CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[Shwan]

Unfortunately it speaks volumes about Mureulo himself for him to choose someone so obviously disingenuous & transparent as XG to be the face of the franchise.

Well 10 years ago the two did try to brazenly short Donald Trump and Carl Icahn on one of their casinos and Icahn decided the hotel was better off closed down than part of the Meruelo group.

XG is AM's business ride-or-die it would seem.

 

[oldunclehue]

Hopeful that they get something in place sooner than later, but I apologize if Iam quite behind on this. But what was the cost of the land in Tempe? Was Tempe not giving him the land for super cheap based around him paying for the clean up?

If he has to pay $50-$100 million just to buy the land, plus a few more million for the studies, thats without a shovel going in the dirt. What are we looking at all in for this project and does he have the capital long term to build a multi billion dollar entertainment district all on private funding? Seems quite risky!

 

[Stumbledore]

Always a puzzle when a seemingly intelligent man is duped by bs.

Seemingly intelligent men duped by bs was a major source of income for me. You'd be surprised at how often it happens. And the more successful and/or intelligent the man, the easier it was for him to be duped.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Seemingly intelligent men duped by bs was a major source of income for me. You'd be surprised at how often it happens. And the more successful and/or intelligent the man, the easier it was for him to be duped.

Yeah, but still a puzzle - LOL

Hopeful that they get something in place sooner than later, but I apologize if Iam quite behind on this. But what was the cost of the land in Tempe? Was Tempe not giving him the land for super cheap based around him paying for the clean up?

If he has to pay $50-$100 million just to buy the land, plus a few more million for the studies, thats without a shovel going in the dirt. What are we looking at all in for this project and does he have the capital long term to build a multi billion dollar entertainment district all on private funding? Seems quite risky!

That's the big question, but first things first..... we don't even know what the hell the project is!

 

[LPHabsFan]

So this got kind of buried in the other news today but......

Coyotes 'clock is ticking,' optimism on the Olympics, more: One-on-one with NHLPA boss Marty Walsh

With his fall tour coming to a close, The Athletic caught up with Walsh to hear about the issues at the forefront with players.

theathletic.com

The Coyotes can’t play in the 4,600-seat Mullett Arena forever. Word out of the December Board of Governors meeting, per The Athletic’s Pierre LeBrun and Chris Johnston, was that “either the Coyotes finally produce a concrete, shovel-in-the-ground arena plan by the end of January or else the team could get relocated.”

Daly this week indicated to The Athletic that he doesn’t have a “deadline” for final completion of the process — just assurances that the process is proceeding according to plan. “We are told by the club that everything that needs to happen has been happening according to schedule,” Daly said. The Coyotes, through a spokesperson, would only say that they have no update to provide on the arena at this point.

Walsh appeared frustrated not only by the lack of progress but the lack of communication with the NHLPA, which he called “very disappointing.”

“They have not had conversations with me at all,” Walsh said. “I believe they’ve been talking to the league, but they’ve not talked to me about it, which I think is a little strange. You would think they’d want to keep us up to date because we’ve been pretty vocal about it. I’m sticking to what I said at the very beginning. The players deserve and will play in a better arena. They have to.

“A lot of time has gone by. I was in Arizona probably a year ago now. … We were talking about ballot questions at that point. They felt positive about that. That didn’t happen. They were talking about, ‘Oh, we’re going to find a new place pretty quickly.’ The year has gone by and they haven’t found anything, at least to my knowledge. So the clock is ticking on Arizona, in my opinion.”

“I’m hoping within the next couple weeks, we will have some concrete information on what’s going on again,” Walsh said. “I’ve talked to commissioner Gary Bettman about it. He’s got me up to date about on what he knows. But I’m surprised by the Coyotes. I met the owner. I don’t know the president that well, but we have connections from Boston and the fact I haven’t gotten a call is surprising.

Asked if the NHL has prepared contingency plans from a scheduling perspective for next season (i.e. a city for relocation) if the arena situation doesn’t come together, Daly said, “I would say that we will be prepared for any contingency.”

The Utah Jazz’s ownership group, notably, has filed paperwork for the “initiation of formal expansion process” with the NHL.

Yes some of it is reiterating what was said earlier in the year but it does contain updated communication with Walsh and Daly. It's also public acknowledgement of the possible connection between Arizona and Salt Lake City. I'm also curious what he means when he says they've been pretty vocal about the fact that the players need to play in a better arena. Maybe he's referring to more behind closed doors instances since it's been pretty quiet publicly.

 

[Rob]

I can see why the NHLPA isn't happy with the lack of direction.

 

[GKJ]

Elliotte Friedman on 32 Thoughts corroborated that 'end of January' was a real working deadline to know what's going to happen in Arizona, even though he knows deadlines move often in this case. He stated this is what Bettman and/or Daly told the BoG in the December meeting. He asked around if it was accurate and 'was not disputed'

 

[Yukon Joe]

Just a reminder - even if "end of January" is a real and meaningful deadline, it'll be an internal deadline and we, the fans, won't hear anything once the calendar hits Feb 1.

The league will continue to say that6 everything is hunky-dory in Arizona right up until the time the season is over and they announce the sale and relocation (if sale and relocation is what ultimately happens).

 

[eojsmada]

Just a reminder - even if "end of January" is a real and meaningful deadline, it'll be an internal deadline and we, the fans, won't hear anything once the calendar hits Feb 1.

The league will continue to say that6 everything is hunky-dory in Arizona right up until the time the season is over and they announce the sale and relocation (if sale and relocation is what ultimately happens).

Bettman will continue to say that they have nothing in place and that Arizona continues to try and find land. His "technical"-ese is quite funny to watch as he is "technically" correct. They will "technically" not have anything in place until money is paid to the NHL for relocation fee or a sale is negotiated from Meruelo to new ownership.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Bettman will continue to say that they have nothing in place and that Arizona continues to try and find land. His "technical"-ese is quite funny to watch as he is "technically" correct. They will "technically" not have anything in place until money is paid to the NHL for relocation fee or a sale is negotiated from Meruelo to new ownership.

Yup. It'll be "we are aware of the situation in Arizona. We understand the team is continuing to look at options for a new arena. We're satisfied at this time with playing out of Mullett"

Fundamentally they want to avoid the team being a lame duck. In hockey the Winnipeg Jets announced they were moving in 1995, then got a stay of execution, and then announced the team would be moving in 1996. The team's attendance in 95-96 was TERRIBLE because everyone knew the team was leaving. The Oakland A's are going to have the same problem this year, playing in Oakland when they've announced plans to move.

Which is why nothing would be announced until Arizona's season is over (if Arizona does wind up relocating, which I'm always skeptical of).

 

[Shwan]

Phoenix Business Journal put out a good article yesterday that might give insight into Alex's plans here with the state land auction.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2024/01/25/axon-north-scottsdale-hq-mixed-use-development.html

Basically Axon bought a parcel out of state land trust auction for about $49M in 2020 that's off Hayden and 101 which is the general area the Coyotes are looking at allegedly. This land was bought for a new Headquarters.

They are now in a fight with NIMBYs just south of that land because Axon wants to use half of it for a hotel and residential units (sounds familiar).

One of the residents brings up an interesting point though:

"The price Axon paid for the land was based upon industrial zoning, the value of which is a fraction of the value of the land had it been zoned for residential," said Susan McGarry, president of Stonebrook II HOA. "Axon stands to make a lot of money off the back of the city if this is rezoned."

Residents are already pissed off at Axon trying this imagine if someone with the reputation like Alex Meruelo tries something like this.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Phoenix Business Journal put out a good article yesterday that might give insight into Alex's plans here with the state land auction.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2024/01/25/axon-north-scottsdale-hq-mixed-use-development.html

Basically Axon bought a parcel out of state land trust auction for about $49M in 2020 that's off Hayden and 101 which is the general area the Coyotes are looking at allegedly. This land was bought for a new Headquarters.

They are now in a fight with NIMBYs just south of that land because Axon wants to use half of it for a hotel and residential units (sounds familiar).

One of the residents brings up an interesting point though:



Residents are already pissed off at Axon trying this imagine if someone with the reputation like Alex Meruelo tries something like this.

Is there any proof that Alex is looking at buying state land, or just the land that is already owned by another group that would be a private purchase? Too many assumptions in this thread.

 

[Shwan]

Is there any proof that Alex is looking at buying state land, or just the land that is already owned by another group that would be a private purchase? Too many assumptions in this thread.

We have proof Alex Meruelo is dirt cheap and probably won't pay a dime over what he has to for this team. A land auction for non-compatible zoned real estate is his best bet to fulfill that mission.

Anyways, I already threw you all a bone by telling you the likeliest parcel in this "private purchase" scenario. You should pester Craig Morgan on his discord to do some actual journalism and ask about it.

(That land is directly north of the Axon parcel I just posted about, hmm.)

The article does bring up another possibility though. Last year Honor Health outbid Banner for a ~48 acre parcel area (that was just about the Tempe Entertainment District's size projection) out of a land auction. That parcel is on the north end of 101/Hayden and was purchased for $84M.

View attachment 779213

Honor Health did this completely out of spite and apparently have no current desire to use the land.

So for Meruelo's brand this seems like the more plausible site. Banner did all the zoning/paperwork for the site already, and Honor Health is sitting on a parcel they don't really want so they'd probably sell it at a discount, and it's roughly the same size as the TED proposal so it wouldn't cost much to redesign to fit.

 

[aqib]

Just a reminder - even if "end of January" is a real and meaningful deadline, it'll be an internal deadline and we, the fans, won't hear anything once the calendar hits Feb 1.

The league will continue to say that6 everything is hunky-dory in Arizona right up until the time the season is over and they announce the sale and relocation (if sale and relocation is what ultimately happens).

I remember hearing end of first quarter somewhere. In any case the NHL is a multi billion organization not a fair godmother. If something is progressing they aren't going to pull the plug if the clock strikes midnight.

Also, this is different from Atlanta in that if the team was to move it wouldn't effect the schedule the same way because you can schedule a LA-Utah-Dallas trip as easily as LA-Az-Dallas. It's not the same as if you were changing a Nashville-Atlanta-Carolina trip to Nashville-Winnipeg-Carolina.

 

[Shwan]

I remember hearing end of first quarter somewhere. In any case the NHL is a multi billion organization not a fair godmother. If something is progressing they aren't going to pull the plug if the clock strikes midnight.

That's the significance of the Ryan Smith announcement in my opinion.

I posted above somewhere how Alex knows he has the leverage to keep waiting until he can get a deal that maximizes favorability for him because simply the coyotes are a toxic asset no one but him wants to deal with.

Now there's news of a potential motivated buyer who will happily take a franchise even in the condition the Coyotes are in.

Sure the BoG would love $1B for a new club but at some point getting $600M for a relocation and not having to deal with this anymore will be just as appealing.

I can totally be wrong and absolutely correct me if I am but I haven't found anything contrary to the league just having the ability to set relocation/expansion fees to whatever they like, just that they would obviously have to justify it and the potential owner having to agree to it.

 

[awfulwaffle]

We have proof Alex Meruelo is dirt cheap and probably won't pay a dime over what he has to for this team. A land auction for non-compatible zoned real estate is his best bet to fulfill that mission.

Anyways, I already threw you all a bone by telling you the likeliest parcel in this "private purchase" scenario. You should pester Craig Morgan on his discord to do some actual journalism and ask about it.

(That land is directly north of the Axon parcel I just posted about, hmm.)

Yeah, because paying millions up front to ASU and building an annex was "cheap".

 

[Shwan]

Yeah, because paying millions up front to ASU and building an annex was "cheap".

Don't make me tap the sign.

We have proof Alex Meruelo is dirt cheap and probably won't pay a dime over what he has to for this team.

Please enlighten us on what other options Alex Meruelo had aside from paying millions for that annex to be able to play in a 5,000 seat arena.

 

[aqib]

Yup. It'll be "we are aware of the situation in Arizona. We understand the team is continuing to look at options for a new arena. We're satisfied at this time with playing out of Mullett"

Fundamentally they want to avoid the team being a lame duck. In hockey the Winnipeg Jets announced they were moving in 1995, then got a stay of execution, and then announced the team would be moving in 1996. The team's attendance in 95-96 was TERRIBLE because everyone knew the team was leaving. The Oakland A's are going to have the same problem this year, playing in Oakland when they've announced plans to move.

Which is why nothing would be announced until Arizona's season is over (if Arizona does wind up relocating, which I'm always skeptical of).

The arena only holds 4600 people. How low do you think attendence could go?

 

[aqib]

Don't make me tap the sign.



Please enlighten us on what other options Alex Meruelo had aside from paying millions for that annex to be able to play in a 5,000 seat arena.

Paying tens of millions to upgrade the Veterans Memorial Coliseum...

 

[Shwan]

Paying tens of millions to upgrade the Veterans Memorial Coliseum...

Man I wish! While that would have been super hilarious but* that probably would have been north of $100M in repairs alone.

I was personally a big fan of whole "We'll play at a baseball park for 3 years" thing Craig Morgan was trying to pass off as remotely plausible

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Just a reminder - even if "end of January" is a real and meaningful deadline, it'll be an internal deadline and we, the fans, won't hear anything once the calendar hits Feb 1.

The league will continue to say that6 everything is hunky-dory in Arizona right up until the time the season is over and they announce the sale and relocation (if sale and relocation is what ultimately happens).

Can't risk losing any of the 4,300 at Mullett!

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Anyways, I already threw you all a bone by telling you the likeliest parcel in this "private purchase" scenario. You should pester Craig Morgan on his discord to do some actual journalism and ask about it.

(That land is directly north of the Axon parcel I just posted about, hmm.)

There is private land on the NE corner of 101 and 56th st., that is actually in the area that has been rumored.

 

[Shwan]

There is private land on the NE corner of 101 and 56th st., that is actually in the area that has been rumored.

You mean the lot that already has been half purchased for a high end apartment complex and still listed as in development on the developers' page?

ZOM Living has acquired a portfolio of four parcels totaling 33 acres in Phoenix and Scottsdale with plans to deliver up to 1,600 units over the coming years.
The Florida-based firm plans to build up to 1,600 luxury units as part of a first phase of development across five rental communities based in north Phoenix, Scottsdale and the Biltmore District, resulting in a combined investment exceeding $500M.

I Wonder how much extra money Meruelo is going to have to pay for that, because it sounds like ZOM probably wouldn't give that land up for cheap.

Edit:

Coyotedroppings is good people so I'll further explain:

While ZOM did sell off a decent portion of their portfolio last year the problem I have is if they were looking to sell off this chunk of land why didn't they do it in 2023 to any of the myriad of developers building in the area who would have been happy to take it off their hands?

The second question I have is if a full-on apartment developer still hasn't pulled the trigger on this site and started construction there in the ~2 years since they bought the land, there has to be a reason for that. So what does that bode for Alex when he (through Nick Wood) flat out said he needs the residential portion of his entertainment district to work to make the entire thing economically work?

That translates to either the land is extremely valuable and ZOM is just delayed due to financially reorganizing, or the land is extremely undesirable and no one wants it so why the hell would Alex try to build there.

In any event ZOM paid $34M for that land so that's probably the minimum Alex is going to have to pay for that tiny bit of parcel and I would wager that's too rich for his blood.

I was incorrect as Coyotedroppings pointed out the $34 was for the overall purchase of the land on the NW corner of the intersection.

Sounds like something Craig Morgan should investigate.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

You mean the lot that already has been half purchased for a high end apartment complex and still listed as in development on the developers' page?

View attachment 811618



I Wonder how much extra money Meruelo is going to have to pay for that, because it sounds like ZOM probably wouldn't give that land up for cheap.

Edit:

Coyotedroppings is good people so I'll further explain:

While ZOM did sell off a decent portion of their portfolio last year the problem I have is if they were looking to sell off this chunk of land why didn't they do it in 2023 to any of the myriad of developers building in the area who would have been happy to take it off their hands?

The second question I have is if a full-on apartment developer still hasn't pulled the trigger on this site and started construction there in the ~2 years since they bought the land, there has to be a reason for that. So what does that bode for Alex when he (through Nick Wood) flat out said he needs the residential portion of his entertainment district to work to make the entire thing economically work?

That translates to either the land is extremely valuable and ZOM is just delayed due to financially reorganizing, or the land is extremely undesirable and no one wants it so why the hell would Alex try to build there.

In any event ZOM paid $34M for that land so that's probably the minimum Alex is going to have to pay for that tiny bit of parcel and I would wager that's too rich for his blood.

Sounds like something Craig Morgan should investigate.

That's the one, but you're missing a lot of acreage (more on that below). AM would (i would imagine) purchase the acreage that is currently fenced off and owned by ZOM, which could explain delays. Why would ZOM sell off? IDK, they have a larger portion of land fenced for development right across 56th st., that isn’t under development either, so yeah, maybe financial issues. Maybe they are in no rush currently and the stars could align for the right price. As a note, I believe you're exaggerating with the "myriad" of developers statement, it's still fairly open thereabouts.... I was just there yesterday.

Sunella Apartments are basically across the street (N of E City N Dr), so I'd wager pulling the trigger on the build of dwellings isn't a zoning issue etc.

Note that the 33 acres are NOT the sum of what you have outlined above, the majority of that is across the street. I've attached the outline for the acreage I proposed, and included the Zom Acreage outlined as well.

It’s a tenuous situation at this point for certain and I’m just throwing out a possibility. No matter how much I believe the NHL wants the team here, if for no other reason then to grow the game, this asshat ownership group has painted the franchise in a corner, with their actions/antics.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

For more clarity, the yellow outline is my proposed Coyote site and the red is what ZOM currently has fenced for construction. To the best of my knowledge they do not own any of the area outlined in yellow, with the exception of the portion outlined in red and yellow.