CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

[TheLegend]

I figure if the NHL is clever they let the dust settle for awhile (2030 at least)... Get fresh faces to run the league, and see if somebody serious is interested. The problem is when did they do the clever thing when it come to Arizona? Despite all the nice things they said and will be saying publicly there might be a "Never again." feeling behind the scene.

Well they thought they were clever vetting all these ownership groups to run the team the last 20+ years.

Didn’t work out so well.

 

[Fatass]

A lot of people think it saves us three to five years. But in spite the league saying they want to be back here, it’s going to take a group with very deep pockets who can build the arena and meet the expansion price.

That…. On top of wading through all the local politics. We saw a lot of that the last five years.

Imo the league very much wants a club in that market. They will work with the right person (group) to help get a club there.

 

[ponder719]

At this point, I think there are two potential timelines remaining for a team in Phoenix: the Mat Ishbia timeline, which is "two years after he decides he wants a team", and the anyone else timeline, which is "how long will it take you to buy land, get it zoned properly, construct an arena, and build out an arena management and hockey ops structure"?

The Ishbia plan is the same pathway Ryan Smith would have had for an expansion team, where you give yourself lead time to build up hockey ops and figure out where you can incorporate tasks into the Suns ops structure, then do branding work and have an expansion draft. This probably coincides, if it ever happens, with Ishbia deciding he wants either a new arena or a heavy renovation of Footprint, and wants extra leverage to get public support behind him. This means Phoenix is team #34, most likely, after Atlanta.

The other plan, well, that's the nebulous one, and that version pushes Phoenix out to #35 or 36 back into the league at the earliest. If they take their time and do it right, though, this one could pay huge dividends, putting the team into the hands of an ownership group who wants them for the sake of owning a hockey team, not for the sake of having a second tenant to fill dates in their big brother's arena.

 

[sneakytitz]

Imo the league very much wants a club in that market. They will work with the right person (group) to help get a club there.

They'd have the wrong priorities then.

Atlanta and Houston need to be solidified before Phoenix/Mesa/Scottsdale gets even SLIGHTLY entertained again if we're starting from scratch. Using a litany of reasonable metrics, and considering the reality of RSNs, San Diego should be broached before Arizona gets a second sniff. At this point, Arizona should be 4th, at best, on the pecking order. I could make an argument for KC and Baltimore over them in all seriousness.

Let's address the elephant in the room that has been repeated many, many times over on this forum: the Coyotes should have gone back to Winnipeg, not the Thrashers. Arizona on a whole, never mind Phoenix/Mesa/Scottsdale, is not Atlanta, not then and not now. All the Thrashers needed was a home and reprieve for a season or two - a buyer would have been there, and there were some there at the time of the sale but not ready to meet the conditions of ASG. Why spend a hundred million with no home? Unlike the Coyotes, the Thrashers didn't have Bettman willing to do whatever to keep them skating.

Sorry Arizona, but you should have been the sacrificial lamb; you'd likely be at the top of expansion along with Houston and SLC. Instead, you have no imminent prospects and no team.

 

[SImpelton]

They'd have the wrong priorities then.

Atlanta and Houston need to be solidified before Phoenix/Mesa/Scottsdale gets even SLIGHTLY entertained again if we're starting from scratch. Using a litany of reasonable metrics, and considering the reality of RSNs, San Diego should be broached before Arizona gets a second sniff. At this point, Arizona should be 4th, at best, on the pecking order. I could make an argument for KC and Baltimore over them in all seriousness.

Let's address the elephant in the room that has been repeated many, many times over on this forum: the Coyotes should have gone back to Winnipeg, not the Thrashers. Arizona on a whole, never mind Phoenix/Mesa/Scottsdale, is not Atlanta, not then and not now. All the Thrashers needed was a home and reprieve for a season or two - a buyer would have been there, and there were some there at the time of the sale but not ready to meet the conditions of ASG. Why spend a hundred million with no home? Unlike the Coyotes, the Thrashers didn't have Bettman willing to do whatever to keep them skating.

Sorry Arizona, but you should have been the sacrificial lamb; you'd likely be at the top of expansion along with Houston and SLC. Instead, you have no imminent prospects and no team.

To add to your list, serious consideration should be given to Milwaukee and Indianapolis before we seriously consider the Phoenix metro area again. Not that these are great markets but they have traits that could allow them to be successful while the Phoenix metro is going to be held back for some time by its own history as a NHL market.

If the Coyotes hadn't existed I'd feel differently but right now that metro is radioactive to the NHL and will be for a few years to come. That market is poisoned in the same way Oakland probably now is for major league baseball or San Diego for the NFL, and it's just gonna take time for feelings there to settle back down

 

[Tawnos]

The Leafs and the Habs have taxes deal, the Rangers have the mother of all sweetheart lease. It's so good it was worth spending more than a billion to renovate MSG.

Just for clarity, the Rangers don’t have a lease at all. They own the building and the property it’s on. What you’re referring to is the property tax exemption.

 

[TheLegend]

They'd have the wrong priorities then.

Atlanta and Houston need to be solidified before Phoenix/Mesa/Scottsdale gets even SLIGHTLY entertained again if we're starting from scratch. Using a litany of reasonable metrics, and considering the reality of RSNs, San Diego should be broached before Arizona gets a second sniff. At this point, Arizona should be 4th, at best, on the pecking order. I could make an argument for KC and Baltimore over them in all seriousness.

Let's address the elephant in the room that has been repeated many, many times over on this forum: the Coyotes should have gone back to Winnipeg, not the Thrashers. Arizona on a whole, never mind Phoenix/Mesa/Scottsdale, is not Atlanta, not then and not now. All the Thrashers needed was a home and reprieve for a season or two - a buyer would have been there, and there were some there at the time of the sale but not ready to meet the conditions of ASG. Why spend a hundred million with no home? Unlike the Coyotes, the Thrashers didn't have Bettman willing to do whatever to keep them skating.

Sorry Arizona, but you should have been the sacrificial lamb; you'd likely be at the top of expansion along with Houston and SLC. Instead, you have no imminent prospects and no team.

Sorry.... but Houston is going nowhere. Not unless Tillman Fertitta decides to pay what the NHL wants. And they aren't going to back down given how much they know that market is worth.

Otherwise...... they're exactly in the same boat as Arizona.

 

[aqib]

Circumstances and personal fortunes change all the time, even with the exceptionally wealthy. For example, Ryan Smith could have bought the Anaheim Ducks for $109 million back in 2005 - but I doubt 25 year old Ryan Smith had that kind of money. Sure does now though, so he paid $1.2 billion.

Yeah but we're not talking about why any particular individual didn't step up to buy the team we're talking about the fact that NO ONE legit stepped up to own the Coyotes in Arizona despite the number of times the team changed hands since bankruptcy and the amount of time it was on the market.

Sorry.... but Houston is going nowhere. Not unless Tillman Fertitta decides to pay what the NHL wants. And they aren't going to back down given how much they know that market is worth.

Otherwise...... they're exactly in the same boat as Arizona.

If was willing to pay he would have had the Coyotes. It made more sense than Utah on short notice. The arena is hockey-ready and they could have just gone with the Aeros name.

 

[GindyDraws]

Thank f***ing God.

Maybe someone with brains will finally step in and salvage this team.

Yeah but we're not talking about why any particular individual didn't step up to buy the team we're talking about the fact that NO ONE legit stepped up to own the Coyotes in Arizona despite the number of times the team changed hands since bankruptcy and the amount of time it was on the market.



If was willing to pay he would have had the Coyotes. It made more sense than Utah on short notice. The arena is hockey-ready and they could have just gone with the Aeros name.

Yeah, but Tillman explicitly views hockey as something he can use as collateral in arena negotiations, and nothing more. Which sucks as Houston is such a ripe market, but again... unless you want to build your own hockey arena, it's gotta be him.

He's the opposite of Les Alexander in some regards, but is equally as frustrating.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Bullshit. The NBA averaged 1.6 million in the regular season.

NBA's viewership steady in regular season compared to recent years

The NBA's regular season viewership in 2023-24 was in line with recent years, averaging 1.6 million viewers per game.

www.sportsbusinessjournal.com

This isn't the gotcha you think it is.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Meruelo walking away what a f***ing surprise but not before pocketing 200-300 Million for basically f*** all

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

It was a bunch of bullshit from the start and Meruelo is the master of BS

 

[Bucky_Hoyt]

Meh... No real surprise here. But now that he's out, what happens to the Coyotes 'suspended' franchise? Does the NHL retain rights? Could they be sold to Utah so that they don't have to settle on a ridiculous name like Yeti or Blizzard?

 

[patnyrnyg]

Partially it depends on interpretation. They, 100%, can block a team from playing at Copps in Hamilton. Outside of that, it depends on if you think the rule is that the stadium can’t be within another team’s territory or that the new team’s territory can’t overlap with another team’s territory. I interpret it to mean the latter, but I know at least one person here interprets it to mean the former.

And it says it can’t be done without the existing team’s consent. That’s what the indemnification fee would be for. To buy that consent. But if Toronto said “no amount of money will make us say yes” then it can’t happen.

That leads to my next question, what would be required to change the by-law? When Hard Knocks started for the NFL, the original agreement was no team would ever be forced to participate. That has since changed.

 

[Tawnos]

That leads to my next question, what would be required to change the by-law? When Hard Knocks started for the NFL, the original agreement was no team would ever be forced to participate. That has since changed.

I'm not sure, but was the thing with Hard Knocks a league constitution thing or a CBA thing? Those are separate issues.

 

[sneakytitz]

Sorry.... but Houston is going nowhere. Not unless Tillman Fertitta decides to pay what the NHL wants. And they aren't going to back down given how much they know that market is worth.

Worth noting that we do know is that Tillman has met with the NHL at least 3 times since February, with Tillman saying things were getting "more serious", and installed ice making equipment in the Toyota Center with the latest renovation. Disney on Ice can bring their own ice making equipment so I doubt he spent all that money just to cater to them. He may be playing hardball but he is engaging with them frequently and putting everything in place needed to host an NHL team.

If was willing to pay he would have had the Coyotes. It made more sense than Utah on short notice. The arena is hockey-ready and they could have just gone with the Aeros name.

There is more to it than having an arena and a name. The Toyota Center is one of the busiest arenas in America and their calendar for October/November is already pretty full between concerts/events/NBA games. Logistically, it may have not been possible to accommodate everyone plus an NHL team, or it may have made for some weird schedules, on just a 4 month notice.

He wants that arena filled 300 days a year and he wants a hockey team "tomorrow", but, as he said, it all has to make sense and not just a price, a name, etc.

 

[patnyrnyg]

The Leafs and the Habs have taxes deal, the Rangers have the mother of all sweetheart lease. It's so good it was worth spending more than a billion to renovate MSG

Dolan owns MSG, not a lease. They have a sweetheart deal on real estate tax. And, Dolan was prepared and offering to move MSG across the street to the Farley building (old post office), but the city/state/whoever dragged their feet. He would have sold MSG back to the city/MTA so they could fix Penn Station

I'm not sure, but was the thing with Hard Knocks a league constitution thing or a CBA thing? Those are separate issues.

It was a league thing. Then, they realized too many teams didnt want it, and heaven forbid they lose a dollar. So, they came up with rules for who could be selected.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Imo the league very much wants a club in that market. They will work with the right person (group) to help get a club there.

Goes back to when Bettman took over. He wanted the league in the south as he felt that as the hinderance to getting a national tv deal. Too many of the local ABC/CBS/NBC/FOX affiliates did not want the games as they felt there wasnt an interest. I was in college in upstate NY in 95-96 and the 3 Fox games in February were not carried as they showed college basketball instead, and it wasnt Syracuse games. If losing Arizona, and maybe to a lesser extent New Mexico (no idea if people there follow Arizona teams) will hurt national tv deals, then they will work with the right person. But, the other 32 owners are not just going to give away a team "for the market" if it is not going to help them as well.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I hate to say it, but given the prohibitive cost of building a new arena and expansion, the market's likely best shot now is to hope that the Suns eventually want a new arena with hockey sightlines in mind as part of that to double up on their event dates with an NHL team, too.

I have no clue how soon the Suns plan to replace the.... uh.... *googles* ..... Footprint Center.... (really?), though.

 

[ponder719]

I hate to say it, but given the prohibitive cost of building a new arena and expansion, the market's likely best shot now is to hope that the Suns eventually want a new arena with hockey sightlines in mind as part of that to double up on their event dates with an NHL team, too.

I have no clue how soon the Suns plan to replace the.... uh.... *googles* ..... Footprint Center.... (really?), though.

Phoenix City Council approves $230 million Phoenix Suns arena-renovation deal

The Phoenix City Council approved a controversial deal with the Phoenix Suns that will keep the NBA franchise in Phoenix through 2037.

www.azcentral.com

The current lease runs through 2037, with an option to extend through 2042.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Good for Suns fans, but that's obviously a major door closed for Yotes fans.

 

[Skidooboy]

Those drive times you show from Google do not take into consideration what rush hour is like around Phoenix Metro.

Even the players would say it took them at least 90 minutes to get from their homes in the Scottsdale area out to Glendale on game days. And that’s before the heaviest part of rush hour hits.

I mean it’s great that you drive 2.5 hours in subzero weather to watch the Jets. If 15,000 more of your fellow Jets fans all said the same thing then I’d definitely be impressed. But somehow I doubt that’s going to happen as we all saw how Jets attendance was running earlier this past season.

LOL what a load of horseshit.

You piss and moan about how AZ fans are and the sad sad life they have to live... on snow free clear clean blacktop..where even rain is a rare annoyance... only AZ fans truly know what it is to struggle....and how insurmountable a task it is to go to a hockey game.

.. what truly sad special snowflakes AZ people must be.

Those Other market times do not take into account winter traffic, snow storms, closed highways, minefields of potholes, time to warm up the car, sit in congested traffic after a game, the way you have to keep the blower on high so the windshield doesn't frost up on the drive home,

And you think the players in To don't drive from the suburbs to the game? or Winnipeg?

It's always an excuse and how AZ is special and "no other fans understand what it's like" when MILLIONS OF FANS have commutes that make AZ look like a breeze.

Just stop. You sound like a rich kid telling starving children how rough you have it because your mom made your steak Medium instead of medium rare.

pathetic.

 

[aqib]

Worth noting that we do know is that Tillman has met with the NHL at least 3 times since February, with Tillman saying things were getting "more serious", and installed ice making equipment in the Toyota Center with the latest renovation. Disney on Ice can bring their own ice making equipment so I doubt he spent all that money just to cater to them. He may be playing hardball but he is engaging with them frequently and putting everything in place needed to host an NHL team.



There is more to it than having an arena and a name. The Toyota Center is one of the busiest arenas in America and their calendar for October/November is already pretty full between concerts/events/NBA games. Logistically, it may have not been possible to accommodate everyone plus an NHL team, or it may have made for some weird schedules, on just a 4 month notice.

He wants that arena filled 300 days a year and he wants a hockey team "tomorrow", but, as he said, it all has to make sense and not just a price, a name, etc.

As of now the Toyota Center has 9 events in October and 7 in November. They could have scheduled around those and maybe had more road games early. Having a couple of months of complicated scheduling isn't a reason to pass on buying the team and then having to be in the queue with everyone else wanting a team.

 

[sneakytitz]

As of now the Toyota Center has 9 events in October and 7 in November. They could have scheduled around those and maybe had more road games early. Having a couple of months of complicated scheduling isn't a reason to pass on buying the team and then having to be in the queue with everyone else wanting a team.

They also have this team called the Houston Rockets that play there and those dates have not been added.

The point is this: why rush if you don't want/have to?

 

[Tawnos]

Worth noting that we do know is that Tillman has met with the NHL at least 3 times since February, with Tillman saying things were getting "more serious", and installed ice making equipment in the Toyota Center with the latest renovation. Disney on Ice can bring their own ice making equipment so I doubt he spent all that money just to cater to them. He may be playing hardball but he is engaging with them frequently and putting everything in place needed to host an NHL team.

I've said this before, but if Fertitta had engaged with (read: sucked up to) the NHL in a serious way starting a year ago the way Ryan Smith did, Houston would have a team right now and SLC would not. Smith didn't just get a team because he was ready. He got it because he'd already laid the groundwork in his relationship with the league.