CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena

[sh724]

A backup location in the near the current site, as in still in/near Tempe area?

It would be outside of Tempe proper, therefore no tax revenues for Tempe, therefore Tempe would much prefer TED happen then the back up site happen

 

[LPHabsFan]

I was going to ask if people are really willing to believe in this magical backup site thing again even though it makes no sense whatsoever but this is the Coyotes saga so of course they are.

 

[mouser]

A backup location in the near the current site, as in still in/near Tempe area?

Site is 3-5 miles away depending exactly where on the property they build. It would be outside the Tempe city borders.

I was going to ask if people are really willing to believe in this magical backup site thing again even though it makes no sense whatsoever but this is the Coyotes saga so of course they are.

Nothing magical about it. The land is available and Meruelo's group had extended discussions with the owner prior to proceeding with the Tempe site. Whether an acceptable deal could be finalized at that second site, and what the extent of the development project would be aren't public.

 

[TheLegend]

I was going to ask if people are really willing to believe in this magical backup site thing again even though it makes no sense whatsoever but this is the Coyotes saga so of course they are.

Other than Meruelo mentioning a little more than two years ago he had two possibilities he was working on before settling on Tempe…. and the mayor of Tempe commenting right after the RFP was issued that he would hate for the city to lose out to another location “just across the city limits”…..

… there’s not much to go on, so most everyone here is taking a “we’ll believe it if we see it” approach.

 

[KevFu]

Ah yes…. Mister “what happens if a plane crashes.” He gave the same speech at the council meeting November 22nd.

Never mind the other three sports stadiums high-rise condos, office buildings that currently exist.

Come to think about it…. I live right under the main flight paths going in and out of Sky Harbor from the west. Seen many planes coming in over my house underneath the designated envelope (when the ceiling is low). I should be scared to death and start filing my own complaints.

If he were truly serious about it he should tell Phoenix they should shut Sky Harbor down and move it to a new location like what they thought about doing some 20-30 years ago.

What happens if a plane crashes? Really? I'm sure your eye-roll at this is as big as mine.

Yes, plane crashes are incredibly bad and we don't want any of those.

But it's PHOENIX where 329 days of the year are sunny and without precipitation. Inclement weather in Phoenix lasts like 40 minutes, about a dozen times a year. There's a reason that there's just a ton of UFO sightings in Arizona: Because you can almost always clearly see everything in the sky.

This is why in the entire list of plane crashes in the United States, THREE have happened in the state of Arizona - TWO were from 1956 to 1986 when pilots were too busy looking at the Grand Canyon to notice there was someone in their blind spot and they collided, and one was a Boeing construction flaw that reared it's ugly head over Yuma, which could/would have happened anywhere.

Phoenix is literally tied for the title of "Safest airport in the world."

 

[bleedblue94]

Site is 3-5 miles away depending exactly where on the property they build. It would be outside the Tempe city border

Thanks, so if that is the case then why not just move the focus to that site rather than wasting more time with this fight? Is there some major advantage to the current location? It just seems like this fight/angling with the airport has been steadily on the horizon for a long time.

 

[Tawnos]

Thanks, so if that is the case then why not just move the focus to that site rather than wasting more time with this fight? Is there some major advantage to the current location? It just seems like this fight/angling with the airport has been steadily on the horizon for a long time.

It'd be hard to know this entirely without knowing what a site B proposed site looks like...

...but at the very least the residential development should be more lucrative.

 

[mouser]

Thanks, so if that is the case then why not just move the focus to that site rather than wasting more time with this fight? Is there some major advantage to the current location? It just seems like this fight/angling with the airport has been steadily on the horizon for a long time.

The Tempe site is a better location in my opinion. A mile from downtown Tempe and the city would almost certainly extend their street car system to the site, increasing non-auto accessibility. That benefits not just arena access, but also desirability of the residential units and other developments on the site.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

It'd be hard to know this entirely without knowing what a site B proposed site looks like...

...but at the very least the residential development should be more lucrative.

Yeah, as a local it's difficult to express without knowing the context of what's in the surrounding area just how good of a location Plan A is. We'd been guessing at where AM might want to put it for ages, but when he sprung it on us the initial reaction was "holy crap! that's a *great* place for it!"
In fact, that they're fighting with the airport is an indication of how good it is: "so you're saying it's convenient to air travel then?"

The other guesses included:
- Salt River Indian Reservation north of 202, west of 101 (near former temp soccer stadium)
- Salt River Indian Reservation near Talking Stick Resort/N. Scottsdale (Dbacks/Rockies spring training)
- Mesa near Sloan Park (Cubs spring training)
- Gila River Indian Reservation near I-10/202 (near current temp soccer stadium)
- north side of Sky Harbor (former Greyhound park/current swap meet site)
- ASU former Karsten golf course (the location of the abortive attempt of the previous owners that fell through, and has since been sort of taken out of the running)
- ...i may have missed others but do not recall

None of those, since they're on indian land (except for sky harbor), would be likely to include the residences because, well, indian land...

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I was going to ask if people are really willing to believe in this magical backup site thing again even though it makes no sense whatsoever but this is the Coyotes saga so of course they are.

If there is a magic bullet backup location it wouldn't make the top ten ridiculous things in this saga, so I'm inclined to believe it.

 

[Ernie]

It would be outside of Tempe proper, therefore no tax revenues for Tempe, therefore Tempe would much prefer TED happen then the back up site happen

What tax revenues?

In reality Tempe would be free of a huge tax liability.

But sure, why not restart the process on a new site? Maybe the Coyotes can get their payroll down to $20m soon! Why bother having a winning team when nobody watches them anyhow?

 

[TheLegend]

What tax revenues?

In reality Tempe would be free of a huge tax liability.

But sure, why not restart the process on a new site? Maybe the Coyotes can get their payroll down to $20m soon! Why bother having a winning team when nobody watches them anyhow?

Would be interesting for you to actually explain where this "tax liability" is.

Then someone might actually take you seriously for a change.

 

[TheLegend]

Yeah, as a local it's difficult to express without knowing the context of what's in the surrounding area just how good of a location Plan A is. We'd been guessing at where AM might want to put it for ages, but when he sprung it on us the initial reaction was "holy crap! that's a *great* place for it!"
In fact, that they're fighting with the airport is an indication of how good it is: "so you're saying it's convenient to air travel then?"

The other guesses included:
- Salt River Indian Reservation north of 202, west of 101 (near former temp soccer stadium)
- Salt River Indian Reservation near Talking Stick Resort/N. Scottsdale (Dbacks/Rockies spring training)
- Mesa near Sloan Park (Cubs spring training)
- Gila River Indian Reservation near I-10/202 (near current temp soccer stadium)
- north side of Sky Harbor (former Greyhound park/current swap meet site)
- ASU former Karsten golf course (the location of the abortive attempt of the previous owners that fell through, and has since been sort of taken out of the running)
- ...i may have missed others but do not recall

None of those, since they're on indian land (except for sky harbor), would be likely to include the residences because, well, indian land...

In a bit of nostalgia.....

The original site Steve Ellman wanted to move the Coyotes to (before Westgate) was in Scottsdale just 2.5 miles northeast of where TED is supposed to go.

 

[LPHabsFan]

Site is 3-5 miles away depending exactly where on the property they build. It would be outside the Tempe city borders.



Nothing magical about it. The land is available and Meruelo's group had extended discussions with the owner prior to proceeding with the Tempe site. Whether an acceptable deal could be finalized at that second site, and what the extent of the development project would be aren't public.

There's land available everywhere. Doesn't make it any more or less magical. Think about what's being said by people here. The profit lies within the residential portion of the plan. That means that an arena on its own, or even with other surrounding buildings and businesses, is not sufficient. Not only that, we're already at the stage where getting the arena done within the ASU agreement timeframe is becoming, questionable in terms of whether or not they'd have to extend it. If this falls through, how much longer would it take? How many more tens of millions of dollars in losses would be added on top of the hundreds of millions of dollars in debt they have right now? Keep in mind, Ottawa per HNIC have roughly 450 million (US? CAD? Not sure) in debt and they're going to sell for 850 - 900 million US but that's with the arena deal.

Other than Meruelo mentioning a little more than two years ago he had two possibilities he was working on before settling on Tempe…. and the mayor of Tempe commenting right after the RFP was issued that he would hate for the city to lose out to another location “just across the city limits”…..

… there’s not much to go on, so most everyone here is taking a “we’ll believe it if we see it” approach.

You might. Others here and in the media have and will continue to act as if everything is going to plan.

If there is a magic bullet backup location it wouldn't make the top ten ridiculous things in this saga, so I'm inclined to believe it.

Top 15? 20? 50?

 

[JimAnchower]

The other advantage of Tempe is that it could also host ASU's basketball games, either just the big games or all of them. ASU keeps saying Desert Financial Arena needs updates, but not much work is being done. Improvements were supposed to be made "very quickly", but more than a year later and not much new news. It's still plausible that an agreement between the Coyotes and ASU is done.

Arizona State basketball arena 'completely functional', ASU president Michael Crow says

Critics of Arizona State's basketball arena have called for a new venue for years, as they consider the facility outdated. Michael Crow disagrees.

www.azcentral.com

 

[Llama19]

These 2 sticking points kept Phoenix and Tempe from a deal on Coyotes development project

To quote:

"Documents and interviews suggest Tempe may have been able to avoid the chaos.

Tempe ultimately rejected three versions of the proposed inter-city agreement because of two deal points that don't seem to carry much consequence. Specifically:

- Tempe would agree not to build apartments in the high-noise zone after the Coyotes project. It would only affect 1.2 square miles of land that's largely developed already. An empty riverbed that's used for Town Lake runoff also represents a big chunk of the land.

- Tempe would not object to eight near-term infrastructure upgrades at Sky Harbor if residents at the new Coyotes development got upset with plane noise. The projects include a 390-foot runway expansion and new terminals for planes to dock. Tempe helped plan the projects with the airport, and Tempe Mayor Corey Woods said he "did not see any red flags" when airport officials presented him with the list in February.

"(In November), we had a framework deal with Tempe ... They rejected it," Chad Makovsky, Phoenix director of aviation services, said. "We then came up with two different framework deals that would also allow this development to move forward. When they were brought to the Tempe City Council, both of those were ultimately rejected."

The sense that Tempe had already "promised" to support Sky Harbor's projects ahead of official negotiations didn't exist among Tempe insiders, either.

Former Tempe Mayor Hugh Hallman, who represented the city in its negotiations with the Coyotes and has been an outspoken critic of Sky Harbor, contends that "nobody ever would have agreed" to guarantee Tempe's support for upcoming airport projects.

"They now want to force the city of Tempe to agree to unknown construction and expansion at the airport and waive all their rights to complain," Hallman said. "It's absurd."

Sky Harbor argues that it wasn't asking Tempe to support "unknown construction" but rather "a defined list of projects in which Tempe actually was involved."

Source (Paywall): www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/04/11/coyotes-project-in-tempe-what-killed-negotiations-with-phoenix/70062246007/

 

[Yukon Joe]

Would be interesting for you to actually explain where this "tax liability" is.

Then someone might actually take you seriously for a change.

The "tax liability" is the fact that Tempe will get zero tax revenue from the TED for what - 25 years? - but will continue to have to provide all the usual city services like fire, police, sewage, etc.

 

[mouser]

The "tax liability" is the fact that Tempe will get zero tax revenue from the TED for what - 25 years? - but will continue to have to provide all the usual city services like fire, police, sewage, etc.

Tempe still gets a cut of the sales tax revenue, but not 100%. A portion of that revenue going to the CFD bonds.

Tempe also gets 100% of property taxes** on development other than the arena (residential, hotel, commercial, retail, etc) after the 8 year GPLET expires.


**Technically, I believe these and all local property taxes go to Maricopa county, however Maricopa distributes much of the property taxes back to the individual cities where they were generated like Tempe.

 

[TheLegend]

The "tax liability" is the fact that Tempe will get zero tax revenue from the TED for what - 25 years? - but will continue to have to provide all the usual city services like fire, police, sewage, etc.

It gets no tax revenue now.

Everything outside the arena, hotels and music venue is only on an 8-year GPLET. That constitutes about 75% of the land in the project.

Tempe will be pulling some sales taxes from within the district. Some will be going back to pay the bonds. And the bond repayments all come from within the district itself. Not on the rest of the city.

Meruelo also provides the building for a first responders unit, a sizable chunk of free office space for the city to use and annually contributes to other city programs including mass transportation development, low cost housing, etc

It’s all laid out in the DDA summary.
So where is the liability again?

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

It gets no tax revenue now.

Everything outside the arena, hotels and music venue is only on an 8-year GPLET. That constitutes about 75% of the land in the project.

Tempe will be pulling some sales taxes from within the district. Some will be going back to pay the bonds. And the bond repayments all come from within the district itself. Not on the rest of the city.

Meruelo also provides the building for a first responders unit, a sizable chunk of free office space for the city to use and annually contributes to other city programs including mass transportation development, low cost housing, etc

It’s all laid out in the DDA summary.
So where is the liability again?

I feel like people still don't realize this location is literally a former dump, that needs to be refurbished at a high price for any development to take place.

Whatever developer who bought the land to refurbish it was going to expect some incentives from the city to do so. Whether it be the coyotes, a giant office building, a solar farm, a golf course, or whatever you imagine should be there over an arena district.

And it's not even a direct incentive, it's just a "we won't collect as much taxes" incentive if I understand the framing of the deal correctly. I know Winnipeg had a very similar deal related to gambling in their district when we only hosted AHL games.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I feel like people still don't realize this location is literally a former dump,

...also that "zero tax revenue" is not a "tax liability". It's zero revenue. Equal. Nothing in; nothing out. And some of you brag about your business acumen, sheesh.

 

[TheLegend]

...also that "zero tax revenue" is not a "tax liability". It's zero revenue. Equal. Nothing in; nothing out. And some of you brag about your business acumen, sheesh.

Well… unless you toss in the tax liability of putting out the occasional land fill fire.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Well… unless you toss in the tax liability of putting out the occasional land fill fire.

The jokes do write themselves sometimes, lol

 

[aqib]

Guys no matter how pro arena you are, you have to admit there are going to be costs to having the development there that don't exist currently. You're going to have more police every time there is an event. You're going to have more kids in the city schools since there is a residential component, etc. So unless the development company is paying for that then it is a burden on the other tax payers.

As far as what another developer would demand you can't say since the RFP was written in such a manner that only the Coyotes could respond to it.

 

[MMC]