CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[Shwan]

Not really enjoying the tone of this post.

I don't know why these matters should be taken personally.

Agree or disagree, I don't care, but a more respectful discussion would be better.

That's just my view.

Nothin personal about it. I'm correcting blatantly incorrect information.

When the same poster continually posts blatantly incorrect information and I continually provide sourced information as to why they're incorrect, what's the recourse here?

I've done it over the arena vote, I've done it over the sportsbook and I'm doing it now over the old arena.

I personally feel someone continually posting blatantly incorrect information when they ought to know better is very disrespectful to everyone on this board.

 

[Warden of the North]

In short terms what's the current state of things with the team and it's state of leaving/staying in Arizona?

Thanks in advance

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

In short terms what's the current state of things with the team and it's state of leaving/staying in Arizona?

Thanks in advance

Yeah, "short term" explanations left the building a long time ago.

 

[Yukon Joe]

In short terms what's the current state of things with the team and it's state of leaving/staying in Arizona?

Thanks in advance

My friend, you're posting in a thread labeled CXLVII - meaning t's the 147th mega-thread on the Arizona (nee Phoenix) Coyotes. Short term has left the building a long time ago.

Very, very, VERY briefly... the Coyotes play out of 5,000 seat Mullett Arena, home of ASU hockey. They have one more year on their lease (but it could probably be extended). The team had a proposal to build a new arena on a former landfill in Tempe, Arizona, but that was voted down in a plebiscite. The team is currently looking at alternative locations, with nothing having been announced.

The question now is how long are the Coyotes willing to play at Mullett / how long is the NHL willing to allow them to play at Mullett, as playing at a 5,000 seat arena can't be great for HRR.

 

[Shwan]

In short terms what's the current state of things with the team and it's state of leaving/staying in Arizona?

Thanks in advance

I'd say Alex Meruelo is just about at life 5 of 9. Call him highly incompetent and/or shrewd and trying to get this done as cheaply as possible to himself, he still has a few viable options on the table to pivot to. As other posters have noted there's really no appealing alternatives right now in terms of what to do with the team for the league and Alex is taking advantage of that to spend his time finding a solution that maximizes the benefit to himself.

I don't really doubt Meruelo will get his arena in the end here in Phoenix eventually, I just know that it's going to benefit Alex Meruelo a lot more than the NHL and it's fans* and we're likely to end up in the exact same situation the Coyotes were 15-20 years ago.

 

[aqib]

I'd say Alex Meruelo is just about at life 5 of 9. Call him highly incompetent and/or shrewd and trying to get this done as cheaply as possible to himself, he still has a few viable options on the table to pivot to. As other posters have noted there's really no appealing alternatives right now in terms of what to do with the team for the league and Alex is taking advantage of that to spend his time finding a solution that maximizes the benefit to himself.

I don't really doubt Meruelo will get his arena in the end here in Phoenix eventually, I just know that it's going to benefit Alex Meruelo a lot more than the NHL and it's fans* and we're likely to end up in the exact same situation the Coyotes were 15-20 years ago.

I honestly don't see how the new arena will work well since there are 2 bigger arenas in the Valley one of which is managed by ASM and the other by Oak View. Those would both have significant advantages in booking non-sports events.

Sure you'll get a bump while there is a period of novelty and the team is good (which they are trending to be) but once the novelty wears off things will fade if the team isn't good. Also, about 13 years from now the Suns will be getting a new arena when their lease expires in 2037. So you'll then have a new venue to compete with.

 

[Shwan]

I honestly don't see how the new arena will work well since there are 2 bigger arenas in the Valley one of which is managed by ASM and the other by Oak View. Those would both have significant advantages in booking non-sports events.

Sure you'll get a bump while there is a period of novelty and the team is good (which they are trending to be) but once the novelty wears off things will fade if the team isn't good. Also, about 13 years from now the Suns will be getting a new arena when their lease expires in 2037. So you'll then have a new venue to compete with.

Absolutely I concur with you. That's why I said the team will be in the same spot as they were 20 years ago when Gila River Arena was new and shiny.

It's a ~30-50 minute ride for the rich folk of Paradise Valley/N. Scottsdale to get to Gila River/Desert Diamond depending on the traffic, so they're not going to mind that drive to get to those big name concerts.

Further, these same rich people couldn't make that drive to support the Coyotes in the past so I doubt putting this arena in their back yard will move the needle much on those expensive season tickets like other Coyotes fans are hoping. Maybe if the team is good they will, but spending money to make the team good is something Meruelo could have done at any point in the last 5 years and he hasn't so I'm not going to hold my breath that he's going to change tune at this point.

Meanwhile, the target demographic for the NHL is pushing literally the opposite direction towards the South/Southeast past Ocotillo (Intel Expansion) and East Mesa/Queen Creek (Tech Corridor)

The problem here is that unlike in the past where these people living in Gilbert/Mesa/Chandler had jobs in Tempe/Phoenix and could cut the transit one way by going to the game from work, these incoming people will be also be working on the outskirts of the Valley as 85212 is currently the most active zip code in America for spec industrial building thanks to Google, Meta, Amazon and Apple all building data centers in the area.

So just as you said, this has all the ingredients to lead right back to square one, where coyotes games are mostly empty because the people who would like to see the games won't spend 2 hours in a car to do it (no matter how good they are) and the arena can't book non-hockey because Meruelo's home-grown arena management company can't compete with ASM/OVG etc.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

If the Glendale bridge wasn't burned, that arena would probably be a vastly superior option to basically any other alternative.

 

[Boris Zubov]

If the Glendale bridge wasn't burned, that arena would probably be a vastly superior option to basically any other alternative.

It's probably true, but nobody from the team nor would too many of the local fans admit that at this point.

In hindsight, Meruelo buying the arena outright from the COG for $140m looks like the smart move....the elephant in the room is the team cannot make money on its own, which is why it either needs a public subsidy or to be surrounded by an entertainment district. If that's the case, why bother at this point? It comes back to the age old question that continually asks if this team is actually viable in the Phoenix market.

 

[Warden of the North]

My friend, you're posting in a thread labeled CXLVII - meaning t's the 147th mega-thread on the Arizona (nee Phoenix) Coyotes. Short term has left the building a long time ago.

Very, very, VERY briefly... the Coyotes play out of 5,000 seat Mullett Arena, home of ASU hockey. They have one more year on their lease (but it could probably be extended). The team had a proposal to build a new arena on a former landfill in Tempe, Arizona, but that was voted down in a plebiscite. The team is currently looking at alternative locations, with nothing having been announced.

The question now is how long are the Coyotes willing to play at Mullett / how long is the NHL willing to allow them to play at Mullett, as playing at a 5,000 seat arena can't be great for HRR.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I'm referring to post Tempe vote. I'm not THAT far out of the loop

Thanks for the update. I and heard some rumblings about the team in the past couple weeks and thought perhaps something relevent was going on.

 

[BB79]

I remember reading these threads years ago when the Glendale gong-show in court was going on, we all thought relocation was imminent. Yet here we are, still.

I hope if my team ever goes into dark times again with ownership issues they get as many chances as the Phoeni-zona Coyotes have had. I guess it's obvious by now, as long as there's a sucker willing to own a team where they are they aren't going anywhere unless they give Gary the "R" word.

The question now is how long are the Coyotes willing to play at Mullett / how long is the NHL willing to allow them to play at Mullett, as playing at a 5,000 seat arena can't be great for HRR.

I thought the Islanders playing at Barclays was bad, this takes the cake. I couldn't believe they allowed it, really

 

[awfulwaffle]

Absolutely I concur with you. That's why I said the team will be in the same spot as they were 20 years ago when Gila River Arena was new and shiny.

It's a ~30-50 minute ride for the rich folk of Paradise Valley/N. Scottsdale to get to Gila River/Desert Diamond depending on the traffic, so they're not going to mind that drive to get to those big name concerts.

Further, these same rich people couldn't make that drive to support the Coyotes in the past so I doubt putting this arena in their back yard will move the needle much on those expensive season tickets like other Coyotes fans are hoping. Maybe if the team is good they will, but spending money to make the team good is something Meruelo could have done at any point in the last 5 years and he hasn't so I'm not going to hold my breath that he's going to change tune at this point.

Meanwhile, the target demographic for the NHL is pushing literally the opposite direction towards the South/Southeast past Ocotillo (Intel Expansion) and East Mesa/Queen Creek (Tech Corridor)

View attachment 800452

The problem here is that unlike in the past where these people living in Gilbert/Mesa/Chandler had jobs in Tempe/Phoenix and could cut the transit one way by going to the game from work, these incoming people will be also be working on the outskirts of the Valley as 85212 is currently the most active zip code in America for spec industrial building thanks to Google, Meta, Amazon and Apple all building data centers in the area.

So just as you said, this has all the ingredients to lead right back to square one, where coyotes games are mostly empty because the people who would like to see the games won't spend 2 hours in a car to do it (no matter how good they are) and the arena can't book non-hockey because Meruelo's home-grown arena management company can't compete with ASM/OVG etc.

This whole argument about another arena is moot. He's not building just an arena, he's building a residential/commercial district to help supplement arena/team revenue. He'll take a loss on the team, and cover it with revenue from the rest of the district. That's the whole point. If he really wanted a new arena for the team, he would have just done it on the reservation, or wherever allowed him to build an arena. But to get what he WANTS, it's obviously taking more time because he has a specific plan in place that will allow this team to be successful moving forward, with no questions asked.

 

[Shwan]

This whole argument about another arena is moot. He's not building just an arena, he's building a residential/commercial district to help supplement arena/team revenue. He'll take a loss on the team, and cover it with revenue from the rest of the district. That's the whole point. If he really wanted a new arena for the team, he would have just done it on the reservation, or wherever allowed him to build an arena. But to get what he WANTS, it's obviously taking more time because he has a specific plan in place that will allow this team to be successful moving forward, with no questions asked.

So he doesn't need the team or arena and is only doing this for his entertainment district?

Man I hope that doesn't have any negative consequences for the Coyotes, their fans or the NHL down the line.

"Six years ago when we bought the team, I said that it would be my plan to sell it once I got the real estate stabilized," Ellman said. "I'm doing exactly what I said I'd do. This is not a change of business heart. It's good that I'm able to sell it to my partner who has been involved with me since day one, instead of selling it to a third party."

Especially when it comes to a Business entity that has a reputation of pulling some extremely cutthroat tactics like refusing to pay their bills and stuff like that.

It accused Moyes of violating an agreement he had entered with the league by refusing to fund the Coyotes' obligations; secretly entering sale talks with Balsillie, who hoped to move the team to Hamilton, Ontario; and filing a bankruptcy petition to accomplish that sale without league approval.

But I'm sure it's going to be 100% totally different this time right?

 

[Shwan]

If he really wanted a new arena for the team, he would have just done it on the reservation.

Also I just want to point out Alex Meruelo would never build on SRPMIC land while 17-34 exists on their books.

The reservation was never an option.

 

[Ciao]

@Warden of the North --- You're probably much more up-to-date on the current situation than I am. I've never been to Phoenix and I'm not really able to follow the coverations about this neighbourhood or that, much less the travel times etc.

My commute to downtown Toronto is nearly hours each way, three time a week, but I still get to as many Leafs and Blue Jay games as I can afford. Not many Leafs games. Quite a few Blue Jays games. The difference in cost is significant.

I would imagine that almost every other big-league market deals with similar issues about commuting times and expense.

From what I'm reading here, and from very far away, it sort of looks like a circular firing squad within the Greater Phoenix Area as to where and how to host an NHL franchise. I'm sure the market is fine. I'm not sure they will come up with the right place and conditions to find an arena.

Maybe the right place already exists?

If not, it seems like finding and acre of land between the salt water and the sea strands.

BTW @awfulwaffle , I don't really buy the idea that the hockey team and arena is just a viable loss-leader for some other type of investment or real estate development. I'm not there, as you are, but businesses usually offload or close down their unprofitable enterprises before too long. If a self-made billionaire really wants a hotel, casino, condos type of deal then that's what usually happens without an anchor attached, that would soon enough get thrown overboard anyway. Not to say the Coyotes would actually be an anchor -- really, they should be quite profitable in a market like Phoenix, Arizona -- but the loss-leader idea just doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Hey has anyone out there watched the Canadian movie Blackberry?

BlackBerry (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's apparently a biopic-comedy about the rise and fall of Blackberry, but it does include a couple of scenes about Balsillie's attempt to purchase the Penguins and the Coyotes.

As far as I can tell it's for rent on all major streaming platforms. It's free on Crave TV (Canada only), and an extended mini-series length version is available on CBC Gem (free with ads, only in Canada, but a VPN might work to get around the geo-lock).

I kind of want to watch it - I mean Gary Bettman is even a (minor) character in the movie!

 

[Yukon Joe]

Also I just want to point out Alex Meruelo would never build on SRPMIC land while 17-34 exists on their books.

The reservation was never an option.

Eminent domain is always technically a possibility anywhere. If you're old enough you might remember the outrage over the Kelo decision from 2005, although it merely just affirmed the right of governments to use eminent domain.

Part of eminent domain is receiving "just compensation" for the land taken.

 

[MNNumbers]

@Warden of the North --- You're probably much more up-to-date on the current situation than I am. I've never been to Phoenix and I'm not really able to follow the coverations about this neighbourhood or that, much less the travel times etc.

My commute to downtown Toronto is nearly hours each way, three time a week, but I still get to as many Leafs and Blue Jay games as I can afford. Not many Leafs games. Quite a few Blue Jays games. The difference in cost is significant.

I would imagine that almost every other big-league market deals with similar issues about commuting times and expense.

From what I'm reading here, and from very far away, it sort of looks like a circular firing squad within the Greater Phoenix Area as to where and how to host an NHL franchise. I'm sure the market is fine. I'm not sure they will come up with the right place and conditions to find an arena.

Maybe the right place already exists?

If not, it seems like finding and acre of land between the salt water and the sea strands.

BTW @awfulwaffle , I don't really buy the idea that the hockey team and arena is just a viable loss-leader for some other type of investment or real estate development. I'm not there, as you are, but businesses usually offload or close down their unprofitable enterprises before too long. If a self-made billionaire really wants a hotel, casino, condos type of deal then that's what usually happens without an anchor attached, that would soon enough get thrown overboard anyway. Not to say the Coyotes would actually be an anchor -- really, they should be quite profitable in a market like Phoenix, Arizona -- but the loss-leader idea just doesn't make much sense to me.

I think the argument the development goes like this:
It's much easier to charge high dollar rent in a development if the whole thing has some 'panache' or some level of importance. Being near to an arena offers that....."Close to concerts' "It's where the action is". All of that means that figuring out a way to have an arena improves the bottom line a lot.

 

[MeHateHe]

Hey has anyone out there watched the Canadian movie Blackberry?

BlackBerry (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's apparently a biopic-comedy about the rise and fall of Blackberry, but it does include a couple of scenes about Balsillie's attempt to purchase the Penguins and the Coyotes.

As far as I can tell it's for rent on all major streaming platforms. It's free on Crave TV (Canada only), and an extended mini-series length version is available on CBC Gem (free with ads, only in Canada, but a VPN might work to get around the geo-lock).

I kind of want to watch it - I mean Gary Bettman is even a (minor) character in the movie!

It's now a series on Gem. Stars Glenn Howerton from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia as Balsillie. Also features Michael Scott from The Office (I'm kidding about that part.)

 

[aqib]

@Warden of the North -

BTW @awfulwaffle , I don't really buy the idea that the hockey team and arena is just a viable loss-leader for some other type of investment or real estate development. I'm not there, as you are, but businesses usually offload or close down their unprofitable enterprises before too long. If a self-made billionaire really wants a hotel, casino, condos type of deal then that's what usually happens without an anchor attached, that would soon enough get thrown overboard anyway. Not to say the Coyotes would actually be an anchor -- really, they should be quite profitable in a market like Phoenix, Arizona -- but the loss-leader idea just doesn't make much sense to me.

The only case I can think of was the whole Brooklyn Nets situation. The Nets owner at the time (Bruce Ratner) is from a very prominent Cleveland family. I was working at a Bank in Cleveland and one of my co-workers was at a lunch where he was speaking and Ratner was asked a question about increasing payroll and his answer was basically something to the effect of he didn't really care what the team did the arena was just to get permission from Brooklyn to build is development. Getting a major league team was basically the carrot to Brooklyn to get permission to bulldoze the neighborhood that was there.

That being said, Phoenix has 3 other major league teams. There is a big difference between going from zero to one vs 3 to 4.

Also, like I said before this will be the smallest of the 3 arenas in the Valley. So how would they be able to lure acts away from Footprint (downtown and managed by Oakview) or Glendale (managed by ASM) when they are bigger and have global promoters managing them?

 

[MNNumbers]

The only case I can think of was the whole Brooklyn Nets situation. The Nets owner at the time (Bruce Ratner) is from a very prominent Cleveland family. I was working at a Bank in Cleveland and one of my co-workers was at a lunch where he was speaking and Ratner was asked a question about increasing payroll and his answer was basically something to the effect of he didn't really care what the team did the arena was just to get permission from Brooklyn to build is development. Getting a major league team was basically the carrot to Brooklyn to get permission to bulldoze the neighborhood that was there.

That being said, Phoenix has 3 other major league teams. There is a big difference between going from zero to one vs 3 to 4.

Also, like I said before this will be the smallest of the 3 arenas in the Valley. So how would they be able to lure acts away from Footprint (downtown and managed by Oakview) or Glendale (managed by ASM) when they are bigger and have global promoters managing them?

How do you know it will be smallest? As I understand it, Desert Diamond is undergoing some renovations. It's size might change. Footprint is not huge by any measure. And, we have no idea (at least as far as I know) what the capacity will be for a new arena if one would be built.

Point well taken, though, in regard to OVG and ASM. It would be hard to compete with them. The best thing Glendale has done is to connect with ASM.

 

[Shwan]

Eminent domain is always technically a possibility anywhere. If you're old enough you might remember the outrage over the Kelo decision from 2005, although it merely just affirmed the right of governments to use eminent domain.

Part of eminent domain is receiving "just compensation" for the land taken.

You are correct obviously but Arizona has a precedent involving the Hualapai tribe seizing the Grand Canyon sky bridge from the private developer that helped the tribe make it.

It was settled confidentially in Federal Court and the tribal council removed the eminent domain ordinance from their code.

That's why it's tricky involving reservation land. Even if you build the arena you can't own it, so what would you call just compensation of a 99 year lease that will obviously be discounted because you built the place?

Even if there is a .001% you're going to lose your $500M sports arena you wouldn't build.

 

[Llama19]

How do you know it will be smallest? As I understand it, Desert Diamond is undergoing some renovations. It's size might change. Footprint is not huge by any measure. And, we have no idea (at least as far as I know) what the capacity will be for a new arena if one would be built.

Point well taken, though, in regard to OVG and ASM. It would be hard to compete with them. The best thing Glendale has done is to connect with ASM.

"The (TED) proposal calls for an approximately 16,000-seat arena, which would be fewer seats than in Glendale. [Coyotes President and CEO Xavier] Gutierrez said it's still early in the process, but the idea is for the arena to feature a larger lower bowl to bring fans closer to the ice.

Gutierrez said the trend is to build smaller, more intimate arenas that provide a better fan experience."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2021/09/20/arizona-coyotes-reveal-proposal-for-new-arena-entertainment-district-tempe/8376362002/

For comparison:

Desert Diamond (Glendale) - 17,125 for ice hockey, 18,300 for basketball and about 19,000 for concert events

Footprint Center (Downtown Phoenix) - 16,210 for ice hockey, 17,071 for basketball, 17,716 for in-the-round concerts, 12,565 for end stage concerts, and 4,379 for theater events

 

[aqib]

How do you know it will be smallest? As I understand it, Desert Diamond is undergoing some renovations. It's size might change. Footprint is not huge by any measure. And, we have no idea (at least as far as I know) what the capacity will be for a new arena if one would be built.

Point well taken, though, in regard to OVG and ASM. It would be hard to compete with them. The best thing Glendale has done is to connect with ASM.

All the coverage of the arena indicates it will be 16K seats. Glendale's arena was over 17K for hockey. You're right that Footprint isn't huge but based on Wikipedia it still has slightly more seats. However you're still downtown so they can probably charge more for tickets and therefore bid higher for a concert. That's before you factor in all the other arenas managed by Oak View which gives them an automatic advantage since they can package all of them as part of a tour.

 

[MNNumbers]

Thank you @Llama19 and @aqib for the information concerning the Tempe proposal.

I suppose it is correct to assume that anything the Yotes do now will mimic that, especially since the last seats to build are the most expensive ones to build, and have the least value to ticket buyers.