV:E and Let Die
06-19-2012 Phoenix LV: is Has Left the Building
06-26-2012 Phoenix LVI: s is Still Dead (or Maybe Working at a 7-11 in Glendale)
07-04-2012 Phoenix LVII (or MDCCLXXVI): Declarations of (In)Dependence
07-13-2012 Phoenix LVIII; Will jobbing get jobbed?
07-30-2012 Phoenix LIX: The JIG is up?
08-18-2012 Phoenix LX: Pinocchio's Furniture
09-07-2012 Phoenix LXI; We agreed to pay HOW MUCH‽
09-26-2012 Phoenix LXII: Abandon Hope all Ye Who Enter Here
10-16-2012 Phoenix LXIII: Have Become, Comfortably Numb;
11-06-2012 Phoenix LXIV: Will You Still Need Me, Will You Still Read Me, on Thread LXIV?
11-21-2012 Phoenx LXV: The word is... give me a minute.... "Omnishambles"... "Omnishambles"
11-27-2012 Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI
12-18-2012 Phoenix LXVII: Route66 - Aftermath
01-15-2013 Phoenix LXVIII - "Watch out for that Tree"
01-25-2013 Phoenix LXIX: Thread of LXIX
01-30-2013 Phoenix LXX: Should they stay or should they go now?
02-01-2013 Phoenix LXXI: Daydream Belever
02-12-2013 Phoenix LXXII: Send in the Clowns
03-14-2013 Phoenix LXXIII: "This Space Available"
04-04-2013 Phoenix LXXIV: Be Seeing You
04-22-2013 Phoenix LXXV: It's Like Deja Vu All Over Again
05-02-3013 Phoenix LXXVI: Renaissance Men
05-13-2013 Phoenix LXXVII: Tired of Waiting For You
05-19-2013 Phoenix LXXVIII: Know When To Hold 'Em, Know When To Fold 'Em
05-25-2013 Phoenix LXXIX: This is The End, We Hope Not
05-29-2013 Phoenix LXXX: Is there another way out?
06-01-2013 Phoenix LXXXI: I'll Gladly Pay You Tuesday for Your Franchise Today!
06-08-2013 Phoenix LXXXII: "Waive Reading Beyond the Title"
06-12-2013 Phoenix LXXXIII: "Stuff's Gonna Happen"
06-14-2013 Phoenix LXXXIV: Planespotting Edition
06-16-2013 Phoenix LXXXV: A Bridge to Nowhere
06-20-2013 Phoenix LXXXVI: There's Always Money in the Banana Stand
etc.



I will say, 16 years is a long time to have gone through this "will they, won't they". There was a lot of animosity and mud slung between members, and credit to all the Coyotes fans who've stuck with this team in spite of everything that's gone against them. I was not a supporter of the carrying on the existing franchise, just too much baggage accrued over the years, but Arizona is a big market, and ice hockey can work anywhere in North America no matter the climate. I hope the market is given a chance in a future expansion round again.
That was a long and strange fortnight.
 
Guarantee you that Winnipeg’s ownership has more money AND spades than Atlanta does.

They gonna self-sponsor? You know what I mean.

Home Depot, UPS, Delta, Coke, Aflac, Waffle House, Chick-Fil-A, Cox, Arbys, Newell, Norfolk Southern, NCR, Equifax, Carters, Global Payments, etc. Those HQs are right down the highway from the Krause arena. Some or most of those companies are going to sponsor them as they do with all the other pro teams in town.

Winnipeg doesn't have that, neither does Vancouver or Calgary. Hell, Toronto and Montreal don't even have that.
 
Ernie,
I have no idea how you can say this. There is all kinds of data about money losses for the Yotes, and all kinds of data about the arena in Glendale losing money. I'm not talking about Dallas, Vegas, or any other Sun Belt city. I'm simply talking empirically about the Valley. The team and Glendale were both losing money. To suggest that they weren't is to ignore the data.

Now, maybe you are saying.......yes, but it was possible that it could have been different. I won't agree or disagree with that. We will never know. The reality of Glendale, and thus of the entire Valley, is that there wasn't enough interested money to please both the Yotes and the host city. Maybe a lot of the history went into that.

It is not to say that hockey can't work. It's to say that, once Ellman and Moyes split up, there was no way to make it work for the Yotes.


As another question, try this:
What are the arena numbers in Dallas? What's the lease? How much do the Stars and Mavs get from managing the place. How busy is it? Does the arena itself make money after the 2 teams get their take?

Then, compare to Glendale.

The two best comparables in terms of arena situation are the Hurricanes and the Panthers. The major difference between the situations is the ability of ownership to make things work. That's it.

Before the last lockout, the fundamental economics of the bottom 10-15 franchises in the league just didn't work. That has changed for everyone except the Coyotes, who, being in one of the largest markets in the USA should have been able to benefit tremendously.
 
Just a quick... Thought. Regardless of personal CITY feelings.

Since 1996 season, until 2022/23? (Correct me if I am wrong please.) The team has never made a profit. Is that accurate??
 
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The only other potential NHL market in Canada IMO is QC, and this particular NHL BoG very obviously does not want to be there. There's no point in whining about "Canada not getting an NHL team" because there's really no appealing market outside of QC -

Oh, and of course a second team in the GTA - I'm actually sure the NHL would love a second GTA team, but the payout to the leafs/MLSE makes this all but impossible. The only way it's happening is if the Rogers/Bell MLSE alliance falls, and as part of that fallout there's an agreement to allow a second team in the area.

Personally, I'd love for someone to take a crack at a Maritime team, but that ain't happening - They can't even get their shit together for a CFL team, and that league would LOVE to get to 10 teams.

Victoria - no chance

Alberta - no chance of a third team there

Saskatchewan - 1 per cent chance if the relocation dominos fell PERFECTLY

Then you're into the ONT-QUE-Maritime sequence that I already commented on.

When it comes to involvement in new Canadian markets Bettman wants Nunavut.
 
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