CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena

[Barclay Donaldson]

I don't care. It makes no difference to me. 4600 seats is not an acc number. And that in it of its'self is. Inaccurate.

4600 seats is a completely accurate number.

If you mean to say 4600 *bums in* seats, that's something entirely different. Because if that's the case, you're going to need to justify attacking not just the Coyotes but half the rest of the teams in the league because you can turn on half the NHL games each week and see 50% of the lower bowl seats are sold but unoccupied.

 

[MNNumbers]

4600 seats is a completely accurate number.

If you mean to say 4600 *bums in* seats, that's something entirely different. Because if that's the case, you're going to need to justify attacking not just the Coyotes but half the rest of the teams in the league because you can turn on half the NHL games each week and see 50% of the lower bowl seats are sold but unoccupied.

And, while it's the topic for another thread, the bolded is a worrisome statement. For. Everyone.

 

[TheLegend]

And, while it's the topic for another thread, the bolded is a worrisome statement. For. Everyone.

Agree.

Then again I don’t watch games just to count empty seats.

 

[TheLegend]

BTW while I’m here….

Prior to game against Vegas last night the Coyotes held a presentation on the upcoming referendum. Several Tempe city council members were there and spoke as well.

This came from Craig Morgan’s Twitter account and I do not know yet if an article is forthcoming but will try to keep a look out for one.

 

[sh724]

Im not here to argue. There are not 4600 fans at a Coyote game. That is all.

It seems clear that is why you are here....

The NHL considers a game SOLD out based on how many tickets are SOLD. The number of people who show up to the game has no bearing on if the game is sold out. The amount of time those in attendance spend in their seat has no bearing on if the game is sold out.

If you want to look negatively at the Yotes because there are seats that are empty that were sold you should be making the same statement about the other 31 teams as its true of all of them. True there are not 4600 people at yotes games just like there are not (insert capacity or random arena) people at (insert name of team that plays at said arena) games.

Its also very common to see many open seats when the game or a period first starts as many people have not yet made it to their seat. And others have mentioned pretty much all modern stadiums have open areas on the concourse where people like to congregate

So while there may be X number of empty seats at any given point in time that is not a static number for the entire games and there is no way if an empty seat really means that a person is not at the game or that the seat was unsold. This is the case for every team in every league

 

[aqib]

Evicted..... because they wouldn't sign a new long term lease of at least 15 years (that's on the record, btw)

The Coyotes are building that arena. The city is only covering the infrastructure costs. Just like any city would for any other type of project. And even that is limited to the within TED itself (read the plan.... it's all there... and been well documented by the local media)

Paid up front in full to play at ASU for the next three years (plus paying another $35 million, also up front, to build the necessary add ons)... also documented in the media.

Three of the last four seasons at GRA (now DDA) saw their attendance increasing. Partly due to signing known players such as Phil Kessel and Taylor Hall, and party due to the team actually in contention for the playoffs for the first time in nearly 10 years. BTW their first three years in Glendale, attendance exceeded that from any year they played downtown. Coyotes average attendance in those days was in the middle of the entire league.

You want to be all about optics??? Then you need to look a little farther than what you only want to look at..

So wouldn't that indicate that maybe the location in Glendale wasn't the problem?

 

[TheLegend]

So wouldn't that indicate that maybe the location in Glendale wasn't the problem?

That’s been explained a number of times here already.

The arena in Glendale was easier to get to when it opened. About 1/5 the traffic there is today. Drive times are roughly double getting around Phoenix metro today than in 2003.

Most of the STH (roughly 3/4 of them) were coming from the east valley. They tolerated the drive at first but it became a real

It wasn’t THE sole problem. But it’s definitely hurt.

 

[LPHabsFan]

Completely random thought that has no bearing whatsoever on anything currently happening with the team on the business side of things....

Remember all of those impassioned pleas from all the NHL people, owners (at the time), fans, etc about how they had no doubt in their mind that the team would be successful in Glendale if they could just get that 25 million dollars? Was it just one payment? I honestly don't remember. After all the other money that they got from the city and god knows who else? And they just needed that money and then success would follow. After all, they already had a building that there were no issues with and would 100% be a success story.

Not sure why that came into my head. Just one of those fleeting thoughts that pass through like the wind I guess.

 

[TheLegend]

Completely random thought that has no bearing whatsoever on anything currently happening with the team on the business side of things....

Remember all of those impassioned pleas from all the NHL people, owners (at the time), fans, etc about how they had no doubt in their mind that the team would be successful in Glendale if they could just get that 25 million dollars? Was it just one payment? I honestly don't remember. After all the other money that they got from the city and god knows who else? And they just needed that money and then success would follow. After all, they already had a building that there were no issues with and would 100% be a success story.

Not sure why that came into my head. Just one of those fleeting thoughts that pass through like the wind I guess.

It was two payments over two years.

The main purpose was to backstop the operations of the arena while completing a sale to a potential buyer (first Matt Hulsizer and then Greg Jamison.).

The pitch to the city was had a sale been completed then the city would have got the money back. That was the only "promise".

 

[rct13]

That’s been explained a number of times here already.

The arena in Glendale was easier to get to when it opened. About 1/5 the traffic there is today. Drive times are roughly double getting around Phoenix metro today than in 2003.

Most of the STH (roughly 3/4 of them) were coming from the east valley. They tolerated the drive at first but it became a real

It wasn’t THE sole problem. But it’s definitely hurt.

Not trying to argue your point on traffic, I was back in the valley in 2018 and it’s night and day different from when I left in 2012, that aside…

You all were using the traffic/commute excuse back in 2009. I was living in the northeast valley in 2009 and it was at most a 40min drive to Glendale arena.

The reality is, if the coyotes were still in Glendale and on the upper end of the standings and playoff bound people would show up.

If the coyotes can’t win with any consistency, the problem will always be fans.

The way I see it there are 3 types of fans in the valley. I’ll list them here in greatest numbers to least.

1. The fickle fan. Arizona is full of them. If the coyotes suns or dbags are winning or in the playoffs they will be the biggest supporters of the team. The city will be full of team flags, clothing, car flags and newly applied stickers. The minute they lose.. all gone.
2. The transplant fan. Always loyal to home. These fans are the reason the coyotes can charge 2x gate prices for 6-8 teams. They are the reason for filling the arena in greater numbers than the home team.
3. Coyotes fans.

The question is after the novelty of a new Tempe arena wears off, what changes for the fan side? If the team is losing, how do you get more of group 1 engaged? How do you break the 13k attendance with $40 average prices and free ticket attendance boosters?

From Meruelo’s side this is a smart move, even if the coyotes fair exactly the same he is making more money due to the retail revenue streams from TED and maybe some of the residential?

Since being in the valley in 1996, the coyotes had winning seasons and playoff appearances in both downtown and Glendale and the data is almost unchanged, 13k average attendance, lower end prices.

My honest question is, what about this Tempe arena will change the course from the last 27 years of consistent results?

 

[Tawnos]

My honest question is, what about this Tempe arena will change the course from the last 27 years of consistent results?

Just because you need one component to work doesn't mean you don't need another.

Yes, the Coyotes need a new arena in a good location and likely with other revenue streams surrounding the arena. Yes, the Coyotes need stable ownership. Yes, the Coyotes need to market properly to the individual traits of the Phoenix market. Yes, the Coyotes will need to bring in corporate support. Yes, the Coyotes will need to put a higher quality product on the ice.

The arena is just one aspect of the equation, but being set up in a stable, lucrative arena situation lets you improve the experience for fans, so when the marketing gets them in the building they're willing to come back. It lets you sell the prestige factor to interested corporate parties. And if the additional revenue streams are stable, it lets you keep quality players, which helps you put a quality product on the ice.

The arena is the foundation that lets you do everything else well.

 

[TheLegend]

Not trying to argue your point on traffic, I was back in the valley in 2018 and it’s night and day different from when I left in 2012, that aside…

You all were using the traffic/commute excuse back in 2009. I was living in the northeast valley in 2009 and it was at most a 40min drive to Glendale arena.

The reality is, if the coyotes were still in Glendale and on the upper end of the standings and playoff bound people would show up.

If the coyotes can’t win with any consistency, the problem will always be fans.

The way I see it there are 3 types of fans in the valley. I’ll list them here in greatest numbers to least.

1. The fickle fan. Arizona is full of them. If the coyotes suns or dbags are winning or in the playoffs they will be the biggest supporters of the team. The city will be full of team flags, clothing, car flags and newly applied stickers. The minute they lose.. all gone.
2. The transplant fan. Always loyal to home. These fans are the reason the coyotes can charge 2x gate prices for 6-8 teams. They are the reason for filling the arena in greater numbers than the home team.
3. Coyotes fans.

The question is after the novelty of a new Tempe arena wears off, what changes for the fan side? If the team is losing, how do you get more of group 1 engaged? How do you break the 13k attendance with $40 average prices and free ticket attendance boosters?

From Meruelo’s side this is a smart move, even if the coyotes fair exactly the same he is making more money due to the retail revenue streams from TED and maybe some of the residential?

Since being in the valley in 1996, the coyotes had winning seasons and playoff appearances in both downtown and Glendale and the data is almost unchanged, 13k average attendance, lower end prices.

My honest question is, what about this Tempe arena will change the course from the last 27 years of consistent results?

Good post. You bring up a lot of factors that play into this.

When I first moved to Arizona, I was commuting from West Phoenix (3 miles south of Westgate) to Mesa for work from 2001 to 2008. That involved passing through the downtown core and I can tell you it was at minimum 45 minutes. Throw in a traffic accident or two and it could easily double that.

For a short time in around 2012-2013 I commuted from the same West Phoenix location to work on the north edge of the Salt River Community. That trip took the roughly 45 minutes you speak of. But.... I was also going against the normal rush hour traffic flow going in the opposite direction.

I'm not a big fan of using the travel component as an excuse. But it's a factor when you begin to take in all of the other elements you bring up. Mainly the team's performance and such. And outside of the first few years downtown and from 2010 to 2012 in Glendale the franchise hasn't given people much reason to ignore the travel factor go see them play. There also was some momentum going after the move to Glendale, but that was destroyed by the 2004 lockout.

As to your question at the end.... you need to look at what the Coyotes had at the end in Glendale and what they will have in Tempe should the residents approve the three propositions this coming May. (You provided some of the answers right above it.)

In Glendale:
- Coyotes were a tenant. They paid to play/practice in the arena.
- The Coyotes only received the revenues generated on game days.

In Tempe:
- The Coyotes (Meruelo) will own the arena.
- The Coyotes will receive 100% of the revenues generated 365 days.
- The retail/residential revenues and such from TED will work to back up the overall operation.

Recall that when the Coyotes first moved to Glendale they were an integral part of Westgate. They still paid rent on the arena because it was owned by the city, but they were owned by the same group (Steve Ellman, Jerry Moyes) that owned Westgate. So they had 100% of the revenue being generated available to them.

That all changed when the recession of 2008 hit and Ellman and Moyes split their partnership, with Moyes taking the Coyotes to fend for itself. It's been my belief that was the beginning of the whole problem the Coyotes have faced since.

What Meruelo is attempting to do in Tempe is get back to what was originally planned for Westgate. An entertainment district that features a major pro sports franchise as a main attraction.

 

[KevFu]

I don't understand why there are pages and pages of arguments over attendance, empty seats, and the accounting practices for reaching an attendance number...

Everyone is just trying to find informational tidbits to fit their views on the situation and use it as "proof" that their opinion is correct.

Attendance. Does. Not. Matter. At. All.

We just proved it in 2020 when the pandemic crushed ticket sales. Who went bankrupt? Who folded? Who even struggled a little bit? Absolutely no one. The NHL lost 15 regular season games each, ish, plus the playoffs.

But look at MLB. The entire 2020 regular season... zero tickets sold.

The Toronto Blue Jays were 21st in MLB payroll in 2019, at $117 million. No ticket sales, had to SPEND millions more to play in Buffalo since they couldn't cross the border.

How bad did it hurt them? Payroll went UP to $135 million in 2021, to $171 million in 2022, and will be about $190-195 for 2023.

So the idea that low attendance means a team is doomed, is pretty much cooked.

 

[Stumbledore]

Everyone is just trying to find informational tidbits to fit their views

Including you, apparently.

 

[oknazevad]

He's not entirely wrong, though. The major sports leagues aren't really gate-driven anymore. It's mostly TV money that pays for everything. Heck, NFL teams cover their entire operating budgets, including player salaries, coaching staffs, and front offices, on their share of TV money alone. The NHL isn't quite that level, but neither are the NBA or MLB, and none of the three rely on ticket sales for their revenues. It's a made-for-TV world.

 

[Tawnos]

He's not entirely wrong, though. The major sports leagues aren't really gate-driven anymore. It's mostly TV money that pays for everything. Heck, NFL teams cover their entire operating budgets, including player salaries, coaching staffs, and front offices, on their share of TV money alone. The NHL isn't quite that level, but neither are the NBA or MLB, and none of the three rely on ticket sales for their revenues. It's a made-for-TV world.

I tend to look at attendance as a proxy for general engagement in the market overall. It doesn't matter a lot if a team is selling out every night in bottom line financial terms, but that does indicate really strong engagement from the market. It's also why I don't care much about the difference between 100% and 90%.

Similarly, low attendance does indicate low engagement from the market overall.

High or low engagement matters a lot for value of TV contracts, advertising, selling corporate suites, etc.

 

[TheLegend]

Tempe Councilman Randy Keating discusses the upcoming vote and addresses some of the claims by the opposition.

 

[TheLegend]

^^^^ Currently watching this so the only note so far are.

- Keating says the vote is mail only. All votes received by Maricopa County (who processes all city elections within) prior to the May 19 date will have been counted. In-person voting on the 19th (as in drop offs) could be completed by 5pm the next day.

- Keating notes the opposition campaign very well organized. (A former Tempe council member is being suggested as the lead organizer)

- Keating thinks the proposal would pass today but it’s going to get down to how each side presents itself and informs the public.

Keating mentions something I didn’t know before now that a member of Tempe city staff who working on the TED proposal was on Glendale’s city staff for many of the previous Coyotes ownerships and thinks this proposal is a good one.

 

[Devils 3silverones]

^^^^ Currently watching this so the only note so far are.

- Keating says the vote is mail only. All votes received by Maricopa County (who processes all city elections within) prior to the May 19 date will have been counted. In-person voting on the 19th (as in drop offs) could be completed by 5pm the next day.

- Keating notes the opposition campaign very well organized. (A former Tempe council member is being suggested as the lead organizer)

- Keating thinks the proposal would pass today but it’s going to get down to how each side presents itself and informs the public.

Keating mentions something I didn’t know before now that a member of Tempe city staff who working on the TED proposal was on Glendale’s city staff for many of the previous Coyotes ownerships and thinks this proposal is a good one.

Good update. Thank you.
I have looked into city staff member.
I am in the understanding that this will pass.
I have NO actual proof. None of us do.
Gut feeling. It's a go.
Happy weekend Legend.

 

[Rob]

If the referendum succeeds how quickly can they get an arena built?

 

[TheLegend]

If the referendum succeeds how quickly can they get an arena built?

This is a rough estimate......

6 months for land remediation, and 22-24 months to build the arena. But there are a few other steps thrown into the mix that will add time.

So minimum three years is a good estimate.

The DDA (Exhibit D) specifies up to 40 months total for Phase 1A which includes the arena, parking garage, and base infrastructure.

 

[sawchuk1971]

Desert Diamond Arena, former home of Arizona Coyotes, had record revenue year in 2022​

Desert Diamond Arena, former Coyotes home, had record revenue year

Desert Diamond Arena, the former Glendale home of the Arizona Coyotes, said it had a record-breaking revenue year in 2022.

ktar.com

 

[TheLegend]

Desert Diamond Arena, former home of Arizona Coyotes, had record revenue year in 2022​

Desert Diamond Arena, former Coyotes home, had record revenue year

Desert Diamond Arena, the former Glendale home of the Arizona Coyotes, said it had a record-breaking revenue year in 2022.

ktar.com

That’s gross income.

It also included 28 Coyotes home games.


Nice try. But you’re pumping the tires on a short term moral “victory” while ignoring the real end game here. What will they do if/when a third arena comes into play?

Glendale has been betting on stopping the Coyotes from doing that for the last 10 years. According to their own “research” they need at least 20 “major” level events to offset the 41 hockey games they lost.

They made a big splash about PBR League becoming an anchor tenant (they actually occupy the old Coyotes facilities in the arena) and that gives them two days worth a year.

Given the potential TED has from location alone (near downtown Phoenix, ASU and the airport) it’s going to have a distinct advantage over an arena that’s 12 miles out “in the middle of nowhere”.

If they have anything to build on here it’s the mega water resort currently under construction just south of Westgate (fall 2023 completion) that will be the largest of its kind in Arizona (~3000 rooms). But the resort even plans to hold their own events. More competition.

At least the new tax revenues will help offset what it’s still costing them at DDA.

 

[MNNumbers]

That’s gross income.

It also included 28 Coyotes home games.


Nice try. But you’re pumping the tires on a short term moral “victory” while ignoring the real end game here. What will they do if/when a third arena comes into play?

Glendale has been betting on stopping the Coyotes from doing that for the last 10 years. According to their own “research” they need at least 20 “major” level events to offset the 41 hockey games they lost.

They made a big splash about PBR League becoming an anchor tenant (they actually occupy the old Coyotes facilities in the arena) and that gives them two days worth a year.

Given the potential TED has from location alone (near downtown Phoenix, ASU and the airport) it’s going to have a distinct advantage over an arena that’s 12 miles out “in the middle of nowhere”.

If they have anything to build on here it’s the mega water resort currently under construction just south of Westgate (fall 2023 completion) that will be the largest of its kind in Arizona (~3000 rooms). But the resort even plans to hold their own events. More competition.

At least the new tax revenues will help offset what it’s still costing them at DDA.

I honestly don't see why this is relevant at all. Coyotes aren't going back there. 8-10 years ago, SMG offered Glendale a management contract without the Coyotes which was better than the offer 'with' the Coyotes, mainly because the arena gets little from hockey game nights because the team gets everything. But, that's not relevant either. Coyotes aren't going back there. If TED comes to be, the Coyotes will be in good shape. If not, then there is a lot to talk about here.

 

[TheLegend]

I honestly don't see why this is relevant at all. Coyotes aren't going back there. 8-10 years ago, SMG offered Glendale a management contract without the Coyotes which was better than the offer 'with' the Coyotes, mainly because the arena gets little from hockey game nights because the team gets everything. But, that's not relevant either. Coyotes aren't going back there. If TED comes to be, the Coyotes will be in good shape. If not, then there is a lot to talk about here.

It isn’t. I believe they had a similar article not long ago saying they had a great year with the Coyotes still there. But people want to think this is some sort of “gotcha” at the Coyotes. It isn’t.

And I agree that if TED gets voted down by the voters we’re going to find out fast how big “Plan B” is…. If it actually exists.

Now if you really want to see some prefabricated media manipulation this article popped into my timeline this morning.

Arizona's terrible NHL team is begging voters for $200 million to build a permanent home, but stadiums are consistently huge money pits

This May, voters will decide if they want to turn 1.5 tons of garbage into a sparkling new arena and entertainment complex. It's trash either way.

www.businessinsider.com

This writer is in DC and does political articles Business Insider. Formerly he was with WaPo.

My unabashed opinion is someone or group who’s in opposition to TED sent him a few talking points and he Googled his way through the rest. So the “No” campaign is out of the gate with a big “misinfo” push.