CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[TheLegend]

The funny thing is that Glendale would be seen as the obvious option if Bettman / Meruelo hadn't thoroughly burned their bridges there. But who knows, maybe another owner might make some headway...

But at this time all signs point to SLC.

Glendale was never an option once Ellman and Moyes split the Coyotes off from Westgate.

That would be like TNSE splitting the Jets off from all of their holdings and letting them go on their own.

Why are people buying into the whole local ownership bullshit again? Are you really that naive?

I’m not. It’s just a rumor.

 

[Ernie]

Glendale was never an option once Ellman and Moyes split the Coyotes off from Westgate.

That would be like TNSE splitting the Jets off from all of their holdings and letting them go on their own.

This is just some bullcrap that Coyotes fans have swallowed hook and sinker.

There are tons of franchises that don't own surrounding real estate developments. Florida is a great example of how a local government owned facility and a team can work together even when the arena isn't centrally located.

The acquiescence of Coyotes fans to every line that comes out of Bettman's mouth is about to cost those fans their team, and they have only themselves to blame.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

This is just some bullcrap that Coyotes fans have swallowed hook and sinker.

There are tons of franchises that don't own surrounding real estate developments. Florida is a great example of how a local government owned facility and a team can work together even when the arena isn't centrally located.

The acquiescence of Coyotes fans to every line that comes out of Bettman's mouth is about to cost those fans their team, and they have only themselves to blame.

That is...That is certainly a take.

I mean they might or might not lose their team but...Jesus Christ man, I don't even know what to say about that bolded section.

 

[Ernie]

That is...That is certainly a take.

I mean they might or might not lose their team but...Jesus Christ man, I don't even know what to say about that bolded section.

You must be new here.

Bettman and whoever the latest flavour of owner is have gone from one blunder to another over the last decade and a half and you'll never hear a peep of criticism coming from the fans of the team. The latest owner is a certified dirtbag and yet the fans are still 100% behind him.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

You must be new here.

Bettman and whoever the latest flavour of owner is have gone from one blunder to another over the last decade and a half and you'll never hear a peep of criticism coming from the fans of the team. The latest owner is a certified dirtbag and yet the fans are still 100% behind him.

I mean, I originally date from 2005 so I'm not new.

As for the fans supporting AM, what is their alternative? Until no one else comes forward and buys the team who else can they support? They're not going to root for someone that is going to relocate their team, and I'm sure they know in their hearts that the NHL is a bunch of grifters but they have no choice but to hope at this point because the team is running out of lives. AM doesn't appear to care much about their team, he's just using them as part of a real estate deal, but no one has come forward with the type of offer you described in the Florida situation above so until that person comes along they either plug their nose and root for Meruelo or...again what is the alternative?

 

[Ernie]

I mean, I originally date from 2005 so I'm not new.

As for the fans supporting AM, what is their alternative? Until no one else comes forward and buys the team who else can they support? They're not going to root for someone that is going to relocate their team, and I'm sure they know in their hearts that the NHL is a bunch of grifters but they have no choice but to hope at this point because the team is running out of lives. AM doesn't appear to care much about their team, he's just using them as part of a real estate deal, but no one has come forward with the type of offer you described in the Florida situation above so until that person comes along they either plug their nose and root for Meruelo or...again what is the alternative?

The problem is they've parroted every new line along the way. If they'd been more critical of the shenanigans going on, particularly with Meruelo, they could have forced the league to bring in decent ownership. If you were a regular on this forum, I guarantee you would be shocked at the levels of ridiculousness that has been taken at face value by the fans here.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I am profoundly uninterested at this point in talking about the fanbase in Phoenix.

The fact this team has any supporters is a goddamn miracle after what they've been through.

 

[TheLegend]

This is just some bullcrap that Coyotes fans have swallowed hook and sinker.

There are tons of franchises that don't own surrounding real estate developments. Florida is a great example of how a local government owned facility and a team can work together even when the arena isn't centrally located.

The acquiescence of Coyotes fans to every line that comes out of Bettman's mouth is about to cost those fans their team, and they have only themselves to blame.

No…. It’s what went down.

Really don’t care if you want to believe it or not. It’s been discussed ad nauseam in this megathread for over a decade.

And bringing up the same old tired narratives doesn’t change it things.

 

[Ernie]

No…. It’s what went down.

Really don’t care if you want to believe it or not. It’s been discussed ad nauseam in this megathread for over a decade.

And bringing up the same old tired narratives doesn’t change it things.

OK, you tell me then: if it's not the market, who's fault is the imminent departure of the team?

 

[LPHabsFan]

Honestly?

Sale to local ownership
Relocate to SLC
Trust Land Purchase

That’s my 3 for my batting order, or my believability list

I said it 6 years ago on here. The only way the Coyotes can survive and stay in the Valley is if the Phoenix Suns ownership (then Sarver) would buy them and bring them underneath the roof of Footprint

I can buy into Ishiba being an interested party or part of a group. Barkley? Wouldn’t be shocked either.

It’s either this or Utah man

But why though? Here's the question though that nobody has answered. Where is the money in keeping the team in Arizona?

At least with the ED talk you could say that down the line the team might be profitable and if not there's tons of real estate that could potentially turn a profit.

For the leagues perspective, if they've been doing what I feel they've been doing in covering the losses they could point the actual losses being 50% due to HRR and can make it up with expansion.

But even if Ishiba buys it and he now gets 41+ more dates at Footprint, do we think the team is going to start selling out and/or have tickets at NHL level prices? I mean there could be certain scenarios whereby they might lose less money but the franchise is still a money pit in the region.

 

[awfulwaffle]

This is just some bullcrap that Coyotes fans have swallowed hook and sinker.

There are tons of franchises that don't own surrounding real estate developments. Florida is a great example of how a local government owned facility and a team can work together even when the arena isn't centrally located.

The acquiescence of Coyotes fans to every line that comes out of Bettman's mouth is about to cost those fans their team, and they have only themselves to blame.

You are arguing AGAINST what you argue for. Panthers have a sweetheart lease deal being paid by tax dollars, on top of the revenue they get for games. Give me a break with your comparison.

 

[Llama19]

The Arizona Coyotes are on the hunt for a new home. Here's what you need to know

To quote:

"What is the process for buying state land?

Think of the Arizona State Land Department as the landlord or current owner. Anyone who wants to buy state land must do due diligence on the property, according to a land spokesperson Lynn Córdova, which can include an environmental, cultural and title review.

The land must be appraised. That appraisal must go before the department's Board of Appeals, which signs off on the appraisal amount, according to the department. Applications say department Commissioner Robyn Sahid must also approve of a sale.

Then the land department prepares an auction notice, which must be advertised for at least 10 weeks in two media organizations, before the public bidding begins.

Where do the Coyotes stand?

The Coyotes' application was first filed in June by the law firm Fennemore Craig, but in January was updated in the name of Miracle Development LLC. Using the 12-month timeframe outlined by the department, that means any public auction could still be multiple months away.

Córdova confirmed on Feb. 6 the appraisal is still in process. The appraisal has not yet been filed or reviewed by the department, meaning a hearing before the board cannot take place."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2024/02/07/arizona-coyotes-new-arena-search-what-you-need-to-know/72496105007/

 

[awfulwaffle]

But why though? Here's the question though that nobody has answered. Where is the money in keeping the team in Arizona?

At least with the ED talk you could say that down the line the team might be profitable and if not there's tons of real estate that could potentially turn a profit.

For the leagues perspective, if they've been doing what I feel they've been doing in covering the losses they could point the actual losses being 50% due to HRR and can make it up with expansion.

But even if Ishiba buys it and he now gets 41+ more dates at Footprint, do we think the team is going to start selling out and/or have tickets at NHL level prices? I mean there could be certain scenarios whereby they might lose less money but the franchise is still a money pit in the region.

Who cares? That's up for the owner to decide.

 

[LPHabsFan]

Who cares? That's up for the owner to decide.

If everything is up to the owner, the league, players, whoever, then stay off any DISCUSSION boards since you're not involved in the situation and therefore have no business commenting on or questioning anything.

 

[BMN]

You are arguing AGAINST what you argue for. Panthers have a sweetheart lease deal being paid by tax dollars, on top of the revenue they get for games. Give me a break with your comparison.

I think you're missing what @Ernie is "arguing for." I don't think he's saying market good/bad based on the subsidies they need. He's instead saying "Phoenix fans should be more skeptical of something that is either unlikely to happen or last." Whether or not the FL deal is a sweetheart lease or not (spoiler: it is), it is clearly an ongoing thing FL fans can believe in that isn't going anywhere any time soon. They have no reason to believe that lease is going anywhere.

For e.g. when the flimsy IceArizona/LeBlanc group came along, I knew it wouldn't last. The moment I heard "but if x million is lost over __ years.....," I recognized "There it is! There's the out clause....they know there's a good chance they'll lose that much and they want an escape parachute." But I wasn't "rooting" for anything anymore than I "root" for the Florida lease to "work out;" I just knew a flimsy deal when I saw one (the fact they were asking the league to loan them half the money didn't help either...).

Now...whether or not most Arizona fans are as naive as Ernie suggests here....that's a whole other argument I'm not touching with a ten foot pole.

 

[ponder719]

Wild idea:

Ibisha buys the Coyotes, Smith pays an expansion fee. The Coyotes move to Salt Lake with a rebrand, owned by Smith. While Ibisha gets a new arena deal for the Suns and Coyotes to stay downtown (probably on the site of Chase Field, with the DBacks looking for a new stadium).

When the arena is done, the Coyotes return as an expansion team, with the Atlanta Thrashers.

Everyone wins.


Also, for the life of me, I can't figure out why the Coyotes don't offset the lack of seats in Mullett by playing their home games against Chicago, Minnesota and NY Rangers at Chase Field.

If Ishbia (or a consortium with him as a significant partner, if he wants a stake but not to be the sole owner) is interested in the Coyotes, then pulling a Browns makes a fair bit of sense to me. Ishbia can enter negotiations with the promise of an additional major tenant locked in, while not having to pay expenses on the team until they're out of Footprint, Smith gets what he wants immediately, and Meruelo can probably finagle a minority stake in the team, either in Utah or Arizona, whichever makes sense, so he's not entirely out of the game if he doesn't want to be.

All of this falls apart if he's not interested, of course, but then we're still where we were two weeks ago, and will likely be two weeks hence.

 

[Major4Boarding]

But why though? Here's the question though that nobody has answered. Where is the money in keeping the team in Arizona?

At least with the ED talk you could say that down the line the team might be profitable and if not there's tons of real estate that could potentially turn a profit.

For the leagues perspective, if they've been doing what I feel they've been doing in covering the losses they could point the actual losses being 50% due to HRR and can make it up with expansion.

But even if Ishiba buys it and he now gets 41+ more dates at Footprint, do we think the team is going to start selling out and/or have tickets at NHL level prices? I mean there could be certain scenarios whereby they might lose less money but the franchise is still a money pit in the region.

Not arguing that. However, it could very well end up being (somewhat) similar to the Panthers and Sunrise, where the tenant is the loss-leader.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Not arguing that. However, it could very well end up being (somewhat) similar to the Panthers and Sunrise, where the tenant is the loss-leader.

That's exactly what it would be. The team has proven for 3 decades they are incapable of surviving without serious money losses. They either need a subsidy or to be part of an entertainment district to be viable.

 

[aqib]

Not arguing that. However, it could very well end up being (somewhat) similar to the Panthers and Sunrise, where the tenant is the loss-leader.

Loss leader for what? Didn't the team give back the development rights when they redid their lease a few years ago?

 

[Major4Boarding]

Loss leader for what? Didn't the team give back the development rights when they redid their lease a few years ago?

Panthers still control the Arena Management aspects of Amerant Bank Arena. They either break even or are net-positive off of concerts. Attached is a partial window into what that looks like

 

[Ernie]

You are arguing AGAINST what you argue for. Panthers have a sweetheart lease deal being paid by tax dollars, on top of the revenue they get for games. Give me a break with your comparison.

They were paid (on average) $6.6m per year - a similar amount to what Glendale paid to have ASM manage their arena. Those payments were heavily tilted upfront but secured by a letter of credit where the county would get all their money back plus some more if the team bailed. I believe that everything was funded through a hotel tax that the local tourism industry openly agreed with.

Here's a summary of the deal:

If they could go back in time, neither Glendale nor Broward would build those arenas. Tempe narrowly avoided the same fate, despite all the shameless clamouring from Coyotes fans. What this deal represents is making the best of a bad situation and working collaboratively together out in the open - the absolute opposite of the way that things have gone down with the Coyotes.

 

[GKJ]

Ok, now relocation may seem to be the betting favorite. If there's a local group, they've been doing everything in the dark.

 

[LPHabsFan]

Hah!

 

[GindyDraws]

Ultimately it is better for the NHL to find a solution in Arizona than it is to move them. They really need to stay there if we want hockey to have any impact in the desert .

Which team has had the bigger impact? The team that stumbled around for 30 years like a homeless alcoholic, or the team that won a Stanley Cup in 5? And I don't even like Vegas.

I get the "we need hockey in Arizona" argument, but... It's the Coyotes, arguably the most incompetent organization in the league. At some point, you gotta cut them loose and become someone else's problem.

 

[TheLegend]

I think you're missing what @Ernie is "arguing for." I don't think he's saying market good/bad based on the subsidies they need. He's instead saying "Phoenix fans should be more skeptical of something that is either unlikely to happen or last." Whether or not the FL deal is a sweetheart lease or not (spoiler: it is), it is clearly an ongoing thing FL fans can believe in that isn't going anywhere any time soon. They have no reason to believe that lease is going anywhere.

For e.g. when the flimsy IceArizona/LeBlanc group came along, I knew it wouldn't last. The moment I heard "but if x million is lost over __ years.....," I recognized "There it is! There's the out clause....they know there's a good chance they'll lose that much and they want an escape parachute." But I wasn't "rooting" for anything anymore than I "root" for the Florida lease to "work out;" I just knew a flimsy deal when I saw one (the fact they were asking the league to loan them half the money didn't help either...).

Now...whether or not most Arizona fans are as naive as Ernie suggests here....that's a whole other argument I'm not touching with a ten foot pole.

We aren’t naive.

Not by a long shot.

Just getting fed up with all the “experts” from all sides.