CXLV - Tempe Entertainment District citizen referendum vote upcoming May 16th

[Llama19]

Well, so the thing about pro sports is that they're hardly ever played during times that would interfere with rush hour.

From the article comments....

 

[TheLegend]

North American cities and Obsession with traffic without addressing the root cause of it - name a more iconic duo, I'll wait.

I mean, I doubt this project will affect traffic compared to any other development, but literally ANY project will increase demand. Placating traffic worries with a study like this is just virtue-signaling to NIMBYS IMO.

If a city worries about traffic, then invest in better public transit. Or I guess they could try adding another highway lane. Maybe that will fix it!

NIMBYs historically complain about everything... even if it's an improvement.



To their credit... Glendale has handled things quite well over the years with the Coyotes former arena and the Cardinals stadium at Westgate.

Tempe has experience with ASU, and they were the home for the Cardinals for 18 years. They already knew some mitigation was going to be needed in that area with ASU's growth in their NOVUS project zone, and the rest of Tempe Town Lake as it was.

 

[TheLegend]

From the article comments....

View attachment 702344

Your typical NIMBY response....

Southern and Rural is 4 miles southeast of ASU/TED and not anywhere near where game traffic would do anything.

Hell.... even Sky Harbor is closer.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

From the article comments....

View attachment 702344

All right, which one of you is "Joan"?

 

[JimAnchower]

From the article comments....

View attachment 702344

The world is running out of many things. Exclamation marks aren't one of them

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Trust me, when you retire it's lots of fun to go to the Zoo.

Ah, a retired boomer.

 

[aqib]

North American cities and Obsession with traffic without addressing the root cause of it - name a more iconic duo, I'll wait.

I mean, I doubt this project will affect traffic compared to any other development, but literally ANY project will increase demand. Placating traffic worries with a study like this is just virtue-signaling to NIMBYS IMO.

If a city worries about traffic, then invest in better public transit. Or I guess they could try adding another highway lane. Maybe that will fix it!

I've never been to Tempe, in fact the only time I've been in Arizona has been to change planes on my way to LA. So I don't know what type of town it is. However, the term NIMBY has been used to discredit people a bit too much. It used to be about people not wanting people in their neighborhoods who didn't fit the demographic they wanted to be around and so calling out their racism/snobbery was perfectly fine. Now its being used for people who don't want their neighborhoods to become unrecognizable to what they originally bought into. We're seeing the same thing in Arlington Heights as the Bears are starting to plan their stadium project. Its a quiet upper-middle class bedroom community. Now the Bears want to drop a 70K seat dome stadium in the middle of it. A person who bought a house in a bedroom community who doesn't want a 70K seat dome stadium in his neighborhood isn't the same as a person who doesn't want people of a different demographic as his neighbor.

 

[Stumbledore]

Ah, a retired boomer.

I'm a 79 year old documents and property lawyer who never boomed. At one time I owned property in Arizona and loved to visit for hockey games until America went sideways. Now just a retired old fart with a WaPo subscription and eclectic tastes. And a dislike of Gary Bettman that the boss characterizes as "unhealthy".

 

[TheLegend]

For those interested…..




Mail in deadline is May 9th to assure they arrive at the MariCo Elections Center on time, After that ballots can be dropped off at specific locations up to the close of polling on May 16th.

 

[Yukon Joe]

If a city worries about traffic, then invest in better public transit. Or I guess they could try adding another highway lane. Maybe that will fix it!

This is a total aside, but...

Edmonton is expanding it's LRT system, and it's going to include a stop right by my suburban neighbourhood. I think - great! I can walk a few minutes then ride the LRT right to work!

Almost all of my neighbours though see this as one of the signs of the apocalypse. I mean sure the construction period will be a mess, and it will cause some increased noise. But they go so far as to try and argue that even if they have to build the extension - please don't include a stop in our neighbourhood! TO me that's crazy - so we get all the negatives, but without any upside?

Anything that would prevent poor people from coming to our neighbourhood, I guess.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I'm a 79 year old documents and property lawyer who never boomed. At one time I owned property in Arizona and loved to visit for hockey games until America went sideways. Now just a retired old fart with a WaPo subscription and eclectic tastes. And a dislike of Gary Bettman that the boss characterizes as "unhealthy".

Ok boomer.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I've never been to Tempe, in fact the only time I've been in Arizona has been to change planes on my way to LA. So I don't know what type of town it is. However, the term NIMBY has been used to discredit people a bit too much. It used to be about people not wanting people in their neighborhoods who didn't fit the demographic they wanted to be around and so calling out their racism/snobbery was perfectly fine. Now its being used for people who don't want their neighborhoods to become unrecognizable to what they originally bought into. We're seeing the same thing in Arlington Heights as the Bears are starting to plan their stadium project. Its a quiet upper-middle class bedroom community. Now the Bears want to drop a 70K seat dome stadium in the middle of it. A person who bought a house in a bedroom community who doesn't want a 70K seat dome stadium in his neighborhood isn't the same as a person who doesn't want people of a different demographic as his neighbor.

So, I've never been to Arizona either.

I don't think that's entirely a fair characterization of a NIMBY. It of course stands for Not In My BackYard. It means someone who is opposed to development, even if it will help the wider community, if it means personal inconvenience. It was never exclusive to, well, racists.

Now obviously we have zoning and urban planning for a reason. I'd be upset if the city planned to put a trash dump right next to my home too. So I'm not saying we shouldn't have any controls over development.

But there's a sizeable group of people who are opposed to pretty much any development for any reason. One of the debates in my town has been over "infill" development - tearing down small post-war bungalows in otherwise desirable neighbourhoods and building expensive duplexes or otherwise luxury homes. The people buying these infill homes are certainly not "undesireable" or "not the right demographic" - but still people can be rabid in their opposition to such development.

 

[TheLegend]

All right, which one of you is "Joan"?

I got the biggest laugh of "Joan" accusing the AZ Republic of doing a PR job for the Coyotes.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I got the biggest laugh of "Joan" accusing the AZ Republic of doing a PR job for the Coyotes.

Can't say I blame her, with headlines like "Will the Tempe-Coyotes deal bring crippling traffic to the city?"...I mean, oh my heavens, what if the answer is "Yes"?!

 

[BMN]

But there's a sizeable group of people who are opposed to pretty much any development for any reason. One of the debates in my town has been over "infill" development - tearing down small post-war bungalows in otherwise desirable neighbourhoods and building expensive duplexes or otherwise luxury homes. The people buying these infill homes are certainly not "undesirable" or "not the right demographic" - but still people can be rabid in their opposition to such development.

This is an important distinction: I think NIMBY is more of a "type" that applies to people who consistently oppose based on that principle-- often racist and if not that, classist......then after that, just your garden variety misanthropes. More specifically, I think of it referring to people who love all the amenities of a big metro area and want to be able to have them...but want another municipality to take them on. People that want the city without...y'know, all the hard parts.

It doesn't necessarily refer to people that object to one or two things, though. Any project will have a reasoned opposition also.

I'm sure there are non-NIMBY types that oppose the TED project for specific reasons and I'm equally sure there are NIMBYs that will vote against it "just because." Just as I'm also sure there are people that will support the project because they want the Coyotes at all costs and there are also people who will support it because they've logically concluded it's a good thing for their area.

Where I think opponents might need to "show themselves" a little more and a little less as mere NIMBY-ites is to explain not just "I don't like this development" but rather "the alternative of this deal not going through is better for reasons _x_ and _y_."

 

[mouser]

Your typical NIMBY response....

Southern and Rural is 4 miles southeast of ASU/TED and not anywhere near where game traffic would do anything.

Hell.... even Sky Harbor is closer.

Rural can be something of a mess during ASU football games, but that’s 3-4x the amount of traffic TED would draw, and as you said I‘d expect little TED traffic to come in via Rural.

 

[TheLegend]

Rural can be something of a mess during ASU football games, but that’s 3-4x the amount of traffic TED would draw, and as you said I‘d expect little TED traffic to come in via Rural.

I used to live closer to the arenas in Glendale (Camelback and 95th Ave.) than she does to where TED is and even Cardinals traffic wasn't a real issue.

Traffic signal management is the key, and the AZR article noted Tempe needs to upgrade the light system as part of the development. And the Coyotes are going to pitch in a substantial amount of funds for that.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Rural can be something of a mess during ASU football games, but that’s 3-4x the amount of traffic TED would draw, and as you said I‘d expect little TED traffic to come in via Rural.

This commenter won't even know its a game day. No one living south of 60 or east of 101 would ever go to TED via Southern/Rural... that intersection is directly between me and TED, and going that route would be about the 6th or 7th choice.

 

[aqib]

So, I've never been to Arizona either.

I don't think that's entirely a fair characterization of a NIMBY. It of course stands for Not In My BackYard. It means someone who is opposed to development, even if it will help the wider community, if it means personal inconvenience. It was never exclusive to, well, racists.

Now obviously we have zoning and urban planning for a reason. I'd be upset if the city planned to put a trash dump right next to my home too. So I'm not saying we shouldn't have any controls over development.

But there's a sizeable group of people who are opposed to pretty much any development for any reason. One of the debates in my town has been over "infill" development - tearing down small post-war bungalows in otherwise desirable neighbourhoods and building expensive duplexes or otherwise luxury homes. The people buying these infill homes are certainly not "undesireable" or "not the right demographic" - but still people can be rabid in their opposition to such development.

There is a category of people I refer to as CAVE people: Citizens Against Virtually Everything. Some of what you're talking fits into that category. However like you said there are reasons for urban planning and zoning laws. Its not outlandish for people who bought into a suburban college town to not want a major league sports arena with 41 homes games into their town.

 

[TheLegend]

There is a category of people I refer to as CAVE people: Citizens Against Virtually Everything. Some of what you're talking fits into that category. However like you said there are reasons for urban planning and zoning laws. Its not outlandish for people who bought into a suburban college town to not want a major league sports arena with 41 homes games into their town.

Except that suburban college has the largest enrollment (74,000+) in the US.

 

[aqib]

Except that suburban college has the largest enrollment (74,000+) in the US.

Ok let me spell it out. I was calling Tempe a suburb and a college town not referring to ASU as a "suburban college"

 

[TheLegend]

Ok let me spell it out. I was calling Tempe a suburb and a college town not referring to ASU as a "suburban college"

I wouldn’t exactly classify Tempe as being in “the ‘Burbs” either.

 

[mouser]

I wouldn’t exactly classify Tempe as being in “the ‘Burbs” either.

Yeah. There’s a significant location premium on Tempe housing prices, especially north Tempe closer to ASU. A large portion of which houses are older, smaller concrete block evaporation cooler (swamp cooler) designs with no central air.

My house is slightly outside the Tempe borders, 5-6 miles from the core north Tempe districts. If I could magically move my house those half dozen miles to north Tempe it would appraise for twice as much.

 

[PredsHead]

Looks like the turnout is high so far.

 

[LT]

Looks like the turnout is high so far.

Any insights onto the actual results (polls, etc.)?