CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena

[AZDesertKnight]

Tempe sends Coyotes arena to voters as Bettman promises no public costs (there will be public costs)

www.fieldofschemes.com/2022/11/30/19429/tempe-sends-coyotes-arena-to-voters-as-bettman-promises-no-public-costs-there-will-be-public-costs/

This guy is getting revenue from ads and clicks..

My understanding of the city council decision remains the same:

There is no automatic referendum scheduled for May 16th.

If the Coyotes don't gather the signatures for a referendum, the City of Tempe has a three month option to revoke their approval of the DDA. Which of course isn't going to happen.

If a opposition group gathers enough signatures for a May 16th referendum then it will be on the ballot.

So, I'm confused by this what if nobody gathers signatures to get it on the ballot, does the DDA approval move forward or what?

 

[Tawnos]

Haven't been following this as closely as before. But my understanding was that the city and team need approuvals in 2022 (to be vague) to go ahead and open the arena by 2024.

I guess, if there is an referendum on May 16th, how does that influence the Coyotes having to play extra year-or more at ASU ?

A secondary question : Is it mandatory for an referendum at this point, or if by established deadline no one opposes to the DDA/gathers enough signatures for a referendum, the city and team simply go ahead with their proposed projet ? I am not sure how this aspect affects them. Feels like everyone wants the referendum but I am just not sure if the lack of oppositon to the project could mean a green light without having to make it a referendum question.

If no one gathers enough signatures, there is no referendum and the plan moves forward.

Edit: Per the article below, the team itself is going to be filing the petition and collecting the signatures to get it on the ballot. It'll happen.

 

[TheLegend]

Haven't been following this as closely as before. But my understanding was that the city and team need approuvals in 2022 (to be vague) to go ahead and open the arena by 2024.

I guess, if there is an referendum on May 16th, how does that influence the Coyotes having to play extra year-or more at ASU ?

A secondary question : Is it mandatory for an referendum at this point, or if by established deadline no one opposes to the DDA/gathers enough signatures for a referendum, the city and team simply go ahead with their proposed projet ? I am not sure how this aspect affects them. Feels like everyone wants the referendum but I am just not sure if the lack of oppositon to the project could mean a green light without having to make it a referendum question.

It pushes back the start of construction 6 months. They’re looking at a 2025 completion now. They have an option to play at ASU a fourth year if it was needed.

The referendum was set because they expected someone would try to use it to stop the proposal and by doing it themselves they controlled the timeline. Otherwise it could have ended up getting pushed to November of 2023 costing another 6 months. Meruelo is covering the $250k cost of this special election.

Coyotes had moved to Glendale during the middle of the 2003-04 season so they could also do a similar moved here if needed.

 

[TheLegend]

Unlocked…

From nail biter to unanimous support: Coyotes’ arena and entertainment district proposal moves forward after 7-0 vote by Tempe City Council - PHNX Sports

Early in the Coyotes’ bid to build an arena and entertainment district along the south bank of the Salt River, there was a strong possibility that the Tempe

www.gophnx.com

 

[aqib]

Tempe sends Coyotes arena to voters as Bettman promises no public costs (there will be public costs)

www.fieldofschemes.com/2022/11/30/19429/tempe-sends-coyotes-arena-to-voters-as-bettman-promises-no-public-costs-there-will-be-public-costs/

Hey Llama19 - there is a link to an AZ Central article in the Field of Schemes post but its paywalled. Can you let us know what it says?

 

[Dirty Old Man]

This guy is getting revenue from ads and clicks..

Yup, same amateur as yesterday. Disregarded.

But hey, some of you, feel free to come on down and spread the misinformation because you don't want hockey here in Arizona. They have even had the decency to do the signature gathering in winter so you don't have to roast while you canvas.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Unlocked…

From nail biter to unanimous support: Coyotes’ arena and entertainment district proposal moves forward after 7-0 vote by Tempe City Council - PHNX Sports

Early in the Coyotes’ bid to build an arena and entertainment district along the south bank of the Salt River, there was a strong possibility that the Tempe

www.gophnx.com

“My guess is there will be a number of critics with other agendas who will try and confuse the issues and the facts,,” NHL commissioner Gary Bettman said.

It's like he lives in this forum!

 

[Roadrage]

Missed Bettman's comments but he confirmed the 30-year non-relocation agreement will be there.

30 years would be just in time for a new arena. See everyone on this board in about 28 years!

As much as this saga has dragged on, I really hope the Coyotes are successful long term when the arena is finished. It would be a crappy look/situation for both the NHL and Coyotes if the team can't sell out every game for at least the first 2-3 years of the arena in a brand new era considering everyone's been saying that a large majority of their fanbase is in the East Valley. Should not hear anymore "Too far or long to drive on a weeknight"

 

[Tawnos]

30 years would be just in time for a new arena. See everyone on this board in about 28 years!

As much as this saga has dragged on, I really hope the Coyotes are successful long term when the arena is finished. It would be a crappy look/situation for both the NHL and Coyotes if the team can't sell out every game for at least the first 2-3 years of the arena in a brand new era considering everyone's been saying that a large majority of their fanbase is in the East Valley. Should not hear anymore "Too far or long to drive on a weeknight"

I mean, the arena location is only one component of getting to regular sellouts. Feels a little like this is setting up a target specifically to miss. Other factors include the quality of the on-ice product (like in every market), healing the team's relationship with the area, and a strong marketing push. All of those things are likely going to take time. I don't know anyone who claims the arena location is the only challenge to overcome.

 

[mouser]

Haven't been following this as closely as before. But my understanding was that the city and team need approuvals in 2022 (to be vague) to go ahead and open the arena by 2024.

I guess, if there is an referendum on May 16th, how does that influence the Coyotes having to play extra year-or more at ASU ?

A secondary question : Is it mandatory for an referendum at this point, or if by established deadline no one opposes to the DDA/gathers enough signatures for a referendum, the city and team simply go ahead with their proposed projet ? I am not sure how this aspect affects them. Feels like everyone wants the referendum but I am just not sure if the lack of oppositon to the project could mean a green light without having to make it a referendum question.

This guy is getting revenue from ads and clicks..


So, I'm confused by this what if nobody gathers signatures to get it on the ballot, does the DDA approval move forward or what?

My understanding: a referendum is not mandatory.

If the Coyotes/Bluebird do not get a referendum on the ballot then the city of Tempe has the option to revoke the DDA.

 

[sh724]

From the 12news.com website...poll ahead of tonight's Tempe vote...results as of this post...

SHOULD TAXPAYERS FUND SPORTS STADIUMS?

Absolutely - 12%
No Way - 88%

www.12news.com/bullhorn

---

The Tempe council will very likely...vote not for approving the actual proposal...but will be voting to place the issue...in a referendum...should enough signatures are gathered by the deadline...for the Tempe voters...to approve or reject...in a special election in May 2023...

Lots of 'stuff' will be happening between now and then...for sure...

Lets save the completely non scientific polls for the main boards. I think most of us come to the business section as we dont want to deal with such nonsense. Polls like that on random websites have been proven to have no basis in reality.

While it is possible the general consensus is against the proposal, that poll, or any other poll conducted in a similar manner, should not be realied upon for evidence of anything.

I am sure there are plenty of website polls out there that say covid wasnt real, the holocaust didnt happen, Elvis is still alive, etc.

 

[sh724]

Tempe sends Coyotes arena to voters as Bettman promises no public costs (there will be public costs)

www.fieldofschemes.com/2022/11/30/19429/tempe-sends-coyotes-arena-to-voters-as-bettman-promises-no-public-costs-there-will-be-public-costs/

From my understanding $0 of public funds are going directly to the arena, therefore no public funds are being spent on the arena. The author is attempting to throw out Bettman's usage of semantics while inserting his own semantics and claiming his are superior and should be believe over all others.

The more obvious someone's bias is the less creditability they have

 

[sh724]

I mean, the arena location is only one component of getting to regular sellouts. Feels a little like this is setting up a target specifically to miss. Other factors include the quality of the on-ice product (like in every market), healing the team's relationship with the area, and a strong marketing push. All of those things are likely going to take time. I don't know anyone who claims the arena location is the only challenge to overcome.

Realistically for both Muerelo and Tempe the team is only a small part of the equation. I doubt anyone expectes the Yotes to be profitable long term, espcially when you consider most NHL team are not.

You need a team to get awareded the development but you need the development to cover the teams losses. The goal is for the outside revenues to be greater than the losses of the team plus whatever the desired ROI is.

Tempe may not want an NHL team but they want the development and in order to get the development they have to accept the team. The 30 year non relo clause is to show Muerello's commitment to the project as a whole and not to the team.

If the team is direcly tied to the development then whomever owns the team has a financial stake in making sure the development is successful. The team failed in Glendale because Westgate didnt develop as proposed and then was disconnected from the team.

 

[Devils 3silverones]

Lets save the completely non scientific polls for the main boards. I think most of us come to the business section as we dont want to deal with such nonsense. Polls like that on random websites have been proven to have no basis in reality.

While it is possible the general consensus is against the proposal, that poll, or any other poll conducted in a similar manner, should not be realied upon for evidence of anything.

I am sure there are plenty of website polls out there that say covid wasnt real, the holocaust didnt happen, Elvis is still alive, etc.

So...
Polls are to be taken on which premise?
What are expected, are given, or are factual?

Polls, by definition are opinion on which the participant provides their "choice".

While I understand your thought in the matter at hand, examples you have provided, are not in the same realm as a sports/owner/city/fan/ analogy.
My opinion.

 

[sh724]

So...
Polls are to be taken on which premise?
What are expected, are given, or are factual?

Polls, by definition are opinion on which the participant provides their "choice".

While I understand your thought in the matter at hand, examples you have provided, are not in the same realm as a sports/owner/city/fan/ analogy.
My opinion.

There is not a universal standard for "scientific polls" however, if you are curious of the general concensus you are free to read up on it as much as youd like.

Obviously polls are inherently not 100% accurate, the goal of a scientific poll is to minimize the margin of error to an acceptable level. A public poll on a public website has no mechanisms for margin of error mitigation.

The topics i referenced were not meant to draw a correlation with sports team ownership, but to draw a correlation to the quality of online polling as i was commenting on the quality of online polls. I was not commenting on sports/owner/city/fan therefore, the given examples had nothing to do with sports/owner/city/fan.

 

[Roadrage]

I mean, the arena location is only one component of getting to regular sellouts. Feels a little like this is setting up a target specifically to miss. Other factors include the quality of the on-ice product (like in every market), healing the team's relationship with the area, and a strong marketing push. All of those things are likely going to take time. I don't know anyone who claims the arena location is the only challenge to overcome.

I agree with you on the other factors. The Coyotes are now on the clock to get the healing/marketing push done in 4 years (guessing it will take that long to get arena built and ready for the team). As for successful on-ice product, that's up to the scouting department/management to find the right players and system to implement. Need a clear vision and stick to it.

 

[Tawnos]

Realistically for both Muerelo and Tempe the team is only a small part of the equation. I doubt anyone expectes the Yotes to be profitable long term, espcially when you consider most NHL team are not.

You need a team to get awareded the development but you need the development to cover the teams losses. The goal is for the outside revenues to be greater than the losses of the team plus whatever the desired ROI is.

Tempe may not want an NHL team but they want the development and in order to get the development they have to accept the team. The 30 year non relo clause is to show Muerello's commitment to the project as a whole and not to the team.

If the team is direcly tied to the development then whomever owns the team has a financial stake in making sure the development is successful. The team failed in Glendale because Westgate didnt develop as proposed and then was disconnected from the team.

FWIW, I don't personally believe that most NHL teams are not profitable. But that's a discussion for another time and another place.

Specifically regarding the Coyotes, viewing the team as a loss leader for the entirety of TED is something that makes sense. It allows for the time needed to get the rest of it to catch up. If done right, the market will eventually be similar to other success stories we've seen, but it doesn't happen simply because the arena is there.

I agree with you on the other factors. The Coyotes are now on the clock to get the healing/marketing push done in 4 years (guessing it will take that long to get arena built and ready for the team). As for successful on-ice product, that's up to the scouting department/management to find the right players and system to implement. Need a clear vision and stick to it.

I don't think the clock starts on those other factors until they're in the new building.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Yeah, I don't see much risk to Tempe here. This isn't the wacky Glendale deal, where the municipality is giving oodles of money to an already existing building, this appears to be a pretty normal development.

Good for the NHL/New Ownership. I was very skeptical when the Tempe plan was announced, but it appears to be clearing hurdles easily right now.

 

[sh724]

FWIW, I don't personally believe that most NHL teams are not profitable. But that's a discussion for another time and another place.

Specifically regarding the Coyotes, viewing the team as a loss leader for the entirety of TED is something that makes sense. It allows for the time needed to get the rest of it to catch up. If done right, the market will eventually be similar to other success stories we've seen, but it doesn't happen simply because the arena is there.



I don't think the clock starts on those other factors until they're in the new building.

Part of my job is analyzing business financials for business with annual revenues between $25MM and $1B for one of the top 10 banks in the US. While i dont deal with sports teams, those are part of a specialty group, i am well aware of accounting losses vs economic losses. That is why we use all of our own formulas for determining the financial strength of a business.

I agree sports teams, really most businesses, have much higher economic profits then accounting profits.

In Muerelo's case, since he owns many businesses in varying complimentary industries it would easy for him to move money around from one to another. The first thing that comes to mind are marketing contracts with the team.

 

[Devils 3silverones]

There is not a universal standard for "scientific polls" however, if you are curious of the general concensus you are free to read up on it as much as youd like.

Obviously polls are inherently not 100% accurate, the goal of a scientific poll is to minimize the margin of error to an acceptable level. A public poll on a public website has no mechanisms for margin of error mitigation.

The topics i referenced were not meant to draw a correlation with sports team ownership, but to draw a correlation to the quality of online polling as i was commenting on the quality of online polls. I was not commenting on sports/owner/city/fan therefore, the given examples had nothing to do with sports/owner/city/fan.

Agreed. Kinda.
Your use of examples then, are not relevant. And poorly placed.
There is no correlation to this situation.

 

[sh724]

Agreed. Kinda.
Your use of examples then, are not relevant. And poorly placed.
There is no correlation to this situation.

My point is that these types of polls are trash reagrdless of the content of the poll. The correlation is they all use the same type of poll and the results have no merit.

I agree the Yotes situation is very unique, but i am not commenting on the Yotes situation. I am commenting on someone posting an internet poll as if they have value, when they do not.

 

[Devils 3silverones]

My point is that these types of polls are trash reagrdless of the content of the poll. The correlation is they all use the same type of poll and the results have no merit.

I agree the Yotes situation is very unique, but i am not commenting on the Yotes situation. I am commenting on someone posting an internet poll as if they have value, when they do not.

I completely agree. While polls DO suggest a "leaning" or favorable tilt, they are indeed ... Trash.
I appreaciate your feedback.

 

[Takuto Maruki]

6 miles of lakefront is undeveloped and the lakefront isn't connected to downtown (there is a major bluff but also a stupid elevated highway, also a private airport taking up 450 acres of lakefront land)

Hey, the airport needs to stay. Cleveland might get an Indycar race again someday.

 

[TheLegend]

If no one gathers enough signatures, there is no referendum and the plan moves forward.

Edit: Per the article below, the team itself is going to be filing the petition and collecting the signatures to get it on the ballot. It'll happen.

The requirement is just under 2200 valid signatures from Tempe residents who are registered to vote. Normally you go above that 10-20% in case of those that get rejected so you shoot for about 2500. In a city of 184,000 that should not be too difficult.

EDIT: Listening to Craig Morgan on the local GoPHNX podcast. He says the Coyotes were geared up and ready to begin this morning to gather signatures and feel they can have the required number in a few short days.

There are three petitions involved, and they need the same number of signatures for each person but one person can sign all three.

 

[Beerfish]

30 years would be just in time for a new arena. See everyone on this board in about 28 years!

As much as this saga has dragged on, I really hope the Coyotes are successful long term when the arena is finished. It would be a crappy look/situation for both the NHL and Coyotes if the team can't sell out every game for at least the first 2-3 years of the arena in a brand new era considering everyone's been saying that a large majority of their fanbase is in the East Valley. Should not hear anymore "Too far or long to drive on a weeknight"

Just like the Oilers arena deal total 100% scam. Bettman is PT Barnum and city councils are the suckers in these cities.