CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

[HisIceness]

Houston's bigger by every metric and they've been waiting forever.

Which shows you that the metro profile has to meet circumstance. We know Phoenix has the profile but the circumstance may never come...or it could arrive in three years.

In all honesty, Houston should have gotten the Coyotes but I guess Fertitta screwed around and let the guy from Utah beat him to the punch.

 

[aqib]

In all honesty, Houston should have gotten the Coyotes but I guess Fertitta screwed around and let the guy from Utah beat him to the punch.

Fertitta has been screwing around since he bought the Rockets. Houston was far more ready than Utah.

 

[dj4aces]

Houston's bigger by every metric and they've been waiting forever.

Which shows you that the metro profile has to meet circumstance. We know Phoenix has the profile but the circumstance may never come...or it could arrive in three years.

The desirability of a market is trumped only by whether anyone in that market wants to own a team. This is why Houston has been "waiting forever".

That's not to say no one in Houston hasn't tried. There's been two serious attempts before to bring the NHL to the city. First was an attempt to acquire the Cleveland Barons, but I think that was an 11th hour sort of bid, and it was too late. The most recent was the Oilers possible relocation, which was prevented by the NHL.

Until now, there hasn't really been any serious movement to bring the NHL there in an expansion capacity. The question now is whether Fertitta is willing to part ways with $1bn+ now for that franchise, after crapping on the idea of paying a mere $500m less than ten years ago.

 

[Tawnos]

The desirability of a market is trumped only by whether anyone in that market wants to own a team. This is why Houston has been "waiting forever".

That's not to say no one in Houston hasn't tried. There's been two serious attempts before to bring the NHL to the city. First was an attempt to acquire the Cleveland Barons, but I think that was an 11th hour sort of bid, and it was too late. The most recent was the Oilers possible relocation, which was prevented by the NHL.

Until now, there hasn't really been any serious movement to bring the NHL there in an expansion capacity. The question now is whether Fertitta is willing to part ways with $1bn+ now for that franchise, after crapping on the idea of paying a mere $500m less than ten years ago.

I believe Houston had also presented a bid for the early 90s expansions.

 

[TheLegend]

You claim that what made him successful in prior business didn't translate to owning an NHL franchise.

But I don't see how that has anything to do with giving his dipshit son so much influence in the team. Which also makes Sr. an idiot himself.

What should be very obvious to everyone at this point was that the guy was careless and negligent. It was already obvious when it was reported that the guy was stiffing vendors, it was obvious when he got outspent on TED (and the very instant this happened it should have been obvious to everyone else it was going to be a lameduck year because there was no arena on the horizon and you had the PA, a key stakeholder, screaming) and it became more and more obvious as time went on without significant progress or updates.

Saying his business practices didn't translate is still being overly being charitable. Be straight. He was a charlatan who couldn't be bothered for X reason.

Call him what you want. He’s still a self-made billionaire.

Then ask yourself if he’s that bad, why did the NHL allow him in.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Call him what you want. He’s still a self-made billionaire.

Then ask yourself if he’s that bad, why did the NHL allow him in.

The NHL is poorly run, that's why they let him in.

 

[StreetHawk]

I believe Houston had also presented a bid for the early 90s expansions.

Houston bid along with Nash and the other 3. In fact there were 3 bids from Houston. Rockets owner of nba. Aeros owner and someone else.

Think the main stumbling block was that each needed an arena agreement with city.

City was like nhl you need to pick one bid as we are not spending the time to talk to all 3 (and regardless the rockets owner would be in on all discussions since the rockets would play out if the arena).

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Houston bid along with Nash and the other 3. In fact there were 3 bids from Houston. Rockets owner of nba. Aeros owner and someone else.

Think the main stumbling block was that each needed an arena agreement with city.

City was like nhl you need to pick one bid as we are not spending the time to talk to all 3 (and regardless the rockets owner would be in on all discussions since the rockets would play out if the arena).

County authority owns the Toyota Center in conjunction w/ the city of Houston

 

[StreetHawk]

County authority owns the Toyota Center in conjunction w/ the city of Houston

Back then it was only the old summit. NHL wanted a new arena like the others were including in their bids.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Back then it was only the old summit. NHL wanted a new arena like the others were including in their bids.

even still... both arenas

 

[sneakytitz]

County authority owns the Toyota Center in conjunction w/ the city of Houston

Not that it matters in the context StreeHawk was speaking on, they may own it, but like many other arenas/stadiums, they don't operate it. Exchanging ownership for operating rights is a clever trick owners utilize to avoid paying taxes while still functioning as if they own the building, because they get full control.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Call him what you want. He’s still a self-made billionaire.

Then ask yourself if he’s that bad, why did the NHL allow him in.

Because they were desperate to make Arizona is my guess. The NBA had already turned him down after digging deeper into him. That should have been a massive red flag to a serious league like the NHL.

Also, spare me the self-made billionaire deference to authority routine. One, no one is self-made. No one eats alone on their way to a billion. Second, it has nothing to do with how much he fumbled the franchise he had. He fumbled it so bad that he gave up on the deal the NHL gave him what, less than two months after losing the team?

You've been told for years and years that this guy was no good and chose to ignore it through a bunch of word salads trying to justify his misdeed. The team is gone and isn't coming back anytime soon. At what point does the reality set in that this guy either grifted or was utterly incompetent if flat-out losing the team doesn't do it?

 

[dj4aces]

I believe Houston had also presented a bid for the early 90s expansions.

You're not wrong... but can it really be a serious attempt to woo the NHL if none of the groups either had an agreement in place for the prospective franchise to play in the existing barn, or didn't have a barn to play in at all?

Today, Houston seems to be in a far better position to land a franchise, all depending on Fertitta.

 

[TheLegend]

Because they were desperate to make Arizona is my guess. The NBA had already turned him down after digging deeper into him. That should have been a massive red flag to a serious league like the NHL.

Also, spare me the self-made billionaire deference to authority routine. One, no one is self-made. No one eats alone on their way to a billion. Second, it has nothing to do with how much he fumbled the franchise he had. He fumbled it so bad that he gave up on the deal the NHL gave him what, less than two months after losing the team?

You've been told for years and years that this guy was no good and chose to ignore it through a bunch of word salads trying to justify his misdeed. The team is gone and isn't coming back anytime soon. At what point does the reality set in that this guy either grifted or was utterly incompetent if flat-out losing the team doesn't do it?

Newsflash….. the team was lost back in 2006. If you want to go back a ways (like a few years worth) you’ll find me indicating that to some degree.

Everything else since then was a parade of patchwork fixes and wondering how in hell was it going to pan out.

It didn’t.

Each new ownership group found themselves in a deeper hole than the previous one because the business plan was kaput, fubar or whatever else you want to call it.

The point I was getting at before you chimed in was had the Coyotes still been a part of Westgate, a guy like Alex Meruelo might have been able to make it work. But that we would never know.

It was strictly speculation and nothing else.

BTW….. I still have a team. It just plays in a different city now and I don’t feel any remorse, sorrow, bitterness or animosity over it.

 

[Shwan]

Because they were desperate to make Arizona is my guess. The NBA had already turned him down after digging deeper into him. That should have been a massive red flag to a serious league like the NHL.

The evidence is mounting that the league had 2 choices: Officially take the team back, again (which would have been monumentally damning) or strike a deal with Meruelo where he assumed the operations (and debt) of the team on paper while the NHL continued servicing it.

I'll say it again, Jerome Powell has just as much to do with the Coyotes leaving Arizona as Alex Meruelo.

Hope everyone has had a great summer so far

 

[BMN]

I don't think highly of Alex Mereulo. And I too deeply resent the "so and so is a self made millionaire/billionaire so they must be awesome" line of thinking that has poisoned the wells of so many discourses in our world.

That said, Mereulo is not the most questionable ownership decision in the history of the franchise. He might not even be second worst. At least he had the money to complete the original purchase.

IceArizona should NEVER have been greenlighted to own the team (and by the team, I mean *any* team...be it Phoenix, Toronto or Timbuk2), and if that meant said team had to move or deactivate (or just be taken over by the league again), so be it. I'll never forget watching Anthony LeBlanc giving presentations to the Glendale City Council and thinking to myself "if you're gonna come off as a used car salesman, could you at least try to come off as a good used car salesman?"

 

[TheLegend]

I don't think highly of Alex Mereulo. And I too deeply resent the "so and so is a self made millionaire/billionaire so they must be awesome" line of thinking that has poisoned the wells of so many discourses in our world.

That said, Mereulo is not the most questionable ownership decision in the history of the franchise. He might not even be second worst. At least he had the money to complete the original purchase.

IceArizona should NEVER have been greenlighted to own the team (and by the team, I mean *any* team...be it Phoenix, Toronto or Timbuk2), and if that meant said team had to move or deactivate (or just be taken over by the league again), so be it. I'll never forget watching Anthony LeBlanc giving presentations to the Glendale City Council and thinking to myself "if you're gonna come off as a used car salesman, could you at least try to come off as a good used car salesman?"

Steve Peters, who was the video coach through when the Coyotes arrived in 1995 through Meruelo’s first year of ownership has seen them all. Plus a couple of the would be suitors (Matt Hulsizer in particular).

He and Craig Morgan were recounting some of the things these groups did over the years in a podcast a couple of months back and it’s a collection of some real comical moments (from a cynical POV).

From what I recall they described IceArizona as a group of “frat bros” who were there for the party and not much else.

I’m still waiting to see if Peters will completely unload the rest of what he knows from over the years

 

[aqib]

I don't think highly of Alex Mereulo. And I too deeply resent the "so and so is a self made millionaire/billionaire so they must be awesome" line of thinking that has poisoned the wells of so many discourses in our world.

That said, Mereulo is not the most questionable ownership decision in the history of the franchise. He might not even be second worst. At least he had the money to complete the original purchase.

IceArizona should NEVER have been greenlighted to own the team (and by the team, I mean *any* team...be it Phoenix, Toronto or Timbuk2), and if that meant said team had to move or deactivate (or just be taken over by the league again), so be it. I'll never forget watching Anthony LeBlanc giving presentations to the Glendale City Council and thinking to myself "if you're gonna come off as a used car salesman, could you at least try to come off as a good used car salesman?"

I have to say as much as I was pro-relocation (especially if it meant them going to Winnipeg and the Thrashers going to QC or Hamilton) I have to admire LeBlanc because he lived the dream of running and even being part owner of a sports team. Who among us wouldn't take a run at that if they got a shot?

 

[Shwan]

That said, Mereulo is not the most questionable ownership decision in the history of the franchise. He might not even be second worst. At least he had the money to complete the original purchase.

The revisionist history of Coyotes fans can be so funny to watch, which is why it'll be so interesting to see how the Meruelo saga gets twisted in the years to come.

They'll always talk about Glendale breaking original long-term agreement and how mean the City Council was.

Glendale caught IceArizona red handed funneling the money from the arena agreement to pay off the debt from buying the team.

So what does the league do? They take assumption of the debt from the team so the city can't vote to break the deal after such an incredible breach. Glendale, now, is rightfully pissed at both the team AND the league even more.

So the City then begins exploring other ways to terminate the contract and finds a conflict of interest issue with Attorney Craig Tindall so they use that. The rest is history.

You never hear about that first part from Coyotes fans from some reason.

The story does bring up good lessons for Coyotes fans though to help them understand how the team was lost:

1. The league was sitting on just about $200,000,000 of debt in the Coyotes' name in 2015. Do you think the other owners paid that principal down one iota in the last ~9 years? Why do you think Craig Morgan keeps alluding to Alex walking away with "substantially" less than the billion that was paid? Does owning that much debt of an asset make you the defacto owner of the asset?

2. Nick Wood has been giving Coyotes owners ethically dubious and/or hilariously bad legal guidance for almost 10 years

Attorney Nick Wood said litigators for the Coyotes will start work on claims seeking $200 million from Glendale.

Before the vote, Wood warned Glendale officials, "If you decide to go forward, you will lose and it will cost taxpayers millions of dollars."

 

[Sgt Schultz]

Things are rarely as black and white as people want to believe. Meruelo was just the last guy to have the deed to a team with a long line of poor owners. He obviously was not a "treasure" but he was probably not their worst owner. Honestly, their best ownership may have been when they were a ward of the NHL which speaks volumes. It's a little like the bankruptcy trustee being the best owner a company every had.

The IceArizona reign looked like the airline captain decided to put his 7-year-old at the controls of the airplane.

 

[KevFu]

If there are people, collectively or individually, that are interested in a team in Arizona under their timeline, why would the NHL take anything off the table, e.g. team history, before you had a chance to hear them out fully? They may not have a care in the world about it and agree with most of us that it belongs to Winnipeg, but until they say so, there is absolutely no reason to start restricting what the Arizona expansion entails.

Huh, I think you got it backward.

I was watching a baseball game last night, and the camera showed the pennant flags flapping. The road team announcer said "Those pennants; are ONE Nationals pennant and the rest are the old Washington Senators' pennants. Not sure why those are up, those belong to to the Minnesota Twins franchise. They should be celebrating the Expos' history, which is their franchise."

And it's like "Duh, the people of Washington DC don't give a damn about what happened in Montreal, they care about what happened in Washington DC, because they live there!"


The reason that history follows the franchise and not the city is simply because the person/entity keeping the history is the franchise. They don't stay put in the city. But when a new team comes back to a city, now there's a guy who's keeping track of both! The Nationals fly Senators flags, but they also have the Expos records and honor legends like Carter and Raines in the ballpark.


What I suggested wouldn't be taking franchise history OFF the table for Phoenix. It would be putting it ON THE TABLE for everyone, always. It's already on the table for Phoenix. Utah did not get it. The NHL has it.

It WAS going to be given back to AM with an arena deal. And there's no reason they wouldn't give it to whomever steps up to bring the NHL back to Phoenix. It's like 95% the next PHX team will be the Arizona Coyotes, because either they'll come back soon enough that the NHL will want to present it as "seamless," OR they'll be gone so long that nostalgia will kick in.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Huh, I think you got it backward.

I was watching a baseball game last night, and the camera showed the pennant flags flapping. The road team announcer said "Those pennants; are ONE Nationals pennant and the rest are the old Washington Senators' pennants. Not sure why those are up, those belong to to the Minnesota Twins franchise. They should be celebrating the Expos' history, which is their franchise."

And it's like "Duh, the people of Washington DC don't give a damn about what happened in Montreal, they care about what happened in Washington DC, because they live there!"


The reason that history follows the franchise and not the city is simply because the person/entity keeping the history is the franchise. They don't stay put in the city. But when a new team comes back to a city, now there's a guy who's keeping track of both! The Nationals fly Senators flags, but they also have the Expos records and honor legends like Carter and Raines in the ballpark.


What I suggested wouldn't be taking franchise history OFF the table for Phoenix. It would be putting it ON THE TABLE for everyone, always. It's already on the table for Phoenix. Utah did not get it. The NHL has it.

It WAS going to be given back to AM with an arena deal. And there's no reason they wouldn't give it to whomever steps up to bring the NHL back to Phoenix. It's like 95% the next PHX team will be the Arizona Coyotes, because either they'll come back soon enough that the NHL will want to present it as "seamless," OR they'll be gone so long that nostalgia will kick in.

which Senators franchise, Kev.... weren't the Texas Rangers the original Washington Senators, not the Twins or Expos

 

[KevFu]

which Senators franchise, Kev.... weren't the Texas Rangers the original Washington Senators, not the Twins or Expos

Twins are the original Senators.
The Replacement Senators came in 1961 and then they moved to Texas.

But the 1961-1972 Senators didn't win anything.

The flags flying in Nationals Park are the 1925 and 1933 AL pennants, and the 1924 World Series flag.

 

[StreetHawk]

You're not wrong... but can it really be a serious attempt to woo the NHL if none of the groups either had an agreement in place for the prospective franchise to play in the existing barn, or didn't have a barn to play in at all?

Today, Houston seems to be in a far better position to land a franchise, all depending on Fertitta.

If you are the city, how much time can you commit to working out an arena with 3 separate parties ( and having Les Alexander, the Rockets owner in on all 3 of them as the Rockets no matter what have to be involved). Almost a chicken and egg situation. City wanted the NHL to pick one of the three so that legit negotiations can go on. I doubt Les Alexander was going to be as accommodating if he didn't get the NHL team with either of the 2 remaining bids when discussing an arena. One of the rare cases was you can have too much of a good thing.

With an old barn in the Summit, even sharing a new arena with an NHL club would be an upgrade for the Rockets, like it was for the Mavs/Stars going from Reunion to AAC. But, with AZ, Suns had control, so Coyotes limited in revenue. First mover advantage for the Suns, which is why they were not going to share again with the Coyotes when they left Glendale.

 

[sneakytitz]

Huh, I think you got it backward.

I was watching a baseball game last night, and the camera showed the pennant flags flapping. The road team announcer said "Those pennants; are ONE Nationals pennant and the rest are the old Washington Senators' pennants. Not sure why those are up, those belong to to the Minnesota Twins franchise. They should be celebrating the Expos' history, which is their franchise."

And it's like "Duh, the people of Washington DC don't give a damn about what happened in Montreal, they care about what happened in Washington DC, because they live there!"


The reason that history follows the franchise and not the city is simply because the person/entity keeping the history is the franchise. They don't stay put in the city. But when a new team comes back to a city, now there's a guy who's keeping track of both! The Nationals fly Senators flags, but they also have the Expos records and honor legends like Carter and Raines in the ballpark.


What I suggested wouldn't be taking franchise history OFF the table for Phoenix. It would be putting it ON THE TABLE for everyone, always. It's already on the table for Phoenix. Utah did not get it. The NHL has it.

It WAS going to be given back to AM with an arena deal. And there's no reason they wouldn't give it to whomever steps up to bring the NHL back to Phoenix. It's like 95% the next PHX team will be the Arizona Coyotes, because either they'll come back soon enough that the NHL will want to present it as "seamless," OR they'll be gone so long that nostalgia will kick in.

As I said, you don't know until you know - maybe they would have plans for it (if they're smart they would).

For example, the Atlanta Braves won titles in other cities before Atlanta but the Braves organization LOVES to highlight the other teams. There are TONS of Milwaukee and Boston imagery and callbacks in Truist Park. And it doesn't have to be the Braves name either - we claim the histories of the....*checks notes* Boston Bees, Boston Rustlers, Boston Doves, Boston Beaneaters, Boston Red Caps, and Boston Red Stockings. The Braves play no less than twice annually in Boston and Milwaukee uniforms.

Know why....? Themed nights and Merchandise! Have some AVCO trophy nights and give away mini-replicas. You can do it 3 times in one year - COLLECT THEM ALL! If it's part of the deal, or you get first rights, the cost would be minimal to the ROI.