CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

[aqib]

They also have this team called the Houston Rockets that play there and those dates have not been added.

The point is this: why rush if you don't want/have to?

You're grasping at straws. NBA and NHL teams have about 20 games each in October and November. So you're talking 10 home dates for each team over 2 months. So between the 16 events they have booked in already. They have 45 other days to schedule 20 games. Just stop arena availability wasn't the issue.

Why rush? Ask Ryan Smith. The opportunity was there NOW. You get an existing hockey operation that's on the verge of being a great team as opposed to starting from scratch and probably paying more.

 

[BMN]

FWIW, and you don't have to trust the report, but the TomTom Traffic Index Rating compares cities from all over the globe. Phoenix is 16 spots behind Winnipeg in terms of the congestion ranking:

https://www.tomtom.com/traffic-index/ranking/?country=CA%2CMX%2CUS

That said, it's a nuanced conversation anyway: You could have an arena in a gridlocked town but a still convenient location (Winnipeg, for e.g., doesn't have a very dispersed population so everyone is stuck in traffic but at least they're close to the thing they're stuck in traffic trying to get to) vs. an area not as gridlocked but inconvenient even with clear freeway times (AZ hockey fans are close enough to each other to constitute a metro but far enough away from each other that placing the arena in the right place is tricky).

Not saying it isn't a valid conversation to have but it's more nuanced than "Boy the traffic here sucks." All city traffic sucks, that's no revelation.

 

[sneakytitz]

You're grasping at straws. NBA and NHL teams have about 20 games each in October and November. So you're talking 10 home dates for each team over 2 months. So between the 16 events they have booked in already. They have 45 other days to schedule 20 games. Just stop arena availability wasn't the issue.

Why rush? Ask Ryan Smith. The opportunity was there NOW. You get an existing hockey operation that's on the verge of being a great team as opposed to starting from scratch and probably paying more.

And you're being pedantic. We don't know his motivations or timeline; I simply provided one of hundreds of logistical hurdles that he and his group may not want to bother with on a 4 month notice.

 

[aqib]

And you're being pedantic. We don't know his motivations or timeline; I simply provided one of hundreds of logistical hurdles that he and his group may not want to bother with on a 4 month notice.

The logistical hurdle you mentioned was a non-issue. Saying that the Toyota Center was too busy to add 10 hockey games over 2 months was simply not true.

He would have had a lot fewer hurdles than Utah has. He doesn't need to overhaul the arena or come up with a name. His hurdles would have been less than what Winnipeg had (they had to move their AHL team at the same time).

 

[sneakytitz]

The logistical hurdle you mentioned was a non-issue. Saying that the Toyota Center was too busy to add 10 hockey games over 2 months was simply not true.

Ah, you need me to walk you through this? Okay, I'll break out my crayons.

We are smack dab in the part of the year where acts start announcing their fall tour dates. For example, Billie Eillish and Post Malone have released portions of their tour dates within the last 24 hours. If you go to Google and type in "Announces Fall Tour" you're going to see hundreds of articles published in the last 24 hours about dozens of acts announcing their tours. This is going to keep happening in the coming weeks.

Now, here is where things get really tricky so I'll ask you read this very slowly: they don't decide when and where to have a concert a few days before they make an announcement. Generally, arena dates are negotiated and booked 6-12 months in advance. What you see on the calendar right now isn't going to be accurate in just a month's time. There will be more booked dates for October and November.

If that wasn't confusing, listen to this: you can't always "stage" an event the day of. Sometimes set pieces and equipment must be in place 24 hours before the event - stuff like pyro has to be inspected, tested, approved. So, there are days where the arena can't be used even though the calendar shows no events because it's either prepared or being prepared for the following evening's event.

Also, your original post about the number of dates was wrong. There are 11 non-NBA events at Toyota Center in October at the moment, not 9.

Now, stop being pedantic. Or just think.

 

[KevFu]

FWIW, and you don't have to trust the report, but the TomTom Traffic Index Rating compares cities from all over the globe. Phoenix is 16 spots behind Winnipeg in terms of the congestion ranking:

https://www.tomtom.com/traffic-index/ranking/?country=CA%2CMX%2CUS

That said, it's a nuanced conversation anyway: You could have an arena in a gridlocked town but a still convenient location

All city traffic sucks, that's no revelation.

You're right about the nuance. I never felt the traffic in PHX "sucked." It's a thing you manage to anywhere you live. I've lived enough places that I'm not bitching about traffic. Everyone knows that every place has it's chokepoints. There's always a few areas that are always backed up at peaks because they're interchanges.

So the traffic in PHX isn't bad at all, if you're not going thru those chokepoints.

The issue that's been discussed regarding Glendale and Coyotes fans, is that a quarter of the market -- and by demographic, more like 3/8ths the Coyotes fan base -- MUST go through TWO chokepoints in a row to go to a game in Glendale.

 

[Melrose Munch]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1805695308221104528

 

[aqib]

Ah, you need me to walk you through this? Okay, I'll break out my crayons.

We are smack dab in the part of the year where acts start announcing their fall tour dates. For example, Billie Eillish and Post Malone have released portions of their tour dates within the last 24 hours. If you go to Google and type in "Announces Fall Tour" you're going to see hundreds of articles published in the last 24 hours about dozens of acts announcing their tours. This is going to keep happening in the coming weeks.

Now, here is where things get really tricky so I'll ask you read this very slowly: they don't decide when and where to have a concert a few days before they make an announcement. Generally, arena dates are negotiated and booked 6-12 months in advance. What you see on the calendar right now isn't going to be accurate in just a month's time. There will be more booked dates for October and November.

If that wasn't confusing, listen to this: you can't always "stage" an event the day of. Sometimes set pieces and equipment must be in place 24 hours before the event - stuff like pyro has to be inspected, tested, approved. So, there are days where the arena can't be used even though the calendar shows no events because it's either prepared or being prepared for the following evening's event.

Also, your original post about the number of dates was wrong. There are 11 non-NBA events at Toyota Center in October at the moment, not 9.

Now, stop being pedantic. Or just think.

Madison Square Garden has a lot of events during that time too. They still manage. Delta Center has 5 events scheduled for October. Do you really think those extra 6 events that Toyota Center has is the reason they didn't get the Coyotes? If Fertitta really wanted an NHL team and was willing to pay the asking price you think he would have say there and said "you know what, we're too busy this October so we're going to pass. Call us back when you're doing expansion and we'll talk then"

 

[TheLegend]

Worth noting that we do know is that Tillman has met with the NHL at least 3 times since February, with Tillman saying things were getting "more serious", and installed ice making equipment in the Toyota Center with the latest renovation. Disney on Ice can bring their own ice making equipment so I doubt he spent all that money just to cater to them. He may be playing hardball but he is engaging with them frequently and putting everything in place needed to host an NHL team.

Quebec City has been meeting regularly with Bettman for the last 10 years. Doesn’t mean much.

There is more to it than having an arena and a name. The Toyota Center is one of the busiest arenas in America and their calendar for October/November is already pretty full between concerts/events/NBA games. Logistically, it may have not been possible to accommodate everyone plus an NHL team, or it may have made for some weird schedules, on just a 4 month notice


He wants that arena filled 300 days a year and he wants a hockey team "tomorrow", but, as he said, it all has to make sense and not just a price, a name, etc.

Every arena operator wants their facility filled. But as you said he wants it to make sense to him (as in cheap). NHL isn’t going to do cheap.

 

[objectiveposter]

Playing hardball to acquire a professional sports franchise might be the dumbest idea ever. These franchises are increasing in value 10+ percent on average every year. Vegas ownership was very aggressive and bought a team for 600 mill not that long ago.....that is now a steal.

 

[TheLegend]

LOL what a load of horseshit.

You piss and moan about how AZ fans are and the sad sad life they have to live... on snow free clear clean blacktop..where even rain is a rare annoyance... only AZ fans truly know what it is to struggle....and how insurmountable a task it is to go to a hockey game.

.. what truly sad special snowflakes AZ people must be.

Those Other market times do not take into account winter traffic, snow storms, closed highways, minefields of potholes, time to warm up the car, sit in congested traffic after a game, the way you have to keep the blower on high so the windshield doesn't frost up on the drive home,

And you think the players in To don't drive from the suburbs to the game? or Winnipeg?

It's always an excuse and how AZ is special and "no other fans understand what it's like" when MILLIONS OF FANS have commutes that make AZ look like a breeze.

Just stop. You sound like a rich kid telling starving children how rough you have it because your mom made your steak Medium instead of medium rare.

pathetic.

You seem to get your pants in a bunch every time someone doesn’t act lock step to your opinion.

The simple fact is you did a couple of Google maps searches and suddenly you’re an expert on what traffic is like in the Phoenix metro area….. and think because you make long drives to see games in Winnipeg that everyone else should too.

Funny thing is… I spent years making the same similar argument in F40 with people WHO ACTUALLY DO THAT COMMUTE, and for many of them it’s an issue.

 

[TheLegend]

As of now the Toyota Center has 9 events in October and 7 in November. They could have scheduled around those and maybe had more road games early. Having a couple of months of complicated scheduling isn't a reason to pass on buying the team and then having to be in the queue with everyone else wanting a team.

One of Glendale’s biggest complaints (well Joyce Clark anyway) with the Coyotes was the NHL wanted the several months of their season blacked out to ease their scheduling

Last I checked DDA only had 19 non-sporting events scheduled for 2024. Throw in 8-10 more dates for the IFL Rattlers and that’s it.

They’re trying now to promote DDA as a meeting spot for companies who want to throw a catered lunch for their employees in a suite or mini-convention on the arena floor.

Even Joyce Clark moved her public district meetings from a local library to one of the terrace spots at DDA. Can’t imagine what the taxpayers in Glendale know what that’s costing them.

 

[sneakytitz]

Madison Square Garden has a lot of events during that time too. They still manage. Delta Center has 5 events scheduled for October. Do you really think those extra 6 events that Toyota Center has is the reason they didn't get the Coyotes? If Fertitta really wanted an NHL team and was willing to pay the asking price you think he would have say there and said "you know what, we're too busy this October so we're going to pass. Call us back when you're doing expansion and we'll talk then"

Comprehension is hard I see. I didn't say it was the reason, I said it could have been one of hundreds of reasons. But go ahead and get in the last word. You need it more than I.

 

[TheLegend]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1805695308221104528

The return of the “”Coyotes“ name, logo, etc to the league hasn’t been confirmed by the league itself yet.

Craig Morgan tried to get Bill Daly to comment on that and Daly stonewalled the response.

Imagine that will be forthcoming.

 

[sneakytitz]

Quebec City has been meeting regularly with Bettman for the last 10 years. Doesn’t mean much.

Quebec City is the city wants a team but doesn't have the money or anyone with money to pay for a team? That Quebec City? Tillman Fertitta has the money.

 

[TheLegend]

You're right about the nuance. I never felt the traffic in PHX "sucked." It's a thing you manage to anywhere you live. I've lived enough places that I'm not bitching about traffic. Everyone knows that every place has it's chokepoints. There's always a few areas that are always backed up at peaks because they're interchanges.

So the traffic in PHX isn't bad at all, if you're not going thru those chokepoints.

The issue that's been discussed regarding Glendale and Coyotes fans, is that a quarter of the market -- and by demographic, more like 3/8ths the Coyotes fan base -- MUST go through TWO chokepoints in a row to go to a game in Glendale.

I never did either.

Spent my first seven years running from west Phoenix out to Mesa for work. The trip out was during afternoon rush hour and would take about 45 minutes….. unless it was a bad accident day then the time doubled.

Then again the west valley wasn’t as developed as it is now. When Glendale’s arena first opened once people got though the downtown core or the northern 1-17 - Loop101 interchange going west it was pretty breezy.

Not any more.

 

[Headshot77]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1805695308221104528

Man he gave up on this racket so fast.

I expected him to torture Arizona hockey fans for another year at least.

 

[GKJ]

We could have a pretty good franchise if we could take Fertitta’s money, Quebec’s building, and Atlanta’s market size and make it one team.

 

[ponder719]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1805695308221104528

OK, league, now do the right thing. Return the 1972-1996 history of the franchise to Winnipeg, and the 1997-2023 history of the franchise to Utah. Keep the branding in reserve for if a new ownership group wants it.

 

[TheLegend]

Quebec City is the city wants a team but doesn't have the money or anyone with money to pay for a team? That Quebec City? Tillman Fertitta has the money.

Or does he? He plunked $2 billion down on the Rockets and another $650 million buying a steakhouse chain right after saying publicly (paraphrasing) “NHL teams have trouble below the Mason-Dixon Line”

We had a thread here based on a transcript from The White House where Fertitta was spending lunch during the pandemic with then President Trump and a couple other billionaires discussing PPP loans.

 

[LT]

We could have a pretty good franchise if we could take Fertitta’s money, Quebec’s building, and Atlanta’s market size and make it one team.

I mean, Houston already has all of this

Fertitta is just holding out for some unknown reason

 

[LT]

Or does he? He plunked $2 billion down on the Rockets and another $650 million buying a steakhouse chain right after saying publicly (paraphrasing) “NHL teams have trouble below the Mason-Dixon Line”

We had a thread here based on a transcript from The White House where Fertitta was spending lunch during the pandemic with then President Trump and a couple other billionaires discussing PPP loans.

His net worth is approaching 11 figures. He absolutely could buy an NHL team right now if he really wanted to.

 

[TheLegend]

Man he gave up on this racket so fast.

I expected him to torture Arizona hockey fans for another year at least.

Had no real choice.

Even if he got the Special Use Permit that would add 9-12 months onto a timeline getting an arena built and make it impossible to meet the three year set point the league gave him to apply for re-activation.

 

[TheLegend]

His net worth is approaching 11 figures. He absolutely could buy an NHL team right now if he really wanted to.

How much is liquid?

 

[LT]

How much is liquid?

No idea how to find that. But he bought the Rockets in recent memory, and has spent nearly 1B on property purchases in the last calendar year.

If he wanted a team, it is his. The only hurdle here is his appetite for that.