CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena

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awfulwaffle

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Fine print shows: Coyotes’ privately funded arena could cost taxpayers over $500m

Source: www.fieldofschemes.com/2022/11/28/19409/fine-print-shows-coyotes-privately-funded-arena-could-cost-taxpayers-over-500m/

You can look at it however you want, but they aren't getting ANY money from the landfill as it is now. So why people are factoring in lost tax revenue as a loss to the city, boggles my mind. This happens EVERYWHERE! Plenty of companies and entities receive tax breaks and many other incentives to entice people to move in and build. I highly doubt the city would be able to find an entity to come in and say "Hey, you pay your own money to build something, and you will get 0 tax breaks whatsoever". Misleading headlines are just click bait. They nailed it.
 

TheLegend

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Fine print shows: Coyotes’ privately funded arena could cost taxpayers over $500m

Source: www.fieldofschemes.com/2022/11/28/19409/fine-print-shows-coyotes-privately-funded-arena-could-cost-taxpayers-over-500m/
We’ll just a quick glance at his article he’s already got it wrong on the bonds.

The CFD will be issuing the bonds. Not the City of Tempe. The CFD is it’s own legal entity. It’s right in the packet and was clearly defined at the last meeting. Nothing “fine print” about that. The one caveat to it is the interest rate will be higher than it would be if the city itself took them out.

He goes on with a lot more scary stuff and “whatifisms.” But he clearly cherry picked the agreement.
 
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Dirty Old Man

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We’ll just a quick glance at his article he’s already got it wrong on the bonds.

The CFD will be issuing the bonds. Not the City of Tempe. The CFD is it’s own legal entity. It’s right in the packet and was clearly defined at the last meeting. Nothing “fine print” about that. The one caveat to it is the interest rate will be higher than it would be if the city itself took them out.

He goes on with a lot more scary stuff and “whatifisms.” But he clearly cherry picked the agreement.

looks like one guy in the comments is onto him already
 

TheLegend

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looks like one guy in the comments is onto him already
… and another one I recognized who patted him on the back.

His “analysis” is just sloppy, and a bit too sensationalized to be taken seriously. For someone who proclaims himself to be an expert he’s more into his site clicks than any real breakdown.
 
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Ernie

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You can look at it however you want, but they aren't getting ANY money from the landfill as it is now. So why people are factoring in lost tax revenue as a loss to the city, boggles my mind. This happens EVERYWHERE! Plenty of companies and entities receive tax breaks and many other incentives to entice people to move in and build. I highly doubt the city would be able to find an entity to come in and say "Hey, you pay your own money to build something, and you will get 0 tax breaks whatsoever". Misleading headlines are just click bait. They nailed it.

The city would be better off leaving the land empty than giving a $500m handout to a two bit grifter like Meruelo.
 

TheLegend

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Well his statement is technically correct, Tempe would be better off not giving AM a check for $0.5B... they would also be better off not giving *anyone* a check for $0.5B...although I will take one should they offer it.
Technically speaking….. Meruelo isn’t what I would call a grifter. It’s going to cost him $2.1 billion (plus interest) just to get a quarter of that back. Not to mention he’s probably sank $50-60 million into his “grift” already.
 

mouser

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A part of me wonders how much of the consternation with regards to the handouts would be happening if this was strictly related to ASU and *not* the Coyotes.

Worth noting Tempe has already granted 8 year GPLETs on dozens of big development projects, which likely total over $10B of development investment, maybe even $20B. I can’t easily find any summary of how much in “handouts” Tempe has granted for all this development, but I expect it substantially exceeds tax abatements for the Arena project. Haven’t seen a backlash of complaints against any of those GPLETs.

What makes the Arena project unique compared to these other developer agreements:
- Request of a 30 year GPLET on the Arena itself, plus a few much smaller pieces of the project. Most other construction in the proposal is 8 year GPLET.
- The use of a CFD. Of which the majority of money will be spent on remediating Tempe owned land (a garage dump landfill). That Tempe owned land currently holds negative value due to the anticipated land remediation costs exceeding the value of the land post remediation.
 
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TheLegend

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Worth noting Tempe has already granted 8 year GPLETs on dozens of big development projects, which likely total over $10B of development investment. I can’t easily find any summary of how much in “handouts” Tempe has granted for all this development, but I expect it substantially exceeds tax abatements for the Arena project. Haven’t seen a backlash of complaints against any of those GPLETs.

What makes the Arena project unique is:
- request of a 30 year GPLET on the Arena itself, plus a few much smaller pieces of the project.
- The use of a CFD. Of which the majority of money will be spent on remediating Tempe owned land that currently holds negative value.

There is a lawsuit filed against the South Pier project, but that’s over low cost housing and not the GPLET.

Low cost housing is a big thing these days and Tempe is no different. Add in that it’s also a university based city only amplifies it. We already saw this at the June 2nd meeting and I have no doubt TED is going to see that same pressure.
 

Fatass

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Why does this new arena have to be such a messy business? Just get started building already so the club gets to for sure stay in Arizona.
 

TheLegend

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Why does this new arena have to be such a messy business? Just get started building already so the club gets to for sure stay in Arizona.
Well for starters it’s going where a land fill is right now. :laugh:

I get ya though.

Any project like this is going to be a long process. The big issue here is with all the baggage Alex Meruelo inherited from the previous ownerships. He didn’t help himself much either with the issues he had with Glendale but he did make good on them and since that point he’s avoided tripping over any more land mines.
 

aqib

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We’ll just a quick glance at his article he’s already got it wrong on the bonds.

The CFD will be issuing the bonds. Not the City of Tempe. The CFD is it’s own legal entity. It’s right in the packet and was clearly defined at the last meeting. Nothing “fine print” about that. The one caveat to it is the interest rate will be higher than it would be if the city itself took them out.

He goes on with a lot more scary stuff and “whatifisms.” But he clearly cherry picked the agreement.

That's Neil deMause's entire schtick. He hates on every deal regardless. There are a couple of occasions he and I went back and forth about a few things. Like once I pointed out the income taxes on players salaries and he was like "well if there were no sports people would spend their money on other things and those places would have to hire more people." If people who would be going to games go to movies and out to dinner instead the extra waiters and ticket takers won't generate the same payroll taxes as an NFL team would. There was another instance where the Browns were looking for infrastructure basically to connect downtown to the lakefront. He kept calling it "stupid infrastructure" If you haven't been to Cleveland, its one of the most poorly planned cities in America. 6 miles of lakefront is undeveloped and the lakefront isn't connected to downtown (there is a major bluff but also a stupid elevated highway, also a private airport taking up 450 acres of lakefront land) I was like "Browns or not that infrastructure is needed" and laid out my case and literally everyone who knew Cleveland was in agreement. Him and his minions referred to satellite images and told me I was wrong about a city a lived in for 13 years.

That being said there are a few things:

1) yes it makes sense to kickback property taxes that wouldn't exist but-for the development
2) If the development will result in additional costs to the municipality to service (like more cops needed on event days etc) then yes its still a net cost vs a landfill
3) Even if its a net cost on the development itself you can make it up through additional sales taxes and higher property tax revenue from surrounding areas via an uplift in property values and more commercial activity. This will be hard to measure and guys like deMause will always poo-poo that.
4) Even if it is a cash-flow loss, not every deal is a cash flow win. You do things as a city for quality of life. I voted for cigarette taxes when I was a smoker for stadiums because I like sports and liked having nice stadiums to watch them in. If Tempe residents think Tempe would be more fun if an arena was there they won't care if it costs them $20 a year or whatever in taxes
5) The one wrench in all this is that the RFP was specifically written for the Coyotes. Unless the site could have an MLS stadium there was no one else who could have bid. If the RFP was open then you could compare Coyotes with other proposals and see whats the best option
 
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AZDesertKnight

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That's Neil deMause's entire schtick. He hates on every deal regardless. There are a couple of occasions he and I went back and forth about a few things. Like once I pointed out the income taxes on players salaries and he was like "well if there were no sports people would spend their money on other things and those places would have to hire more people." If people who would be going to games go to movies and out to dinner instead the extra waiters and ticket takers won't generate the same payroll taxes as an NFL team would. There was another instance where the Browns were looking for infrastructure basically to connect downtown to the lakefront. He kept calling it "stupid infrastructure" If you haven't been to Cleveland, its one of the most poorly planned cities in America. 6 miles of lakefront is undeveloped and the lakefront isn't connected to downtown (there is a major bluff but also a stupid elevated highway, also a private airport taking up 450 acres of lakefront land) I was like "Browns or not that infrastructure is needed" and laid out my case and literally everyone who knew Cleveland was in agreement. Him and his minions referred to satellite images and told me I was wrong about a city a lived in for 13 years.

That being said there are a few things:

1) yes it makes sense to kickback property taxes that wouldn't exist but-for the development
2) If the development will result in additional costs to the municipality to service (like more cops needed on event days etc) then yes its still a net cost vs a landfill
3) Even if its a net cost on the development itself you can make it up through additional sales taxes and higher property tax revenue from surrounding areas via an uplift in property values and more commercial activity. This will be hard to measure and guys like deMause will always poo-poo that.
4) Even if it is a cash-flow loss, not every deal is a cash flow win. You do things as a city for quality of life. I voted for cigarette taxes when I was a smoker for stadiums because I like sports and liked having nice stadiums to watch them in. If Tempe residents think Tempe would be more fun if an arena was there they won't care if it costs them $20 a year or whatever in taxes
5) The one wrench in all this is that the RFP was specifically written for the Coyotes. Unless the site could have an MLS stadium there was no one else who could have bid. If the RFP was open then you could compare Coyotes with other proposals and see whats the best option
The RFP could've been responded by Phoenix Rising or even the suns, or rattlers. etc. there were other teams out there
 

aqib

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The RFP could've been responded by Phoenix Rising or even the suns, or rattlers. etc. there were other teams out there
The Suns weren't going to respond to it since they already had a deal to renovate their arena downtown. The Rattlers would never have their own arena, come on now that's ridiculous. As for the Rising, it would only make sense if they were upgrading to MLS, it wouldn't make sense to spend $40-70 million to remediate a site for a USL stadium. If they had an open RFP that didn't specify a sports facility then you could have an idea what the real value of the site is when you rig it like this you don't know
 

TheLegend

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The Suns weren't going to respond to it since they already had a deal to renovate their arena downtown. The Rattlers would never have their own arena, come on now that's ridiculous. As for the Rising, it would only make sense if they were upgrading to MLS, it wouldn't make sense to spend $40-70 million to remediate a site for a USL stadium. If they had an open RFP that didn't specify a sports facility then you could have an idea what the real value of the site is when you rig it like this you don't know
You're missing the point of the RFP process.

Coyotes spent two years negotiating this deal before it even came to that.

So for all we know.... Tempe had no plans for that property at all until the Coyotes came to them with an initial proposal. When you go to a land owner and make a proposal to buy an develop that land the owner could just set an agreed on price and be done with it.

BUT.... Tempe is a public entity, and Arizona law requires them to have an open bidding process on every capital expenditure transaction. Hence the RFP.

What Tempe did was: "We have an offer from a party to buy this land from us an develop it in this manner. Any other interested party interested in the same can submit a competing bid for consideration."

If you looked at the number of RFPs and RFQs the city issues it's a very substantial list of things with very specific needs. This RFP was no different.
 

Stumbledore

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Any project like this is going to be a long process. The big issue here is with all the baggage Alex Meruelo inherited from the previous ownerships. He didn’t help himself much either with the issues he had with Glendale but he did make good on them and since that point he’s avoided tripping over any more land mines.
So we should expect him to pay his taxes this year?
 

edog37

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Why does this new arena have to be such a messy business? Just get started building already so the club gets to for sure stay in Arizona.
have you not seen the mess in Calgary & Ottawa? Given the amount of these projects & what goes into it, it's not that simple. These are significant capital investments.
 

AZDesertKnight

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have you not seen the mess in Calgary & Ottawa? Given the amount of these projects & what goes into it, it's not that simple. These are significant capital investments.
Not to mention, Murray Edwards in Calgary isn't paying $2.1 billion of his own financing and he is 1000% going to want at least 50% from the City and Province in cold hard investment up front. Willing to bet we won't see the Canadian public financing police complaining about that.
 
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TheLegend

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How the hell is this still a topic of conversation?

The bills were sent to the Phoenix Coyotes (The team was Arizona Coyotes) at a different address from their arena offices..

Keep stumbling..

It's actually a legitimate question given how it's been framed in the media.

If Meruelo was honest about him opening his books to Tempe they'll already know.
 
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aqib

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You're missing the point of the RFP process.

Coyotes spent two years negotiating this deal before it even came to that.

So for all we know.... Tempe had no plans for that property at all until the Coyotes came to them with an initial proposal. When you go to a land owner and make a proposal to buy an develop that land the owner could just set an agreed on price and be done with it.

BUT.... Tempe is a public entity, and Arizona law requires them to have an open bidding process on every capital expenditure transaction. Hence the RFP.

What Tempe did was: "We have an offer from a party to buy this land from us an develop it in this manner. Any other interested party interested in the same can submit a competing bid for consideration."

If you looked at the number of RFPs and RFQs the city issues it's a very substantial list of things with very specific needs. This RFP was no different.

I get why the process unfolded the way it did. Just saying that there is no way to know if the city/taxpayers are getting a good or bad deal unless we know who else may have been interested in developing the site.
 

TheLegend

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I get why the process unfolded the way it did. Just saying that there is no way to know if the city/taxpayers are getting a good or bad deal unless we know who else may have been interested in developing the site.

The city hired a third-party consulting firm (Hunden Strategic Partners) for that purpose.

They voted in June to go forward based on that report.
 

Stumbledore

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How the hell is this still a topic of conversation?

The bills were sent to the Phoenix Coyotes (The team was Arizona Coyotes) at a different address from their arena offices..

Keep stumbling..
Yeah, I'm sure everyone knows that if you move during the year and the tax bill is sent to a different address then that means you get a pass on paying your state taxes that year.

It's a wonder more of us don't try this......

PS: I don't stumble any more. I've had both hips replaced with titanium ones. All for free, of course, since I live in Canada.
 
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