CXLIII - UPDATED 6/3 - Coyotes arena deal takes next step after Tempe council votes to open negotiations

[Hunter Gathers]

Hard to imagine that they could create language to cover every scenario.

The big challenge is that ASU would have to prove some sort of loss.

But, it could be grounds to cancel the agreement, even if it doesn't end up holding up in court. Would the Coyotes be able to get an injunction to avoid being booted in the meantime? Open question.

"Hard to imagine that they could create language to cover every scenario."

They don't need to. They just need to cover a number of actual situations instead of making it an essentially open-ended contract provision.

re: 2nd paragraph - ASU wouldn't have to prove any type of loss in a morals clause. Just that the violation happened. They'd have to prove that the violation happened but not some type of loss due to it since the point of a morals clause is to ensure good behavior.

re: 3rd paragraph - How could it cancel an agreement AND not hold up in court? If it can't hold up in court, it can't cancel the agreement, since the agreement wouldn't be void and the Coyotes would surely sue.

 

[Fatass]

"Hard to imagine that they could create language to cover every scenario."

They don't need to. They just need to cover a number of actual situations instead of making it an essentially open-ended contract provision.

re: 2nd paragraph - ASU wouldn't have to prove any type of loss in a morals clause. Just that the violation happened. They'd have to prove that the violation happened but not some type of loss due to it since the point of a morals clause is to ensure good behavior.

re: 3rd paragraph - How could it cancel an agreement AND not hold up in court? If it can't hold up in court, it can't cancel the agreement, since the agreement wouldn't be void and the Coyotes would surely sue.

Could Bettman have met with the Quebec people as a contingency in case the University does invoke this clause and the Coyotes have to find a place to play mid season? I would think There is no way the university could do that anyway. The Coyotes could sue for 100’s of millions.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Could Bettman have met with the Quebec people as a contingency in case the University does invoke this clause and the Coyotes have to find a place to play mid season? I would think There is no way the university could do that anyway. The Coyotes could sue for 100’s of millions.

The litigation would just not allow ASU to lock the Coyotes out, so I highly doubt it. Litigation of this matter would take a while - likely a few years.

 

[Fatass]

Bettman isn’t doing his job if he doesn’t have contingencies in place, no matter how unlikely they will be needed. Until the Coyotes’ get a “shovel in the ground” starting their new rink, we will hear about the team moving. Didn’t Bettman say something about getting a shovel in the ground being needed?

 

[TheLegend]

Bettman isn’t doing his job if he doesn’t have contingencies in place, no matter how unlikely they will be needed. Until the Coyotes’ get a “shovel in the ground” starting their new rink, we will hear about the team moving. Didn’t Bettman say something about getting a shovel in the ground being needed?

Yep….

Need to just ignore the drive by posters with their “move the team already” garbage.

Likewise I’m seeing some starting to complain about Tempe dragging its feet. But it’s not on them. Meruelo has to have a finalized project to present calculated to the dime and it’s apparent he just made some major changes by removing a couple of floors from the housing towers to appease the aviation board. That all requires reworking the numbers.

 

[gstommylee]

Yep….

Need to just ignore the drive by posters with their “move the team already” garbage.

Likewise I’m seeing some starting to complain about Tempe dragging its feet. But it’s not on them. Meruelo has to have a finalized project to present calculated to the dime and it’s apparent he just made some major changes by removing a couple of floors from the housing towers to appease the aviation board. That all requires reworking the numbers.

People also don't understand when it comes to big projects that require government approval takes time and its something that can not be rushed.

Bettman isn’t doing his job if he doesn’t have contingencies in place, no matter how unlikely they will be needed. Until the Coyotes’ get a “shovel in the ground” starting their new rink, we will hear about the team moving. Didn’t Bettman say something about getting a shovel in the ground being needed?

And its also his job to talk to potential cities even there is ZERO chance that if yotes move they'll end up in quebec... People need to seaparate oh quebec are gonna get a team like its certain from the league commissioner just doing his job.

 

[TheLegend]

No agenda(s) available yet but it appears it hits the council again on June 2.

 

[JimAnchower]

No agenda(s) available yet but it appears it hits the council again on June 2.

So less than two weeks?!

 

[fryfunk]

RE: "Good Behavior" clause.

I thought this topic was a joke - I even made a flip Jerry Moyes comment about it.

Arizona State University is a state funded institution of higher learning. All of their procurement is regulated in some way or another. I have not read them all, but I hope the Coyotes had to make a diversity hire or two to get their lease at ASU...

View attachment 550186

This isn't an excuse for being in a tough situation, this is the reason you don't go into a tough situation in the first place.

This is like saying it isn't my fault I can't afford my Cadillac Escalade payments I only make 40 k a year.

 

[fryfunk]

One of the strange things with the clause is how vague it is. I find clauses like this are very, very challenging to enforce.

A contract that is so one-sided that it just allows the other party to determine what vague, undefined issue that breaks the morals clause (or whatever they term it in the contract) has some serious issues in court.

The other odd thing is that while morals clauses are definitely a common ask, normally the parties aren't so disparate in their bargaining power as-to keep it in the deal. I guess ASU had the Coyotes really by the balls, here.

But, man. I hate that language. It's awful and pretty boilerplate. Should be more specific for a higher chance of actual enforcement.

The problem with the morality clause is that they haven't given us any information regarding how it is applied to this situation.

If they gave specific details of what is included it wouldn't be such an issue.

It's like the Don Cherry situation they couldn't afford his contract, so they went after him for saying the kind of crap he's always saying.



It's an easy way out, provided the person at the other end crosses the imaginary line.

In any other situation that'd be fine, but when a team requires 3 years of stability to exist it's a massive problem.

Especially when the big money(renovating the area), has already been payed for.

AM is hoping the people wanting the arena cash, aren't gonna have to other forces.

My biggest concern isn't a direct scadal with the yotes, but a bigger scandal with NCAA, that leads the Yotes being used as a scape goat. NCAA is untouchable.

Corporate sports on a college campus just seems like craziness.

Different departments at a university have competing needs, the Yotes are such an easy target. Very different from when an NFL team plays at a NCAA arena. Has football has a stronger footing in the NCAA pecking order. Not that the NFL would work either.

 

[AZDesertKnight]

Could Bettman have met with the Quebec people as a contingency in case the University does invoke this clause and the Coyotes have to find a place to play mid season? I would think There is no way the university could do that anyway. The Coyotes could sue for 100’s of millions.

Jesus, the "clause" is a non factor in any of this.

 

[fryfunk]

Yep….

Need to just ignore the drive by posters with their “move the team already” garbage.

Likewise I’m seeing some starting to complain about Tempe dragging its feet. But it’s not on them. Meruelo has to have a finalized project to present calculated to the dime and it’s apparent he just made some major changes by removing a couple of floors from the housing towers to appease the aviation board. That all requires reworking the numbers.

You're making excuses for a boneheaded situation.

It's part of what makes this thing so frustrating to an outsider.

Do you think the failure of Melnyk to get an arena downtown Ottawa, is some complaint made by people wanting to move the team to QC?

No, it's something the actual fans are viciously upset over.

Melnyk screwed up and put a serious cap on sens gate revenue.

Instead of blaming outsiders for being critical of the situation they all admit and hated melnyk for not having a contingency plan worked out.

AM, failed at his job, if he wants the team he's responsible for making sure they have a reliable contingency plan.

Instead he's done the equivalent of borrowing his bosses car for 3 years, because he couldn't take care of his own car payments.

This ASU deal might work out, it doesn't mean it isn't a fragile situation that should have been avoided.

Ultimately it's an embarrassment for the league(just as Melnyk continues to be one from beyond the grave). It could ultimately do serious damage to team values. I can assure you owners are very very very upset over all of this.

Just because AM might pull this off, doesn't mean he isn't doing so without total disrespect to the other owners. He bought the team knowing the expectations, and he made a mess of it.

Modern team values are based on have suitable NHL arenas. He's destroying that institution with this mess.

Both fans and none fans should have the integrity to be deeply critical of the situation.

This could work, but just because it might work, doesn't mean it wasn't way off base.

 

[TheLegend]

You're making excuses for a boneheaded situation.

It's part of what makes this thing so frustrating to an outsider.

Do you think the failure of Melnyk to get an arena downtown Ottawa, is some complaint made by people wanting to move the team to QC?

No, it's something the actual fans are viciously upset over.

Melnyk screwed up and put a serious cap on sens gate revenue.

Instead of blaming outsiders for being critical of the situation they all admit and hated melnyk for not having a contingency plan worked out.

AM, failed at his job, if he wants the team he's responsible for making sure they have a reliable contingency plan.

Instead he's done the equivalent of borrowing his bosses car for 3 years, because he couldn't take care of his own car payments.

This ASU deal might work out, it doesn't mean it isn't a fragile situation that should have been avoided.

Ultimately it's an embarrassment for the league(just as Melnyk continues to be one from beyond the grave). It could ultimately do serious damage to team values. I can assure you owners are very very very upset over all of this.

Just because AM might pull this off, doesn't mean he isn't doing so without total disrespect to the other owners. He bought the team knowing the expectations, and he made a mess of it.

Modern team values are based on have suitable NHL values. He's destroying that institution with this mess.

Both fans and none fans should have the integrity to be deeply critical of the situation.

This could work, but just because it might work, doesn't mean it wasn't way off base.

Not making any excuses.

I’m fully aware that anything can happen to blow the entire proposal up and send the team somewhere else. But I’m not going to waste my time (and everyone else’s) repeatedly acting like a Chicken Little dreaming up every single thing that MIGHT go wrong either.

 

[fryfunk]

Not making any excuses.

I’m fully aware that anything can happen to blow the entire proposal up and send the team somewhere else. But I’m not going to waste my time (and everyone else’s) repeatedly acting like a Chicken Little dreaming up every single thing that MIGHT go wrong either.

Chicken little is an aesops tale.

Risk assessments are a ubiquitous feature of modern business.

This is a high risk unorthodox situation.

Literally one of the most extreme in modern sports.

 

[Ciao]

Because in the US and A we like to stack layers of bureaucratic regulation in order to extract more kickbacks. That's why the airport board can potentially block the city approval and make a big FAA stink out of any proposal in the Tempe/Rio Salado approach to PHX.

If you go back in time, I think you will find that the Sky Harbor board is spectacularly corrupt. I believe that might find indictments on everything for infringing on surrounding projects to manipulating retail leases in T4.

Regardless all that, I feel like the BOH Team looked at the PAAB claims about the arena back in April - and rightly determined their objections were basically stupid and fictional.

Not sure that we've seen anything since to change our consensus opinion?

Indictments for corruption against airport board members concerning airport-related business?

That's quite a bombshell for those of us from far away who really don't know anything about Arizona, CF.

Any names we could Google to fill ourselves in?

 

[Chet Manley]

You're making excuses for a boneheaded situation.

It's part of what makes this thing so frustrating to an outsider.

Do you think the failure of Melnyk to get an arena downtown Ottawa, is some complaint made by people wanting to move the team to QC?

No, it's something the actual fans are viciously upset over.

Melnyk screwed up and put a serious cap on sens gate revenue.

Instead of blaming outsiders for being critical of the situation they all admit and hated melnyk for not having a contingency plan worked out.

AM, failed at his job, if he wants the team he's responsible for making sure they have a reliable contingency plan.

Instead he's done the equivalent of borrowing his bosses car for 3 years, because he couldn't take care of his own car payments.

This ASU deal might work out, it doesn't mean it isn't a fragile situation that should have been avoided.

Ultimately it's an embarrassment for the league(just as Melnyk continues to be one from beyond the grave). It could ultimately do serious damage to team values. I can assure you owners are very very very upset over all of this.

Just because AM might pull this off, doesn't mean he isn't doing so without total disrespect to the other owners. He bought the team knowing the expectations, and he made a mess of it.

Modern team values are based on have suitable NHL arenas. He's destroying that institution with this mess.

Both fans and none fans should have the integrity to be deeply critical of the situation.

This could work, but just because it might work, doesn't mean it wasn't way off base.

It seems a little different in that Ottawa just talking about and planning a new rink isn't a hostile act towards a third-party that they have been soaking for ~10 years. Not a lot of plan b when the only plan a involves burning bridges.

 

[TheLegend]

Chicken little is an aesops tale.

Risk assessments are a ubiquitous feature of modern business.

This is a high risk unorthodox situation.

Literally one of the most extreme in modern sports.

The Chicken Little comment was a metaphor.

This is a calculated risk based upon the parameters of the situation.

 

[fryfunk]

The Chicken Little comment was a metaphor.

This is a calculated risk based upon the parameters of the situation.

It's a calculated risk, I can calculate to dump my life savings into a lotto ticket.

That doesn't mean it's an acceptable risk.

AM has nothing to lose, the league will feel very different.

The league isn't interested in his schemes. It's far more similar to the Jim Basille inccident than anything else.

 

[CorbeauNoir]

After glancing at the ticket prices this whole thing gives me huge Disney-Galactic-Starcruiser-hotel vibes. Just without the benefit of a massive universally-recognizable IP behind it.

 

[TheLegend]

It's a calculated risk, I can calculate to dump my life savings into a lotto ticket.

That doesn't mean it's an acceptable risk.

AM has nothing to lose, the league will feel very different.

The league isn't interested in his schemes. It's far more similar to the Jim Basille inccident than anything else.

You mean acceptable risk TO YOU.

But now we're comparing this to Jim Balsillie??

Alex Meruelo brought the Coyotes just so he could burn through millions of his OWN money over the next 3 years on a scheme that will culminate the Coyotes moving to Hamilton where he's always wanted to go.

I actually know of one poster on HFBoards who would completely buy that hook line and sinker.

 

[fryfunk]

You mean acceptable risk TO YOU.

But now we're comparing this to Jim Balsillie??

Alex Meruelo brought the Coyotes just so he could burn through millions of his OWN money over the next 3 years on a scheme that will culminate the Coyotes moving to Hamilton where he's always wanted to go.

I actually know of one poster on HFBoards who would completely buy that hook line and sinker.

You're desperately trying to derail what I said.

My point was specific, AM has gone too far off the rails, he's put the entire league in a bind.

Regardless of what plans may have been made when he bought the team, it's easy to believe the owners are beyond irritated with this situation. He's threatening the value of every NHL team, by not having an arena ready.

 

[fryfunk]

After glancing at the ticket prices this whole thing gives me huge Disney-Galactic-Starcruiser-hotel vibes. Just without the benefit of a massive universally-recognizable IP behind it.

Now that's a linguistic kill shot if there ever was one.

 

[MNNumbers]

You're desperately trying to derail what I said.

My point was specific, AM has gone too far off the rails, he's put the entire league in a bind.

Regardless of what plans may have been made when he bought the team, it's easy to believe the owners are beyond irritated with this situation. He's threatening the value of every NHL team, by not having an arena ready.

With all due respect, I think you are making much too big of a deal about this. Basically, what has happened is that AM has contracted a temporary facility for 3-4 years, while a new facility is built. Bettman is on record as saying that this works "As long as a new facility is in the process." Presumably, that means that if Tempe says 'no'or drags their feet, or if Tempe wants further negotiations which seem as if they are going to take too long to complete, then the temp rental at ASU is cancelled, and there are other 'çonversations'.

I really don't think this is a source of huge irritation for the other owners. However, if Tempe fails, there will be a lot of pressure from them, I think. Especially depending on other options, and whether there is a smooth relocation possibility.

 

[fryfunk]

With all due respect, I think you are making much too big of a deal about this. Basically, what has happened is that AM has contracted a temporary facility for 3-4 years, while a new facility is built.

Their temporary arena is effectively not suitable for the NHL.

They get in via loophole, because no one every imagined he'd go into an arena that is so small. If it was a proper sized arena it'd likely be too expensive to do the necessary renos for the locker rooms/concessions/boxes.



This is the absurdity of the whole thing. This isn't at all what the owners had in mind when they started agreeing on arena standards.

The fact you are saying "3-4" year is just as bizarre.

This is only tolerated because they literally have no choice.

Bettman is on record as saying that this works "As long as a new facility is in the process."

Are you pretending he'd say otherwise, this is an embarrassment to the league. He's exploiting a loophole, it's quite simple.

hat means that if Tempe says 'no'or drags their feet, or if Tempe wants further negotiations which seem as if they are going to take too long to complete, then the temp rental at ASU is cancelled, and there are other 'çonversations'.

This is the default assumption to anyone that isn't hella biased.

Again if this was Ottawa or any other market, the fans would be out in the open that the whole thing is imploding.

I'm not saying there's zero chance it works, it's a long shot, and there will be consequences, this is a "never again" moment for the league, much like the Jim Basille situation.

I really don't think this is a source of huge irritation for the other owners. However, if Tempe fails, there will be a lot of pressure from them, I think. Especially depending on other options, and whether there is a smooth relocation possibility.

If the issue isn't resolved with full confidence by the board of governors meeting next month, it seems to 100% likely the team is moving.

Obviously they still have time to pull it off. But it's make or break time.

 

[MNNumbers]

........snip..........

If the issue isn't resolved with full confidence by the board of governors meeting next month, it seems to 100% likely the team is moving.

Obviously they still have time to pull it off. But it's make or break time.

Can I ask a question to be sure what you are saying here?

Are you saying that next month, when the BOG gets together, that Meruelo better be able to show the BOG that there is a signed contract for the new arena, and if he cannot do that by next month's BOG meeting, that the team is relocating?