CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena

[TheLegend]

In summary...it is...and has always been...IMO...about the housing...
within the 65 dB corridor...everything else is AOK...
but...
Meruelo cannot get the ROI that he needs...without the housing...

The housing is the leverage to prevent the arena/entertainment district from being built. That’s the endgame here.

There are letters between both cities after the IGA was established over housing projects within the 65db zones where it showed Phoenix didn’t have issues with it. None at all.

So why now?

Because those projects didn’t include components that would directly compete with them economically.

The IGA has loopholes in it that PHX wants to either close or eliminate the IGA all together (another endgame). Because that IGA gives Tempe just enough leverage to prevent PHX from expanding Sky Harbor even further. A quick look at those exhibits I mentioned above show those expansions plans over the next 20 years (and beyond.)

They made the mistake of leaking them out to Nick Woods last November and he called them out on it. Nothing’s changed here.

 

[TheLegend]

That certainly has been their message from the start. Agree on housing, one would have to assume that the housing is the biggest driver in this plan as the number of units kept growing and growing.

It actually was less.

Meruelo reduced the housing units by two floors each from the original plans to satisfy the airport’s worry it was too close to the designated flight corridors.

 

[PredsHead]

It actually was less.

Meruelo reduced the housing units by two floors each from the original plans to satisfy the airport’s worry it was too close to the designated flight corridors.

I thought his first proposal was for 1600 units, then went to ~1990 and now according to Sky Harbor is 2100?

 

[Llama19]

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Again, I believe this franchise was cursed by the Molson family in '79.

Nothing comes easy to them, does it?

 

[TheLegend]

I thought his first proposal was for 1600 units, then went to ~1990 and now according to Sky Harbor is 2100?

The TempeWins site says 1600+.

The DDA summary says 1995 across the last 3 phases.

The 2100 may have been he original number before the building were cut down.

 

[PredsHead]

The TempeWins site says 1600+.

The DDA summary says 1995 across the last 3 phases.

The 2100 may have been he original number before the building were cut down.

Original RFP said 1675

 

[TheLegend]

Original RFP said 1675

I understand that.... the plan was in flux for some time as they worked through it.

The financing and everything else changed a lot from the time the initial proposal was filed until last November.

 

[TheLegend]

Apparantly, Tempe had posted the letters they sent to Phoenix that Sky Harbor referred to in their release (noted in Llama's post above) as the reason why they filed.

From a layman's POV.... looks like we have a game of legal chicken going on. Phoenix wants Tempe to blindly concede to potential expansion at Sky Harbor and Tempe won't do it because Phoenix won't fully define the parameters, nor has asked to FAA to approve it all yet.

https://www.tempe.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/101393

https://www.tempe.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/101391

 

[Llama19]

Phoenix sues Tempe to stop Arizona Coyotes development deal

"Phoenix's objections had ended abruptly late last year before Tempe decided to send the deal to voters. The short-lived peace was mainly driven by the last-minute inclusion of an "indemnification" promise in the Coyotes' proposal, according to Sky Harbor official Chad Makovsky.

It essentially required the NHL franchise to defend the airport in court against any excessive plane noise lawsuits filed by new residents on the site. At the time, Makovsky said the airport would no longer "wholeheartedly" oppose the Coyotes deal as long as those promises were kept.

"As it goes to the vote, we're going to work with both the developer and with the City of Tempe to make sure that the commitments that were made actually come to fruition," he said in December. "Provided they do, we don't intend to wholeheartedly oppose this development."

Makovsky wrote in a news release on Tuesday that "we felt we were very close to a reasonable resolution," but the negotiations eventually went sour. The reasons weren't immediately clear.

“After more than a year of meetings and negotiations, we are disappointed that these efforts did not resolve the dispute,” Makovsky said. “We are now left with no other option than to put this in the hands of a judge.""

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/03/28/phoenix-sues-tempe-to-stop-arizona-coyotes-development-deal/70058407007/

 

[MK9]

Tell you this much. If all were right in the world, somehow, some way, someone would figure out how to work a trade between Nashville and ASU for the names for their arenas. That the Preds arena name isn't Mullett Arena is a crime against humanity.

 

[aqib]

Small presser from Tempe1st group and residents :

Even if you think this is a great deal, you have to admit the dudes in tophats were funny

 

[MeHateHe]

Tell you this much. If all were right in the world, somehow, some way, someone would figure out how to work a trade between Nashville and ASU for the names for their arenas. That the Preds arena name isn't Mullett Arena is a crime against humanity.

I appreciate this sense of humour, but every hockey arena has a lot of mullets in it.

 

[JimAnchower]

Does Phoenix filing the lawsuit point to them thinking this bill will pass, or that they could tilt the scales with this action?

 

[TheLegend]

Does Phoenix filing the lawsuit point to them thinking this bill will pass, or that they could tilt the scales with this action?

It could galvanize Tempe residents into pointing a big middle finger at Phoenix by approving it.

If you live in one city, and another city next to you wants to impose their will on you for their own benefit, you would get a little miffed over that.

But this is comes down to a 30-40 year old spat between the two cities rearing it ugly head again. As Sky Harbor grew and built their two southern runways, it put more and more problems onto Tempe with flights going in and out over the city. After tons of noise complaints and lawsuits they reached an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) in 1994 which put some restrictions on how Sky Harbor could operate and how Tempe could build within the area under the flight paths.

But the IGA language is extremely vague and both sides have allowed themselves to fudge on the restrictions over the years. Tempe was sneaking in housing units in small numbers within the zones and Sky Harbor opened up their flight paths because the original paths outlined in the agreement forced aircraft to make a "side-over" maneuver at the last moment, which can be dangerous in certain weather conditions.

Now Sky Harbor is looking to expand the south runways again and they can't because the IGA doesn't expire until 2044. They would love nothing better than to get the IGA dissolved. They think TED can give them that excuse. One of the options they initially offered Tempe was to eliminate that IGA.

 

[TheLegend]

Phoenix sues Tempe to stop Arizona Coyotes development deal

"Phoenix's objections had ended abruptly late last year before Tempe decided to send the deal to voters. The short-lived peace was mainly driven by the last-minute inclusion of an "indemnification" promise in the Coyotes' proposal, according to Sky Harbor official Chad Makovsky.

It essentially required the NHL franchise to defend the airport in court against any excessive plane noise lawsuits filed by new residents on the site. At the time, Makovsky said the airport would no longer "wholeheartedly" oppose the Coyotes deal as long as those promises were kept.

"As it goes to the vote, we're going to work with both the developer and with the City of Tempe to make sure that the commitments that were made actually come to fruition," he said in December. "Provided they do, we don't intend to wholeheartedly oppose this development."

Makovsky wrote in a news release on Tuesday that "we felt we were very close to a reasonable resolution," but the negotiations eventually went sour. The reasons weren't immediately clear.

“After more than a year of meetings and negotiations, we are disappointed that these efforts did not resolve the dispute,” Makovsky said. “We are now left with no other option than to put this in the hands of a judge.""

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/03/28/phoenix-sues-tempe-to-stop-arizona-coyotes-development-deal/70058407007/

They went sour because Phoenix wanted Tempe to openly agree to terms that Tempe feels they have yet to define.

Those two letters that the press release you posted related to and the links on Tempe's site to those letters I posted are at the crux of it.

 

[GindyDraws]

Small presser from Tempe1st group and residents :

These are my people.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

These are my people.

Lol. Even the airplanes were trying to get them to shut the hell up.

 

[Edenjung]

Tell you this much. If all were right in the world, somehow, some way, someone would figure out how to work a trade between Nashville and ASU for the names for their arenas. That the Preds arena name isn't Mullett Arena is a crime against humanity.

I Just recently learned that the Preds Arena was called Gaylord Entertainment Center for a while.
I found that awesome.
Just think about the many misunderstandings and mistake that might have caused

 

[Llama19]

A brief history of the feud that could kill Tempe's Coyotes deal

Source (Paywall): www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/03/30/timeline-phoenix-tempe-feud-over-arizona-coyotes-arena-apartments/70061578007/

Summarized Timeline (Forum rule #6 prevents quoting large portions of original content):

1994: Tempe sues Sky Harbor over plane noise, an agreement is reached

1996: A mutual understanding that the IGA doesn't prohibit apartments
(Letter signed by Phoenix and Tempe mayors agreed IGA didn't apply to apartments, but Phoenix officials now maintain that was unofficial and didn't change any terms within the IGA.)

2001: Phoenix invokes the IGA to stop Tempe's Cardinals deal
(Deal was killed after other airport-related issues cropped up)

2002 – June 2021: IGA unenforced, hundreds of high-noise units built

July 2021 – spring 2022: Phoenix raises concerns about Coyotes deal
(Site sits directly in the high-noise zone)

May – Oct. 2022: Tensions brew amid legal threats and warning flyers

Nov. 2022: Phoenix flips, won't "wholeheartedly oppose" the deal
("indemnification" clause added to require the Coyotes to defend the airport in court against any excessive plane noise lawsuits filed by new residents on the project site, as long as those promises were kept.)

2023: Negotiations blow up, Phoenix sues Tempe for breach of contract

The negotiations had gone sour at some point during the previous four months because of two requests from Phoenix that Tempe wouldn't abide:

- An agreement that, after the Coyotes project, Tempe would no longer build apartments in the high-noise zone. Tempe didn't agree because it did not accept the borders of Phoenix's high-noise map.

- A blanket agreement that Tempe wouldn't object to the airport's future expansion or infrastructure improvements, even if residents complained. Tempe rejected that negotiation point because staffers said they didn't know the extent of Sky Harbor's future plans.

It's unclear when the court will rule on Phoenix's lawsuit or how it will impact the upcoming election.

 

[Llama19]

Tempe's plan for the Arizona Coyotes will be nothing but trouble for Sky Harbor Airport

To quote:

"For more than 25 years, Sky Harbor’s growth, expansion and development plans have been made with the IGA and adherence to its prescribed eastbound departure path in mind.

Tempe even appointed its own aviation commission to ensure that the terms of the agreement remain viable and enforced. All of this to protect Tempe neighborhoods from the life-altering experience of having a flight path directly over their homes.

If this agreement is ignored by Tempe and some 4,000 people move in directly under the flight path, we know what will happen next. The incessant aggravation of having commercial aircraft fly low and directly overhead as often as every minute will result in new noise complaints, calls for airport restrictions, arguments for new flight paths, and limits on air service.

We know this from our shared history (when Tempe sued to stop Sky Harbor’s growth because of noise concerns), our own recent experience (when the FAA changed flight paths to the west of the airport), and from the experiences of other communities around the country.

Proposals such as residential noise insulation are not the answer."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2022/06/01/tempe-plan-arizona-coyotes-spells-trouble-sky-harbor-airport/9996700002/

 

[TheLegend]

A brief history of the feud that could kill Tempe's Coyotes deal

Source (Paywall): www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/03/30/timeline-phoenix-tempe-feud-over-arizona-coyotes-arena-apartments/70061578007/

Summarized Timeline (Forum rule #6 prevents quoting large portions of original content):

1994: Tempe sues Sky Harbor over plane noise, an agreement is reached

1996: A mutual understanding that the IGA doesn't prohibit apartments
(Letter signed by Phoenix and Tempe mayors agreed IGA didn't apply to apartments, but Phoenix officials now maintain that was unofficial and didn't change any terms within the IGA.)

2001: Phoenix invokes the IGA to stop Tempe's Cardinals deal
(Deal was killed after other airport-related issues cropped up)

2002 – June 2021: IGA unenforced, hundreds of high-noise units built

July 2021 – spring 2022: Phoenix raises concerns about Coyotes deal
(Site sits directly in the high-noise zone)

May – Oct. 2022: Tensions brew amid legal threats and warning flyers

Nov. 2022: Phoenix flips, won't "wholeheartedly oppose" the deal
("indemnification" clause added to require the Coyotes to defend the airport in court against any excessive plane noise lawsuits filed by new residents on the project site, as long as those promises were kept.)

2023: Negotiations blow up, Phoenix sues Tempe for breach of contract

The negotiations had gone sour at some point during the previous four months because of two requests from Phoenix that Tempe wouldn't abide:

- An agreement that, after the Coyotes project, Tempe would no longer build apartments in the high-noise zone. Tempe didn't agree because it did not accept the borders of Phoenix's high-noise map.

- A blanket agreement that Tempe wouldn't object to the airport's future expansion or infrastructure improvements, even if residents complained. Tempe rejected that negotiation point because staffers said they didn't know the extent of Sky Harbor's future plans.

It's unclear when the court will rule on Phoenix's lawsuit or how it will impact the upcoming election.

Just read the article and short of copying the entire thing (and I hate paywalls like you probably do) you're leaving a couple of points out here.

Where you mention the IGA went unenforced....

That was the last time Phoenix used the IGA to object to a Tempe development until the Coyotes pitched a similar project two decades later. Roughly 400 apartment units were built in Tempe's high-noise zone during that time and Phoenix didn't challenge any of them.

The lack of oversight suggests that Phoenix bought into the 1996 decision that apartments wouldn't be banned by the IGA, but Sky Harbor officials told The Arizona Republic that they weren't aware of those projects during that time. Unearthed documents show that wasn't always the case.

Tempe's 2013 Papago Park project included housing in the high-noise zone, for example. Phoenix acknowledged that in a letter of support for the proposal, asking only that tenants be made aware of the potential sound issues.

At one point Phoenix tried to claim they were never aware of all those units Tempe built. When documents are available that prove the opposite.

The last part you quoted though, tells everyone what this is all about...

Phoenix wants to expand Sky Harbor. As in not only extending the south runways.... but they also want to add a fourth runway on the north side. They've been quietly acquiring land north of the current airport boundaries for that purpose. The Coyotes attorney, Nick Woods, exposed this at the November meeting.

The current IGA is major block for that because inbound and outbound flights on the north runways are limited to the east over Tempe and South Scottsdale. They could care less about noise and such on their side, but that IGA give Tempe some leverage into thwarting those expansion plans.

Phoenix wants Tempe to blindly give them the room they want but it isn't well defined, and Tempe doesn't want to just give that okay without specific parameters set in stone.

 

[TheLegend]

Tempe's plan for the Arizona Coyotes will be nothing but trouble for Sky Harbor Airport

To quote:

"For more than 25 years, Sky Harbor’s growth, expansion and development plans have been made with the IGA and adherence to its prescribed eastbound departure path in mind.

Tempe even appointed its own aviation commission to ensure that the terms of the agreement remain viable and enforced. All of this to protect Tempe neighborhoods from the life-altering experience of having a flight path directly over their homes.

If this agreement is ignored by Tempe and some 4,000 people move in directly under the flight path, we know what will happen next. The incessant aggravation of having commercial aircraft fly low and directly overhead as often as every minute will result in new noise complaints, calls for airport restrictions, arguments for new flight paths, and limits on air service.

We know this from our shared history (when Tempe sued to stop Sky Harbor’s growth because of noise concerns), our own recent experience (when the FAA changed flight paths to the west of the airport), and from the experiences of other communities around the country.

Proposals such as residential noise insulation are not the answer."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2022/06/01/tempe-plan-arizona-coyotes-spells-trouble-sky-harbor-airport/9996700002/

Op-Ed from 4 former mayors of Phoenix. (FROM LAST YEAR )

Counterpoint...

A few years ago Phoenix there was an idea floated to build a second major airport up in the north Phoenix area that had just been annexed. There was plenty of space and fewer land obstacles (ie mountains, peaks, etc.) to deal with.

The only down side was it's 15 miles or so from the downtown core. That.... and possibly the cost.

Phoenix knew Sky Harbor was ostensibly land locked and there was only so much room for it could grow. But they decided to stick with Sky Harbor and now they've pretty much find themselves in the situation where they have to bully their neighbors some in order to squeeze a little more use out of Sky Harbor.

 

[Blue Warriors]

Op-Ed from 4 former mayors of Phoenix. (FROM LAST YEAR )

Counterpoint...

A few years ago Phoenix there was an idea floated to build a second major airport up in the north Phoenix area that had just been annexed. There was plenty of space and fewer land obstacles (ie mountains, peaks, etc.) to deal with.

The only down side was it's 15 miles or so from the downtown core. That.... and possibly the cost.

Phoenix knew Sky Harbor was ostensibly land locked and there was only so much room for it could grow. But they decided to stick with Sky Harbor and now they've pretty much find themselves in the situation where they have to bully their neighbors some in order to squeeze a little more use out of Sky Harbor.

I guess it was not very smart to build an airport so close to another city without trying to merge Phoenix and Tempe beforehand.

 

[Stumbledore]

The DDA includes a clause where Meruelo covers any (and all) litigation involving noise complaints (it was a concession he made to the airport).

The director of the Phoenix Aviation Department stood up at the council meeting declaring Sky Harbor no longer had any objections.

So what’s changed?

"Indeed, what chicanery! What skullduggery! I mean to put an end to it this very night!"

Sherlock Holmes in Washington, Universal Pictures, 1943.