CXLIII - UPDATED 6/3 - Coyotes arena deal takes next step after Tempe council votes to open negotiations

[Yukon Joe]

Why Sky Harbor officials are worried about Arizona Coyotes' proposed entertainment district

Source (Paywall): www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2022/05/26/sky-harbor-coyote-arena-development/9624291002/

Tempe leaders to vote June 2 on negotiating with Arizona Coyotes on proposed arena

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2022/05/26/tempe-vote-arizona-coyotes-arena-proposal-negotiations/9942762002/

Can you summarize or excerpt a portion?

 

[PCSPounder]

ok millenial.

I see that you’re really trying to get on my good side, especially before your edit when you were hedging your bet.

Which doesn’t matter. Major North American sports leagues are too shameless for your argument to be relevant. Even in Major League Soccer (only debatably major), where my season tickets lie, I have an owner who is currently identified by USA Today as the worst owner in two leagues for sitting on information regarding sexual assault by a coach that should have been reported to fans and the league… and then penned an open letter where he expressed that the organization was “reeling and devastated“ about things he knew about for 6 years… while hiding a domestic violence incident from MLS. It’s one thing to gain a hopeful wedge that the NHL will somehow be discredited by the ASU issue. I assure you they won’t.

Portland fans are far more likely to get rid of our owner, because we’re practiced at things like this… and our chances are about 15% because the local media soft-pedals everything and we’re only so good about getting the word out.

I’m not doubting that ASU students would raise a stink. I’m saying that I’m already living this and there are limits to the effectiveness of protests.

 

[Llama19]

Can you summarize or excerpt a portion?

Summary:

The property lines up with the airport’s two busiest runways and sits 10,000 feet east, or less than 2 miles, of the runway approach; Sky Harbor officials raised concerns about its proximity to runways, air traffic noise, etc.; and potential $264 million economic hit during the project's construction.

Coyotes did not accurately address the "most important obstacle" raised by officials — the incompatible land use of residential units so close to the airport.

Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University professor Kyle Wilkerson, who specializes in air traffic, pointed out two major factors: busy airport means bigger economic hits by construction disruptions, and high temperatures can require more space for takeoffs and landings, including increased noise during lower flying aircraft when it's hot.

Developments under flight paths need FAA approval, in addition to local sign offs, and nothing has been approved because there has been only 'talks' between the Coyotes and the airport.

 

[fryfunk]

I see that you’re really trying to get on my good side, especially before your edit when you were hedging your bet.

Which doesn’t matter. Major North American sports leagues are too shameless for your argument to be relevant. Even in Major League Soccer (only debatably major), where my season tickets lie, I have an owner who is currently identified by USA Today as the worst owner in two leagues for sitting on information regarding sexual assault by a coach that should have been reported to fans and the league… and then penned an open letter where he expressed that the organization was “reeling and devastated“ about things he knew about for 6 years… while hiding a domestic violence incident from MLS.

None of this has anything to do with universities.

It’s one thing to gain a hopeful wedge that the NHL will somehow be discredited by the ASU issue. I assure you they won’t.

As I said 15 times over it's 1 vulnerability among many.

Portland fans are far more likely to get rid of our owner, because we’re practiced at things like this… and our chances are about 15% because the local media soft-pedals everything and we’re only so good about getting the word out.

I’m not doubting that ASU students would raise a stink. I’m saying that I’m already living this and there are limits to the effectiveness of protests.

You're conflating protests against nike with scandals.

This isn't "students rising up"

It's some sort of institutional issue getting blown way out of proportion//getting getting negative media attention, pushing ASU to act.

Nike doesn't make the list.

And again you're trying to turn this into "same as it ever was"

Your not appreciating how things go down. It's a rabbit hole of expectations etc that the universities get bound to, via stupid decisions. I.e. campus president signing over authority to campus diversity officer etc.

As with everything else institutional power/influence is far more powerful than direct coercion.

Stuff only hits the fan when something goes wrong, so they are hard to predict.

 

[TheLegend]

Summary:

The property lines up with the airport’s two busiest runways and sits 10,000 feet east, or less than 2 miles, of the runway approach; Sky Harbor officials raised concerns about its proximity to runways, air traffic noise, etc.; and potential $264 million economic hit during the project's construction.

For reference…. This is in regards to the cranes during construction

An airport official in the most recent meeting with Meruelo’s group admitted (story is posted elsewhere above) he was using worst case numbers and the more likely number is closer to $2.1 million annually for roughly $10 million total. If at all. Those numbers were based on the original TED plans. Meruelo has lowered the housing unit towers by twenty feet (per the last meeting). Only one crane would need an FAA designation and it will be used a total of 21 days.

Meruelo’s FAA consultant pointed out to the board that none of the cranes Meruelo would deploy are nearly as tall as the one used to build Carvana’s building directly across the street nor the even taller ones the airport itself used to build its SkyTrain system on the airport grounds.

Coyotes did not accurately address the "most important obstacle" raised by officials — the incompatible land use of residential units so close to the airport.

“Most important” meaning they don’t want to field more noise complaints than they do now.

Tempe currently has a 395 unit housing project under consideration that will be even closer to Sky Harbor than TED and aligns with the south runways.

Yet not a peep from the PAAB about it.

 

[Ciao]

Just used the ignore feature for the first time in a very long time here.

This thread reads much more easily now, after it had been hijacked by a new poster the past few weeks and months by someone with far too much time on their hands.

Now I can see what those whose opinions I value actually think without long, parsed-out, pedantic quarrels over every single point -- by point, by point, by point

 

[fryfunk]

Just used the ignore feature for the first time in a very long time here.

This thread reads much more easily now, after it had been hijacked by a new poster the past few weeks and months by someone with far too much time on their hands.

Now I can see what those whose opinions I value actually think without long, parsed-out, pedantic quarrels over every single point -- by point, by point, by point

Here's my offer, if they stay after BOG, I'll end my account?

 

[1CasualFan]

CF can give you a far better explanation than I ever could.

But in this layman's POV.... if you are referring to the mandatory clause Arizona requires for all city/county lease contracts (that prompted the original 15 year lease with IA to be terminated by Glendale) there are similarities.

That sounds correct to me. It's not dissimilar to an athlete endorsement or any other venture where the reputation of one of the parties is a significant part of the bargained for consideration in the contract. I really was being facetious about LeBlanc and Moyes; its the type of clause ASU would put in any contract from the Coyotes to a company that was sponsoring scientific research. The reference to "good behavior" seemed completely overblown to me - it's a standard "dont be a jackass and hurt our brand" clause.

 

[1CasualFan]

Tempe currently has a 395 unit housing project under consideration that will be even closer to Sky Harbor than TED and aligns with the south runways.

Yet not a peep from the PAAB about it.

Perhaps the developer on that project made sure the squeaky wheel got some oil early in that process...

With all due respect to aviation safety, it's just impossible for me to take the PAAB gripes seriously. I feel like I got the gist of their program after reviewing the presentations and some of the more, shall we way "creative", math in them.

 

[1CasualFan]

Just used the ignore feature for the first time in a very long time here.

This thread reads much more easily now, after it had been hijacked by a new poster the past few weeks and months by someone with far too much time on their hands.

Now I can see what those whose opinions I value actually think without long, parsed-out, pedantic quarrels over every single point -- by point, by point, by point

I can appreciate muting Team Butthead - but I do have to stick up for BOH members who respond with long, parsed-out, pedantic quarrels over every single point. Pretty much built my rep on that; so I'm obligated to defend here...

 

[PainForShane]

I can appreciate muting Team Butthead - but I do have to stick up for BOH members who respond with long, parsed-out, pedantic quarrels over every single point. Pretty much built my rep on that; so I'm obligated to defend here...

Agree but (as a Yotes fan), it's a slippery slope and something I'm struggling with as a relatively new guy to the main boards (decent reputation within the AZ forums I would think but who really knows). Anyway Team Butthead will keep clowning on us with nonsense and inaccurate facts, somehow they think it's ok to repeatedly go after this fanbase with their garbage and continue even harder when we stick up for the team we cheer for.

Don't get me wrong I'm kind of with you... but I'm also kind of like...

I dunno. Maybe I'll help defend once in a while, not sure depending on available time / responsibilities. Either way thanks for carrying the torch and giving @TheLegend some much needed backup when you can

 

[mouser]

Perhaps the developer on that project made sure the squeaky wheel got some oil early in that process...

With all due respect to aviation safety, it's just impossible for me to take the PAAB gripes seriously. I feel like I got the gist of their program after reviewing the presentations and some of the more, shall we way "creative", math in them.

Yeah, the PAAB objection has reeked of politics from the get go, rather then a genuine concern for air safety. Even the airport noise abatement complaint issue is weak, as the Airport has had an agreement with Tempe and Phoenix on how to handle those for decades. Not the first time there’s been a squabble.

I genuinely wonder how common this behavior is in other parts of the country or world? One municipal district with an airport wielding the power of the airport authority to suppress development in neighboring districts for their own economic benefit.

 

[1CasualFan]

I genuinely wonder how common this behavior is in other parts of the country or world? One municipal district with an airport wielding the power of the airport authority to suppress development in neighboring districts for their own economic benefit.

At the risk of being cynical, I think it's fairly common. P3 is a dirty world.

Sometimes it's the PAAB / FAA asserting a height restriction on a hockey arena; other times, the CA Coastal Commission claims agency for any development within 100 miles of the ocean. As soon as a project proposes a commingling of public and private funds - interests tend to get conflicted.

My analogy might be silly - but I think of it like the original Ghostbusters.

Choose your form.
When you get in bed with a governmental agency on a billion-dollar deal, you're pretty much conjuring up Gozar the Traveler. I would hope for the Stay Puff Marshmallow Man instead of Ed Beasley

 

[fryfunk]

I can appreciate muting Team Butthead - but I do have to stick up for BOH members who respond with long, parsed-out, pedantic quarrels over every single point. Pretty much built my rep on that; so I'm obligated to defend here...

Thanks for that, you can hate my posts go ahead, but don't trash me on the comments where I'm actually trying to play by the rules with a reasoned argument.

You wanna block me for hot takes on other subs etc go ahead.

But not a fan of being called unreasonably biased for talking about the actual thread title.

As I said this could work, I'm not saying it is a given, and I'm willing to put my account on the line.

 

[aqib]

Summary:



Developments under flight paths need FAA approval, in addition to local sign offs, and nothing has been approved because there has been only 'talks' between the Coyotes and the airport.

So then the airport could veto the development assuming the FAA goes along with what the airport wants?

 

[TheLegend]

So then the airport could veto the development assuming the FAA goes along with what the airport wants?

No.... airport can't do anything but convince the FAA to make a designation that favors them.

FAA can only determine if the cranes pose a safety hazard and the Coyotes appear to have that angle covered.

The "noise" argument is covered by an inter-governmental agreement made between Tempe and Phoenix in 1994 and is in force until 2044 when they will have to negotiate a new one.

 

[JimAnchower]

As an aside, Amazon's new HQ2 in Virginia was originally deemed to be too tall by the FAA due to it's proximity to Reagan Airport. That determination was later changed, with no change to the height of the structure.

FAA signs off on Amazon's 'Helix' height at HQ2, says it's not too tall for nearby airport

The Federal Aviation Administration has signed off on the height of Amazon's proposed 'Helix' building at HQ2, saying the structure is not too tall for nearby Reagan National Airport. The FAA issued a 'Determination of No Hazard to Air Navigation' after the agency spent several months conducting...

wjla.com

 

[Dirty Old Man]

As an aside, Amazon's new HQ2 in Virginia was originally deemed to be too tall by the FAA due to it's proximity to Reagan Airport. That determination was later changed, with no change to the height of the structure.

FAA signs off on Amazon's 'Helix' height at HQ2, says it's not too tall for nearby airport

The Federal Aviation Administration has signed off on the height of Amazon's proposed 'Helix' building at HQ2, saying the structure is not too tall for nearby Reagan National Airport. The FAA issued a 'Determination of No Hazard to Air Navigation' after the agency spent several months conducting...

wjla.com

Good find - I didn't realize that was going there...been to Crystal City a few times...and while researching that, one of our old "friends" popped up, whining about one of the bids, as is his wont:

Amazon HQ2 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Jim Balsillie remarked that he was disappointed in W. Edmund Clark, Kathleen Wynne's czar in charge of the Toronto bid, when in 2017 the latter attempted to sell the buyer on "our competitive advantage... software programmers that cost 34% to 38% less than in the US... that's an edge the government is determined not only to maintain but to sharpen." Balsillie found this strategy to be "misguided... these strategies put our tech workers in a global race to the bottom, competing on cost with the salaries in Poland, Ukraine, and India."

 

[TheLegend]

Agendas posted for June 2nd meetings of the Tempe City Council:

Executive Session:

View Meeting - OnBase Agenda Online

tempe.hylandcloud.com

Special Meeting:
Agenda:

View Meeting - OnBase Agenda Online

tempe.hylandcloud.com

Agenda Packet:

https://tempe.hylandcloud.com/AgendaOnline/Documents/ViewDocument/City_Council_Special_Meeting_1387_Agenda_Packet_6_2_2022_2_00_00_PM.pdf?meetingId=1387&documentType=AgendaPacket&itemId=0&publishId=0&isSection=false

 

[Llama19]

 

[TheLegend]

View attachment 552913

Was just about to post that.

That one low score does have me concerned.

Will have to dig some more but I believe Tempe has a FAQ on how they score those categories.

Edit: It’s in the original application RFP document.

Financial Strength (20%)
Demonstrated financial ability. Detail the amount of liquid assets currently available to the Developer and the amount of capital the Developer is willing to invest in the purchase and development of the City-owned land. The respondent should demonstrate its ability to develop all of the City-owned land and the financial capacity to complete a large development project upon approval of a Development and Disposition Agreement and commence within 24 months. Please submit financial statements and project pro forma including details on sources and uses of funds under a separate cover.

Bluebird Development is a new company formed with a single purpose. Therefore they would not possess much of a financial history and that could have affected the score. But that’s only my speculation.

 

[TheLegend]

Hmmmm…. Me thinks the gloves are coming off…. City of Phoenix just entered the chat.
@1CasualFan this one is in your realm.

https://www.skyharbor.com/docs/default-source/pdfs/rio-salado-project/2022-05-26-letter-to-city-of-tempe.pdf

 

[Major4Boarding]

1994 IGA | City of Tempe, AZ

https://www.tempe.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/1337/636767634023000000

 

[stealth1]

I feel for the fans of Arizona and hope it works as you guys have gone through a lot. From an outsider this season will tell a lot about the fan base. With such a small arena I see no reason it can't be sold out every game.

 

[mouser]

Was just about to post that.

That one low score does have me concerned.

Will have to dig some more but I believe Tempe has a FAQ on how they score those categories.

Edit: It’s in the original application RFP document.



Bluebird Development is a new company formed with a single purpose. Therefore they would not possess much of a financial history and that could have affected the score. But that’s only my speculation.

Without knowing if Bluebird is entirely Meruelo or if any other investors are involved it’s difficult to evaluate that grade from the outside.

For example, if Tempe decides they like everything about the design proposal but are worried about the financial backing that may be something Meruelo can strengthen during a negotiation period by bringing on other partners.