CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena

[Ernie]

I'm still patiently waiting for your repsonse to Legend's question.

I didn't see any question

 

[awfulwaffle]

I didn't see any question

He wanted your thoughts on what you meant by this.

Very interesting that it being attacked from both sides of the political spectrum.

It will be interesting to see whether the voters can see through all the financial sleight of hands going on.

Bottom line, this stadium will result in taxes increasing for Tempe residents down the road.

 

[Ernie]

He wanted your thoughts on what you meant by this.

Same thing as I've said before - the tax abatement means that city services like police, fire etc won't be covered by residents of the new development. So Tempe taxpayers will be on the hook.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I'm still patiently waiting for your repsonse to Legend's question.

I'd want to see the work using something like this as an example:

Tempe has no income tax that I know of, so their revenues are primarily through,,,property tax, yes? Like most municipalities? and their sales tax rate is 1.8%...

So, if I own, say, a $400,000 house in Tempe, how much will my annual taxes go up? And given the increase in value of my house the last 10 years, will I even notice the increase due to the arena vs due to the increase in my property's value? And will I care since my house is worth so much more now?

(a fair estimate for those property taxes currently would be $1500/yr - so an increase in the rate of 1% would be $1.25/month for me)

Even if they city came out in the 2030s and said "OMG we're screwed by this TED thing, we're gonna raise the sales tax rate" to, say 2.0%, an extra $1 per $500 spent, how much am I affected, exactly?

 

[TheLegend]

Same thing as I've said before - the tax abatement means that city services like police, fire etc won't be covered by residents of the new development. So Tempe taxpayers will be on the hook.

City is getting $40 million that’s non-refundable to do as they please with once the first shovel of dirt is dug.

They’re getting 3,000 sq ft. of class A office space for 30 years for free.

They’re getting 1,500 sq ft of space for first responders for free permanently.

They get 5 days use of the arena annually for free permanently for any kind of event.

They’re getting roughly $2 million (off the top of my head) annually in funds for various city programs.

After 8 years the city will get 100% of local property taxes assessed on all buildings outside the arena and music venue.

After 30 years the property taxes will kick in for the remaining parts of TED.

Clearly someone has not read the proposal.

 

[Lions67]

City is getting $40 million that’s non-refundable to do as they please with once the first shovel of dirt is dug.

They’re getting 3,000 sq ft. of class A office space for 30 years for free.

They’re getting 1,500 sq ft of space for first responders for free permanently.

They get 5 days use of the arena annually for free permanently for any kind of event.

They’re getting roughly $2 million (off the top of my head) annually in funds for various city programs.

After 8 years the city will get 100% of local property taxes assessed on all buildings outside the arena and music venue.

After 30 years the property taxes will kick in for the remaining parts of TED.

Clearly someone has not read the proposal.

I must say, if this actually transpires as you say it will, then that is one helluva deal for the city!
Who could argue those benefits?
But, let’s wait and see if your list remains intact by the time this is all done.
But that’s a solid deal for sure!

 

[mouser]

I must say, if this actually transpires as you say it will, then that is one helluva deal for the city!
Who could argue those benefits?
But, let’s wait and see if your list remains intact by the time this is all done.
But that’s a solid deal for sure!

The deal (DDA) is finalized and approved by Tempe city council—subject to approval by Tempe voters.

There is no allowance in the DDA for the Coyotes to renegotiate any of the items Legend listed.

 

[TheLegend]

Xavier Gutierrez during an interview at tonight's game with Boston announced they have turned in 6.000+ signatures to the Tempe city clerk to authenticate for the referendum.

They only need 2148 to qualify.

 

[mouser]

Xavier Gutierrez during an interview at tonight's game with Boston announced they have turned in 6.000+ signatures to the Tempe city clerk to authenticate for the referendum.

They only need 2148 to qualify.

That was quick. Ten days since the Tempe city council vote on Nov 29th to approve the DDA.

 

[Legion34]

The deal (DDA) is finalized and approved by Tempe city council—subject to approval by Tempe voters.

There is no allowance in the DDA for the Coyotes to renegotiate any of the items Legend listed.

There probably was no known allowance for the coyotes to renogiate contracts with vendors, not pay SB on time for players and “forget” to pay rent.

But it happened.


I don’t really care either way. Not sure if this will go through or what will happen of course but people have every right to be sceptical about everything the coyotes management has done…….

Seems like a deal that’s too good to be true from a guy who couldn’t pay the hotdog guy 6 months ago

 

[Fatass]

There probably was no known allowance for the coyotes to renogiate contracts with vendors, not pay SB on time for players and “forget” to pay rent.

But it happened.


I don’t really care either way. Not sure if this will go through or what will happen of course but people have every right to be sceptical about everything the coyotes management has done…….

Seems like a deal that’s too good to be true from a guy who couldn’t pay the hotdog guy 6 months ago

Seems like it’s up to the voters that pay the taxes there to decide whether they want the hockey team or not, no?

 

[Legion34]

Seems like it’s up to the voters that pay the taxes there to decide whether they want the hockey team or not, no?

Yes absolutely. As long as their elected representatives are actively making people aware of the history and potential risks. That’s the whole point. Otherwise people could just vote on everything

It seems like a really a really good deal IF he isn’t going to screw them over. Based on his previous history. I would be sceptical.

 

[TheLegend]

There probably was no known allowance for the coyotes to renogiate contracts with vendors, not pay SB on time for players and “forget” to pay rent.

But it happened.


I don’t really care either way. Not sure if this will go through or what will happen of course but people have every right to be sceptical about everything the coyotes management has done…….

Seems like a deal that’s too good to be true from a guy who couldn’t pay the hotdog guy 6 months ago

There’s also a big difference between taking over contracts and establishing them yourself.

 

[MNNumbers]

If the matter is actually going to referendum, it would seem there is no more room to complain about it.

Yes, you can say: "The devil is in the details. It's going to cost Tempe tax revenue in the future." But that argument seems to be more applicable to all development.

I'm beginning to trust Meruelo a little bit. He needs something besides the hockey team to make it work (we all know that, whether we admit it or not- if it weren't for arena revenue and other development associated with hockey arenas, only a few markets would be viable). He seems to want to do that in a way that doesn't demand a lot from the municipality.

Contrast with IA for example, who wanted to fill the gap with 15M/yr from Glendale, or even worse, 24M/yr form Tempe for building in conjunction with ASU.

This is a matter of: The owner actually has enough money to do it right.

Now, we hope that he continues to operate that way.

 

[Stumbledore]

There’s also a big difference between taking over contracts and establishing them yourself.

Most contracts that businessmen default on were established by themselves.

Most businesses that declare bankruptcy happen to first transfer resources to sister companies.

Most companies know they have to pay state taxes regardless of where the tax notice was mailed.

To say that Meruelo is no longer a risk and can be trusted cultivates a certain level of naivety.

 

[TheLegend]

Most contracts that businessmen default on were established by themselves.

Most businesses that declare bankruptcy happen to first transfer resources to sister companies.

Most companies know they have to pay state taxes regardless of where the tax notice was mailed.

To say that Meruelo is no longer a risk and can be trusted cultivates a certain level of naivety.

Never implied there’s no risk. There’s always risk.

But all we’ve heard on that front was the comments of a couple of disgruntled vendors. That’s not discounting their comments. But unless they actually show exactly how they were “mistreated” it’s all hear say.

And IIRC the Coyotes owned up to the state tax issue as their screw up and made good on it in less than 48 hours. Since then they’ve been thoroughly vetted by both ASU and the city of Tempe and neither has had any issues.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

If the matter is actually going to referendum, it would seem there is no more room to complain about it.

Yes, you can say: "The devil is in the details. It's going to cost Tempe tax revenue in the future." But that argument seems to be more applicable to all development.

I'm beginning to trust Meruelo a little bit. He needs something besides the hockey team to make it work (we all know that, whether we admit it or not- if it weren't for arena revenue and other development associated with hockey arenas, only a few markets would be viable). He seems to want to do that in a way that doesn't demand a lot from the municipality.

Contrast with IA for example, who wanted to fill the gap with 15M/yr from Glendale, or even worse, 24M/yr form Tempe for building in conjunction with ASU.

This is a matter of: The owner actually has enough money to do it right.

Now, we hope that we continues to operate that way.

It is weird seeing this deal discussed as if it were the Terrible deals laid at Glendale's feet.

"Pay us 15 million a year for an arena you already own" is a far cry from this pretty well thought out development proposal for a modern arena.

Even if I weren't a hockey fan in Tempe, having a vibrant arena full of concerts, conventions, and other events is a bonus.

You look at winnipeg - if we had a shitty, non-NHL arena, would we be the second city to get an AEW show in Canada?

 

[TheLegend]

It is weird seeing this deal discussed as if it were the Terrible deals laid at Glendale's feet.

"Pay us 15 million a year for an arena you already own" is a far cry from this pretty well thought out development proposal for a modern arena.

Even if I weren't a hockey fan in Tempe, having a vibrant arena full of concerts, conventions, and other events is a bonus.

You look at winnipeg - if we had a shitty, non-NHL arena, would we be the second city to get an AEW show in Canada?

Do you remember when it was “pay $100 million for parking you already own??”



I admit I was more naive about that stuff back in the day. Today I would be rolling my eyes out of my sockets.

 

[Legion34]

There’s also a big difference between taking over contracts and establishing them yourself.

No there isn’t? At all…..,

You can’t just not pay people because you don’t like the terms that you agreed to. If you don’t want to pay the vendors. Don’t buy the team.


That’s a crazy take

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Do you remember when it was “pay $100 million for parking you already own??”



I admit I was more naive about that stuff back in the day. Today I would be rolling my eyes out of my sockets.

You think it would have actually worked if the NHL didn't go through that situation with the Islanders?

In hidsight, It was clear those groups had no money, and needed the city's money to fund the purchase, or at least under-wright the loans needed to run the team. Which is exactly what happened in NY iirc.

Maybe hindsight is the wrong word for it though, because that was my suspicion all along.

 

[mouser]

There probably was no known allowance for the coyotes to renogiate contracts with vendors

I wouldn't assume that. Those sorts of contracts often have grievance, dispute remediation and opt-out clauses.

 

[TheLegend]

No there isn’t? At all…..,

You can’t just not pay people because you don’t like the terms that you agreed to. If you don’t want to pay the vendors. Don’t buy the team.


That’s a crazy take

You take over a franchise that’s bleeding money. First thing you do is cut costs and if the previous ownership made bad contracts you do what you can to renegotiate or cut them.

Meruelo is not a rookie at dealing with vendors. He knows what he can get and for how much.

 

[Takuto Maruki]

You look at winnipeg - if we had a shitty, non-NHL arena, would we be the second city to get an AEW show in Canada?

Admittedly, considering AEW's business model, it doesn't really matter what city gets a house show, since it isn't really the core of what AEW and Tony Khan's plan is, but I get what you're saying.

 

[gstommylee]

Very interesting that it being attacked from both sides of the political spectrum.

It will be interesting to see whether the voters can see through all the financial sleight of hands going on.

Bottom line, this stadium will result in taxes increasing for Tempe residents down the road.

And where does it say in the proposal that the arena will increase taxes... City is not putting anything into the building itself. The city is on the hook to clean up the land where TED will be built on. They are STILL going be on the hook to clean up the land even TED doesn't happen and something else happens instead....

 

[TheLegend]

And where does it say in the proposal that the arena will increase taxes... City is not putting anything into the building itself. The city is on the hook to clean up the land where TED will be built on. They are STILL going be on the hook to clean up the land even TED doesn't happen and something else happens instead....

To be fair about this…. The CFD that will be established (by the city) will have the power to make new assessments to the district if it finds itself under water to the bond repayments. But they only are applicable to those who would live and use TED itself . Not the rest of Tempe.

But… this deal isn’t like taking out $200 million all at once. They’re being taken out in four phases and each phase must be fully monetized before bonds can be taken out for the next.