CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[MNNumbers]

I found the year end Pollstar Rankings. Approx numbers:

Footprint: 330K
Desert Diamond: 130K

I think it will get better for Desert Diamond, and I think Phelps is probably right that the hockey games weren't driving a lot of income for the city. I also remember that way back in the day when IA was trying to negotiate that horrible lease with Glendale, that the management company SMG offered a proposal with no hockey with was far more lucrative for the city than with hockey, and the reason was that the team got all the revenue from game nights.

 

[TheLegend]

I found the year end Pollstar Rankings. Approx numbers:

Footprint: 330K
Desert Diamond: 130K

I think it will get better for Desert Diamond, and I think Phelps is probably right that the hockey games weren't driving a lot of income for the city. I also remember that way back in the day when IA was trying to negotiate that horrible lease with Glendale, that the management company SMG offered a proposal with no hockey with was far more lucrative for the city than with hockey, and the reason was that the team got all the revenue from game nights.

Stepping in here because I noticed Glendale is putting on a big PR thing about DDA today.....

Couple of counterpoints:


IIRC.... Pollstar numbers don't include sporting events. And when DDA first opened (as Glendale Arena) it's Pollstar Top 200 ranking was much higher than it is now.

People keep forgetting (or ignoring) that Glendale wanted to lock the Coyotes in at DDA for 20 more years. (there's a REAL good reason for that aside from the fact the Coyotes were still a major driver of traffic)

So I have to question the narrative of how "lucrative" the arena on it's own is. Even Alex Meruelo was offered the arena at a very low cost and he turned it down.

For Glendale.... getting the costs of operating arena off it's books (remember they pay ASM around $5 million annually to run it) means taking a massive loss when you consider conservatively they still owe ~$120 million on the bonds they took out to build it. That doesn't go away. On the plus side DDA will now become subject to property tax assessments (provided Glendale didn't give them a hefty GPLET relief)

Plus... they aren't going to have a better opportunity than now to get out from under the arena. Because IF Alex Meruelo is successful in getting his project off the ground all bets are off.

For ASM...... they get a venue literally handed to them (depending on the value of the arena going forward). Not that difficult a decision for them.

 

[Shwan]

A lot of assertions in that piece but not a lot of actual facts. I'm not saying they're lying, but while what they're saying sounds plausible there's a lot of 'tell' here and not a lot of show. In a situation as mucky as the Phoenix sports market has shown itself to be, take everything you hear with a few shakers of salt.

Don't worry, Here you go.

Desert Diamond Arena sets revenue record ahead of major renovations.​

Desert Diamond Arena and its owner – the city of Glendale – do not publicly release revenue numbers, but the arena’s management told the Business Journal that gross sales were up 156% from 2022 to 2023, which led to the arena yielding record financial results in a year that also featured some splashy milestones. Country star Zach Bryan drew Desert Diamond Arena's largest crowd ever on Aug. 25, and within weeks a two-day performance from Drake resulted in the venue’s highest-grossing concert and two-show run ever.

Desert Diamond Arena’s results in 2023 made it one of the top performing arenas in the world for ASM Global, the company that manages the Glendale arena as well more than 350 venues worldwide.

 

[Shwan]

Stepping in here because I noticed Glendale is putting on a big PR thing about DDA today.....

Couple of counterpoints:


IIRC.... Pollstar numbers don't include sporting events. And when DDA first opened (as Glendale Arena) it's Pollstar Top 200 ranking was much higher than it is now.

People keep forgetting (or ignoring) that Glendale wanted to lock the Coyotes in at DDA for 20 more years. (there's a REAL good reason for that aside from the fact the Coyotes were still a major driver of traffic)

So I have to question the narrative of how "lucrative" the arena on it's own is. Even Alex Meruelo was offered the arena at a very low cost and he turned it down.

For Glendale.... getting the costs of operating arena off it's books (remember they pay ASM around $5 million annually to run it) means taking a massive loss when you consider conservatively they still owe ~$120 million on the bonds they took out to build it. That doesn't go away. On the plus side DDA will now become subject to property tax assessments (provided Glendale didn't give them a hefty GPLET relief)

Plus... they aren't going to have a better opportunity than now to get out from under the arena. Because IF Alex Meruelo is successful in getting his project off the ground all bets are off.

For ASM...... they get a venue literally handed to them (depending on the value of the arena going forward). Not that difficult a decision for them.

That's a lot of words for you're wrong and the Arena is better off.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Oh you sweet summer child! :hug:

I remember 2013/2014-ish when I thought we were a couple weeks away from resolution - probably the last time I actually thought that.

As for the arena arguments that Glendale is better off without the Yotes, that is also a flashback to 2013.

Back then I would have argued very hard that Glendale would probably be better off without the Yotes, but given the wackiness of the pandemic and it's impact on the entertainment industry as a whole, I'm not sure.

The coyotes certainly didn't help their own case in the intervening years, with pitiful playoff results (No playoff appearances except in 2020). Those playoff gates feel great for the entire area around an arena, and when they're not coming in, it feels very bad.

I think it's safe to say, at the very least, the 'Yotes leaving Glendale wasn't as bad as some predicted for the arena. It probably brought the floor for revenue up, but brought the ceiling way down.

And that's just raw numbers - there are knock on effects that we're really never going to be able to evaluate, and it's in Glendale's best interest to make themselves look smart by painting a sunshine and roses picture, even if the situation is about the same as when the coyotes were playing there (which is what I tend to believe).

 

[Yukon Joe]

I remember 2013/2014-ish when I thought we were a couple weeks away from resolution - probably the last time I actually thought that.

I remember watching a Glendale City Council meeting in 2010 thinking we were just an hour away from resolution...

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I remember watching a Glendale City Council meeting in 2010 thinking we were just an hour away from resolution...

I realize it was tough for Coyotes fans to have gone through, but Glendale brought a certain silliness to the process that was highly entertaining for young me.

 

[Headshot77]

I just feel bad for the fans in the Valley. That's all.

Also, I keep wondering this:
If the arena needs the housing and development aspect in order to be viable, does a housing and development project also need an arena?

In other words, would Meruelo be just as well off to find a site and build there without the arena?

Just asking because I really don't get it?

Housing makes crazy money. You can charge more for your rent if it's close to an entertainment district.

For billionaires, sports are generally playthings and not necessarily investments. It's a flex to own a big 5 sports franchise in the US. Meurello is basically going to subsidize himself with housing income. And eventually when he sells the yotes he will probably get a stupidly good ROI on them because money is fake.

 

[mouser]

I found the year end Pollstar Rankings. Approx numbers:

Footprint: 330K
Desert Diamond: 130K

I think it will get better for Desert Diamond, and I think Phelps is probably right that the hockey games weren't driving a lot of income for the city. I also remember that way back in the day when IA was trying to negotiate that horrible lease with Glendale, that the management company SMG offered a proposal with no hockey with was far more lucrative for the city than with hockey, and the reason was that the team got all the revenue from game nights.

Interestingly the Pollstar numbers and ratios for 2019 were better, although Footprint was doing a renovation that year which would have cut their event calendar.

Footprint: 289K
Desert Diamond 147K

I also note that the Glendale statement of 156% growth in gross sales doesn't clarify whether those are gross sales the arena captures such as concessions and parking, or whether those are gross ticket sales the arena doesn't capture [or even both combined]. I suspect from the wording it's the later, but would be nice to know for certain.

 

[TheLegend]

That's a lot of words for you're wrong and the Arena is better off.

“Better off”

Maybe….

Allow me to simplify it down to a level you can understand then.

Glendale is unloading the arena at a hefty discount. It doesn’t get them off the hook for the bonds it still owes on it. But it gets them off the $5 million or so in annual costs to operate it and opens up a new revenue stream in the form of property taxes to aid paying those bonds off.

That is…. unless Glendale has put a GPLET or other tax deferment into the deal with ASM.

Glendale is mitigating their overall losses here…. nothing more, nothing less. It’s a smart move on their part.

Because IF Alex Meruelo manages to get his entertainment district done, it becomes a whole new ballgame.

ASM for its part is getting a venue at a bargain basement price. There’s little to risk here unless….. Meruelo gets his venue and ED built then it will depend on how having three major arena in the market shakes out in regards to getting events booked.

No matter how much you want to pump the tires up on DDA, those are the basic facts in play here.

 

[TheLegend]

I remember watching a Glendale City Council meeting in 2010 thinking we were just an hour away from resolution...

It was “fifteen minutes”.

 

[mouser]

Glendale is unloading the arena at a hefty discount. It doesn’t get them off the hook for the bonds it still owes on it. But it gets them off the $5 million or so in annual costs to operate it and opens up a new revenue stream in the form of property taxes to aid paying those bonds off.

That is…. unless Glendale has put a GPLET or other tax deferment into the deal with ASM.

Glendale is mitigating their overall losses here…. nothing more, nothing less. It’s a smart move on their part.

Because IF Alex Meruelo manages to get his entertainment district done, it becomes a whole new ballgame.

ASM for its part is getting a venue at a bargain basement price. There’s little to risk here unless….. Meruelo gets his venue and ED built then it will depend on how having three major arena in the market shakes out in regards to getting events booked.

No matter how much you want to pump the tires up on DDA, those are the basic facts in play here.

It‘s a 20 year lease with ASM options to extend in 10 year increments up to 50 years. The lease also includes an arena purchase option for $10 after ASM has fully paid the $33.29M right fee to Glendale. Nominally that would be after year 4, but could theoretically happen earlier if ASM voluntarily pre-pays the full rights fee. After year 4 the annual lease fee is only $1, so ASM could opt not to purchase the arena if they thought it was to their benefit to continue operating as a lesee.

The lease effectively includes a GPLET for ASM. Glendale commits to their best effort to keep the arena free of property taxes. In the event Maricopa County denies a property tax abatement in the future then Glendale will reimburse ASM for arena property taxes.

 

[Lions67]

It was “fifteen minutes”.

It truly was 15 minutes.
I know you know this, others may not, but we were all ready for the press conference that evening. It was being broadcast live on CJOB right up until Glendale coughed up the 25mil to keep them.

 

[hockeyguy0022]

I said the coyotes could be in mullet for 5-8 years... everyone laughed.

Since nothing concrete has developed yet, and there's 4 months to go in the season, I think this is actually the end. If the owners are actually getting displeased enough to say something, then bettman will change his tune as soon as he's told.

I don't think Feretta/Houston or Salt lake are ready/willing this year to be honest. (I don't like salt lake anyway)

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

It truly was 15 minutes.
I know you know this, others may not, but we were all ready for the press conference that evening. It was being broadcast live on CJOB right up until Glendale coughed up the 25mil to keep them.

I mean, yes, Winnipeg needed to be prepared just in case the vote didn't go the way the NHL thought it would go - but in hindsight that vote was never really in that much doubt. I think they always had the votes, and there wasn't a clear path for the anti-subsidy crowd.

 

[Shwan]

Allow me to simplify it down to a level you can understand then.

Everyone who visits this board is well aware that it's you, of the two of us, who is the one that doesn't understand things. Or that you do understand but just have this unwavering commitment to lie.

Eleven scheduled dates from now until the rest of the year isn't great. Only seven TOTAL so far for 2024. (I just looked)

Glendale projected they needed 20 additional dates just to replace the 41 hockey games they would lose and they aren't doing that. That was on top of what they were already booking.

It's also easy for a concert to break an attendance record for one date when you're using the floor for seating. If they did that for every concert then they *might* be fine.

Remember this?

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I said the coyotes could be in mullet for 5-8 years... everyone laughed.

Since nothing concrete has developed yet, and there's 4 months to go in the season, I think this is actually the end. If the owners are actually getting displeased enough to say something, then bettman will change his tune as soon as he's told.

I don't think Feretta/Houston or Salt lake are ready/willing this year to be honest. (I don't like salt lake anyway)

There's still a problem with "where do they even move" which has yet to be answered satisfactorily to me.

Even in-Arizona options seem really limited. Glendale is a no-go, downtown Phoenix seems like a no-go.

Quebec provides BIG time value to the NHL, for jacking up expansion fees. You're seeing this in the NBA, where it's basically an open secret they're going to Vegas and Seattle, but the league is dropping hints about other municipalities in an attempt to build up the market for teams. It's also really clear to me the current BOG really doesn't want to be in QC.

If Houston ownership wanted an NHL team, they would already have one. Atlanta needs to be in a brand new arena, although that would be very funny.

Last summer I thought the only option was SLC, and from what I remember the problem people said with them was their building isn't even that much of an upgrade on Mullet.

I just can't see a landing spot for them right now, unless a Toronto 2 owner steps out of nowhere, or Houston's ownership changes their mind.

And why bother moving from Arizona if you're gonna be in a minor-league arena anyway?

 

[hockeyguy0022]

There's still a problem with "where do they even move" which has yet to be answered satisfactorily to me.

Even in-Arizona options seem really limited. Glendale is a no-go, downtown Phoenix seems like a no-go.

Quebec provides BIG time value to the NHL, for jacking up expansion fees. You're seeing this in the NBA, where it's basically an open secret they're going to Vegas and Seattle, but the league is dropping other municipalities in an attempt to build up the market for teams. It's also really clear to me the current BOG really doesn't want to be in QC.

If Houston ownership wanted an NHL team, they would already have one. Atlanta needs to be in a brand new arena, although that would be very funny.

Last summer I thought the only option was SLC, and from what I remember the problem people said with them was their building isn't even that much of an upgrade on Mullet.

I just can't see a landing spot for them right now, unless a Toronto 2 owner steps out of nowhere, or Houston's ownership changes their mind.

And why bother moving from Arizona if you're gonna be in a minor-league arena anyway?

I agree with everything you said. So they probably stay in mullet arena until the BOG/Owners don't like it anymore.

Hamilton is renovating and should be nice after for a second Ontario team, they absolutely should do that eventually.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I agree with everything you said. So they probably stay in mullet arena until the BOG/Owners don't like it anymore.

Hamilton is renovating and should be nice after for a second Ontario team, they absolutely should do that eventually.

I know I shouldn't throw stones as a Jets fan, but it is very funny you forgot Ottawa even existed

 

[Llama19]

Big changes are coming to Desert Diamond Arena: 'Everyone's going to want to play here'

To quote:

"Desert Diamond Arena in Glendale is celebrating its 20th anniversary in a big way, coming off its most successful year to date while heading into 2024 with a $40 million renovation plan for the multipurpose venue that’s become an anchor for the Westgate Entertainment District.

"We’re really fortunate," City Manager Kevin Phelps says. "The arena doesn’t need a new roof. It doesn’t need structural steel replaced. It doesn’t need electrical or HVAC.

"So we were able to take the $40 million and create more of a special venue that caters to the demands, the needs and the wants of the people paying to come to the events."

"The arena was built at a time when everybody thought the more suites you have, the better," Phelps says.

But that's not what a younger generation of concertgoers wants in 2024.

"They want to go to a concert, but they don’t want to be in a four-person or six-person suite," Phelps says. "They want to get to meet 100 other people that love the same artist they love.""

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/2024/01/09/desert-diamond-arena-glendale-az-renovations/72156007007/

 

[TheLegend]

It truly was 15 minutes.
I know you know this, others may not, but we were all ready for the press conference that evening. It was being broadcast live on CJOB right up until Glendale coughed up the 25mil to keep them.

I also knew Glendale was going to approve the $25 million. It was known here locally at least three days prior to the meeting the votes were there.

The one time I was not sure was with IceArizona in 2014. That took a mutual pack patting between two council members that night.

 

[TheLegend]

Big changes are coming to Desert Diamond Arena: 'Everyone's going to want to play here'

To quote:

"Desert Diamond Arena in Glendale is celebrating its 20th anniversary in a big way, coming off its most successful year to date while heading into 2024 with a $40 million renovation plan for the multipurpose venue that’s become an anchor for the Westgate Entertainment District.

"We’re really fortunate," City Manager Kevin Phelps says. "The arena doesn’t need a new roof. It doesn’t need structural steel replaced. It doesn’t need electrical or HVAC.

"So we were able to take the $40 million and create more of a special venue that caters to the demands, the needs and the wants of the people paying to come to the events."

"The arena was built at a time when everybody thought the more suites you have, the better," Phelps says.

But that's not what a younger generation of concertgoers wants in 2024.

"They want to go to a concert, but they don’t want to be in a four-person or six-person suite," Phelps says. "They want to get to meet 100 other people that love the same artist they love.""

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/2024/01/09/desert-diamond-arena-glendale-az-renovations/72156007007/

They better get busy..... outside of the Rattlers' pending schedule there are a whopping 19 events acheduled for all of 2024 rigth now.

https://www.ticketmaster.com/desert-diamond-arena-tickets-glendale/venue/204917

 

[TheLegend]

Everyone who visits this board is well aware that it's you, of the two of us, who is the one that doesn't understand things. Or that you do understand but just have this unwavering commitment to lie.

ROTFLMAO.... I provided a few facts that are in play here. Mouser provided some additional background info, and you want to pander to the audience.

Remember this?

Yeah.... since that post it's up to a whopping 19, plus whatever the Rattlers schedule comes to now. Glendale claimed they needed 20 events to make up the loss of the Coyotes' 41 dates..

They're a little short right now are they not?????

Link's posted in the post right above in case you want to doubt me.

Of course they still have time to add some more events but tours don't just pop onto schedule overnight. Learned that from a former poster who did that kind of work for a living.

 

[Shwan]

ROTFLMAO.... I provided a few facts that are in play here. Mouser provided some additional background info, and you want to pander to the audience.

They're not facts when they're wrong. Additionally, If you know it's wrong, they're called lies.

Yeah.... since that post it's up to a whopping 19, plus whatever the Rattlers schedule comes to now. Glendale claimed they needed 20 events to make up the loss of the Coyotes' 41 dates..

They're a little short right now are they not?????

Here's your signature goal-post moving to 2024 so you don't have to talk about 2023, which the article is talking about. Shocker

No worries. Here let me educate you because, you know, the whole you're lying or you don't understand thing.

First off, that metric you keep falsely alluding to was in regards to Westgate spending only, not arena revenue.

Let me write that down again

In terms of spending at Westgate only (outside the arena) it would take approximately 20 additional concerts or large other events (with attendance of 10,000+) to equal
the same amount of sales tax revenues to the city as 43 Coyotes games.

Further, the magic number total for Westgate based on the report, is 37.

Compared to $430,000 for 17 concerts per year (about $25,000 per event).

20 + 17 = 37.

Only would think ASM couldn't book 37 events in a year. Yet here you are trying to say they won't be able to schedule 18 events for the next 11.5 months. Hmm.

Desert Diamond Arena hosted 50 events in 2023, up from 43 in 2022. That led to a year-over-year attendance increase of 119%.

So here we are......once again. Our inevitable conclusion when ever you tap those keys on your keyboard here on BoH:

Did you completely misread an economic report from like 2 years ago and no one in your f40 bubble were smart enough to correct you? Or have you just been lying about it to make yourself feel better?

Anyways, I'm sure Glendale and ASM are happy with their arrangements and aren't worried about this hypothetical arena Meruelo may or may not make.

 

[Ciao]

They're not facts when they're wrong. Additionally, If you know it's wrong, they're called lies.



Here's your signature goal-post moving to 2024 so you don't have to talk about 2023, which the article is talking about. Shocker

No worries. Here let me educate you because, you know, the whole you're lying or you don't understand thing.

View attachment 799727

First off, that metric you keep falsely alluding to was in regards to Westgate spending only, not arena revenue.

Let me write that down again



Further, the magic number total for Westgate based on the report, is 37.



20 + 17 = 37.

Only would think ASM couldn't book 37 events in a year. Yet here you are trying to say they won't be able to schedule 18 events for the next 11.5 months. Hmm.



So here we are......once again. Our inevitable conclusion when ever you tap those keys on your keyboard here on BoH:

Did you completely misread an economic report from like 2 years ago and no one in your f40 bubble were smart enough to correct you? Or have you just been lying about it to make yourself feel better?

Anyways, I'm sure Glendale and ASM are happy with their arrangements and aren't worried about this hypothetical arena Meruelo may or may not make.

Not really enjoying the tone of this post.

I don't know why these matters should be taken personally.

Agree or disagree, I don't care, but a more respectful discussion would be better.

That's just my view.