CXLIII - UPDATED 6/3 - Coyotes arena deal takes next step after Tempe council votes to open negotiations

[fryfunk]

I said there’s more. That one was the most recent.

But I’m not going to perpetuate this silly tangent because your really stretching this beyond the point of reality.

That's the state of the world today, universities are predictably unpredictable.

Universities used to be exclusive institutions who were focused on raising academic standards as a means of collecting more income, they've now gone down the road of going for quantity over quality. This means the students get their way more than you want.

Most organization are going through the process of decoupling from universities, the yotes are the ones going the other way.

If ASU thought Meruelo’s nose hair was a detriment to their public look they could invoke a termination. Silly assertion but it’s no different than all of these examples you keep dreaming up.

BTW I dealt with my own share of campus unrests going back to the 70’s. Everything you’ve managed to pull out of your hat so far pales in comparison.

I've said this 6 or 7 times. I'm 35, things have radically changed since the late 2000s.

I've noticed the change in the last 5 years. Even since covid, the universities have gotten very desperate to bring students back to the classroom, as so many people have figured its far cheaper to learn from home than on campus.

Your invalidating yourself by suggesting there's anything less than a total paradigm shift.

15 years ago professors could get away with murder.

Nowadays professors are literally losing their jobs for papers they've written literally 15 years ago. My wife saw a professor lose their job, because a professor made an argument that the western diatonic scale was superior to tonal scales of other cultures because of how it's overtone series was able to resolve . It got him fired.

Millenials are now in their mid 30s. Middle class birth rates were much much more modest in generation x. They have far fewer children. This has created a massive financial interest in doing whatever the students want, provided it costs the university the least amount of money.

ASU gets the renovation and money up front.

Getting involved with universities was always gonna be touchy.

The yotes are attempting to move mountains to get into that arena.

You're downplaying how desperate of an act this truly is.

More than a few organizations are in the process of decoupling from universities, the yotes are going in the other way.

The point isn't that bad things are bound to happen, it's that they attached themselves to an institution that is so unpredictable.

You don't need a forest fire, to be motivated to purchase insurance for your arena. The same logic applies with ASU.

The point isn't that the deal is getting canceled to this, the point is that it is a non trivial issue. It's one of many red flags associated with the yotes being kicked out of glendale.

Once ASU gets its renovations, don't be shocked if their attitude towards the yotes takes a turn. I can assure you administrators would much prefer to go after an nhl team, than do something more radical like going after NCAA etc. Going after the NCAA could destroy the schools athletics program permanently, the yotes are out in 3 years either way.

Universities have taken the customer is always right approach to their business. They no longer attract students via high academic praise, but instead via presenting their universities as an idealized safe inclusive place to live. If a private business gives them negative attention don't be shocked they cave.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Nyah.... it's more hilarious watching fans from everywhere come up with all the doom and gloom scenarios that never materialize.

it's funny coz it's true

"Gaaaa...they're getting evicted! So they're moving and they've nowhere to play in Arizona!"
"Gaaaa...they didn't pay their rent! They're in financial trouble!"
"Gaaaa...Phoenix won't let the competition happen!"
"Gaaaa...it's a flight hazard!"
"Gaaaa...the university doesn't really care! Watch them stab them in the back!"

you people.

 

[Stumbledore]

BTW I dealt with my own share of campus unrests going back to the 70’s. Everything you’ve managed to pull out of your hat so far pales in comparison.

Hey, statute of limitations.

What we did in the 60s and 70s stays in the 60s and 70s.

 

[TheLegend]

"Gaaaa...they're getting evicted! So they're moving and they've nowhere to play in Arizona!"
"Gaaaa...they didn't pay their rent! They're in financial trouble!"
"Gaaaa...Phoenix won't let the competition happen!"
"Gaaaa...it's a flight hazard!"
"Gaaaa...the university doesn't really care! Watch them stab them in the back!"

you people.

Definitely a Don Quixotic effort going on here.

That said…. CF nailed it above when he said it will get down to the GPLET portion of the proposal to Tempe.

 

[DoyleG]

No. I'm talking about you talking hit pieces against the Coyotes coming out like clockwork (that time, the subject was was TDL and FA) and coming up with one unrelated article from 2015. You then proceeded to get challenged on it by multiple posters and went MIA.

We can do this again.

Can you provide these clockwork 'hit-pieces' from year to year regarding the status of Arizona's arena?

Swear to God, that franchise would be a lot easier to support if some people weren't twisting themselves into pretzels to Baghdad Bob the entire thing. There is no conspiracy to f*** with the Coyotes.

Its easier to blame others and get into conspiracies' than to take a good look at one's self.

 

[fryfunk]

"Gaaaa...they're getting evicted! So they're moving and they've nowhere to play in Arizona

Still a massive problem.

"
"Gaaaa...they didn't pay their rent! They're in financial trouble!"

Still a massive problem.

"Gaaaa...Phoenix won't let the competition happen!"

Still a problem

"Gaaaa...it's a flight hazard!"

A symptom of the problem.

"Gaaaa...the university doesn't really care! Watch them stab them in the back!"

you people.

Yes when you make a desperate action it's a real concern. The Yotes are pushing the limits of what can be considered league appropriate. Maybe it's less obvious if Hockey arenas are rarer in Arizona. This literally feels like the NFL playing at a highschool football field.


The logic is just absurd.

The vast majority think this is an extraordinary situation.

The popular argument in this thread "they don't live here they can't know"

Then they do research, and the fact they've done research is used as the reason why they are inherently biased.

 

[TheLegend]

Still a massive problem.



Still a massive problem.

Still a problem

A symptom of the problem.




Yes when you make a desperate action it's a real concern. The Yotes are pushing the limits of what can be considered league appropriate. Maybe it's less obvious if Hockey arenas are rarer in Arizona. This literally feels like the NFL playing at a highschool football field.


The logic is just absurd.

The vast majority think this is an extraordinary situation.

The popular argument in this thread "they don't live here they can't know"

Then they do research, and the fact they've done research is used as the reason why they are inherently biased.

Misguided logic.

I could come up with a hundred more things how it could all go wrong.

In the end it’s called “calculated risk”.

And Meruelo is taking a calculated risk here.

He has millions already invested in this and there’s far more a chance his proposal gets turned down by Tempe than any doomsday scenario you’ve come up with to date.

 

[Stumbledore]

Misguided logic.

I could come up with a hundred more things how it could all go wrong.

In the end it’s called “calculated risk”.

And Meruelo is taking a calculated risk here.

He has millions already invested in this and there’s far more a chance his proposal gets turned down by Tempe than any doomsday scenario you’ve come up with to date.

Some people might think not paying your taxes is a calculated risk.

I think it's just stupid.

 

[TheLegend]

Some people might think not paying your taxes is a calculated risk.

I think it's just stupid.

No, that was definitely stupid.

I’m not sure of the level of seriousness that assertion was. There were a lot of tax bills deferred during the pandemic.

I don’t know if any applied to the Coyotes but eventually the deadlines for deferments ended and they should have taken care of it at that point and didn’t. “Human error” not withstanding.

 

[fryfunk]

Misguided logic.

I could come up with a hundred more things how it could all go wrong.

In the end it’s called “calculated risk”.

And Meruelo is taking a calculated risk here.

no one is gonna debate he's taking an endless number of "calculated" risks.

That has never ever ever been debated.

I think dropping 20 million on a temp arena without approval for the non temporary proves the guy treats his own money as if it were the houses.

The problem with this specific risk, is that it's something owners might question.

You might think scandal is some once in a century issue, but for the league owners it's an a continual concern.

Hell look at that Melnyk moment. This is the problem with claiming the out of towners are biased. The owners don't live in Phoenix. There motivation to be skeptical isn't any different than our own.

He has millions already invested in this and there’s far more a chance his proposal gets turned down by Tempe than any doomsday scenario you’ve come up with to date.

Don't disagree at all.

They don't only have to get approval, they also have to clearly establish that the arena will be built on time.

It's not expecting the world, but it is certaintly a hail mary pass.

 

[KevFu]

My understanding is they said they would work with them after Tempe gives the initial approval.

That board doesn't need to sign off on this plan or is this incorrect?

Not reading along as closely with every item like Legend, I'd have to assume the common sense philosophy of "It's going to be a lot easier to GET approval if you've been working with the airport from the beginning and present a plan THEY have already signed off on, rather than try and get approval and have the airport issue being bickered over in the press.

From the airports web page (www.skyharbor.com/tempeentertainmentdistrict):

On May 18, 2022, the Aviation Department received a copy of a letter sent by the Air Line Pilots Association to Tempe Mayor Corey Woods, expressing their continued concern with the Tempe Entertainment District development. It references a letter from Oct. 20, 2021 also linked on this page.

I didn't think of the cranes. Honestly, the idea that the Entertainment District being a "problem" when other construction in the area at a taller height was not a problem let me to think something like "Ever see those nightclubs with search lights out front? And strobe lights and laser shows? Yeah, THAT could be a problem when you're over the entertainment district trying to land an airplane safely."

 

[KevFu]

I've said this 6 or 7 times. I'm 35, things have radically changed since the late 2000s.

Your invalidating yourself by suggesting there's anything less than a total paradigm shift.

15 years ago professors could get away with murder.

Love this part because it's entirely true. I worked in college athletics for 20 years, and we had a seminar with the Dean of Student Life, because the Dean wanted to make sure we were aware of the seismic shift in kids and parents in the previous 10 years (this was 2017).

He asked us to guess how many calls they get from parents, because they get them CONSTANTLY complaining about professors grading their kids, or dorms and food not good enough, etc.

OUR parents told us "We'll pick you up at the end of the semester, and if you need to move out before then, you can find your own way home."

Somewhere In the last 15 years, parents' view on their kid getting bad grades in college went from "Kid's Fault" to "School's Fault."

 

[KevFu]

I think dropping 20 million on a temp arena without approval for the non temporary proves the guy treats his own money as if it were the houses.

The problem with this specific risk, is that it's something owners might question.

Don't disagree at all.

They don't only have to get approval, they also have to clearly establish that the arena will be built on time.

It's not expecting the world, but it is certaintly a hail mary pass.

I view that information from the opposite direction. Seems like you have an opinion on the matter, and that's leading you to view the news as insanity; instead of the news inform your opinion on what's really happening.

It reminds me of the New York Mets 2015 trade deadline, when Twitter reported that a Mets trade of Wilmer Flores was "Done, pending physicals." But Wilmer's out there playing shortstop, and everyone in the baseball media/fan base had a collective meltdown about "how stupid the Mets are for keeping a guy they traded in the game." I was on a Mets board, punching at a hurricane of stupid that "the fact that he's ON THE FIELD means he's NOT traded yet."

The fact that the Coyotes are dropping $20 million on a temporary home, not to mention the potential to lose revenue with only 5000 seats to sell (although, they're offsetting supply by raising price in accordance with demand, but who knows the dollar value of the end result), and the fact that this plan was signed off on, and we're not hearing about meetings with other cities that lack NHL teams, or potential buyers of the Coyotes to move...

... should say more about the likelihood a Tempe arena project gets built, than it does about the intelligence/sanity of the parties involved.

He's a guy who was smart enough to acquire enough wealth to buy an NHL team, so I'm going to let that dictate my opinion more than someone basing an assessment of his sanity on either personal preference of WANTING him to be crazy, or that it is really hot in Phoenix, when hockey has been successful in Tampa, Los Angeles, Anaheim and Vegas.

 

[gstommylee]

I followed my share of arena government approval process, there is absolutely 100% no way there was going to be time to get yotes own separate locker room/weight room (what ever it was required to be built) done in time for the next season if they waited until AFTER Tempe approved the arena plan.

So it stupid to think that yotes should wait till after tempe's plan is approved then go to ASU and say hey we want to use your rink here's the money to build what we need then have to start on the road for god knows how many months. Thats a disaster waiting to happen.

Look at the season NYI had when they played the first 13 games on the road... It didn't look good.

 

[Ernie]

If anything Meruelo is a case study on how to be rich and stupid at the same time.

Dude got wealthy with his shady behaviour, but that doesn't work so well with a public facing company. 9 times out of 10 wealthy people aren't anything special; they just have no shame.

 

[TheLegend]

Not reading along as closely with every item like Legend, I'd have to assume the common sense philosophy of "It's going to be a lot easier to GET approval if you've been working with the airport from the beginning and present a plan THEY have already signed off on, rather than try and get approval and have the airport issue being bickered over in the press.



I didn't think of the cranes. Honestly, the idea that the Entertainment District being a "problem" when other construction in the area at a taller height was not a problem let me to think something like "Ever see those nightclubs with search lights out front? And strobe lights and laser shows? Yeah, THAT could be a problem when you're over the entertainment district trying to land an airplane safely."

The airport had previously complained about the cranes causing them to lose money by delaying operations.

In the PhxBiz article, Meruelo's FAA consultant pointed out that the tallest crane they planned to use would not encroach any of the designated flight space and they only needed it for 21 days total, and it could be moved.

OTOH.... he also pointed to when Carvana had been constructing their building across the street from the TED site they used an even taller crane and the airport didn't bat an eye. Just as when they were using even taller cranes to construct their own Sky Train system around the airport.

Plus, Meruelo already acknowledged in their first presentation in October that they would not use lasers, high output lighting or employ the use drones anywhere on the project.

 

[fryfunk]

I followed my share of arena government approval process, there is absolutely 100% no way there was going to be time to get yotes own separate locker room/weight room (what ever it was required to be built) done in time for the next season if they waited until AFTER Tempe approved the arena plan.

So it stupid to think that yotes should wait till after tempe's plan is approved then go to ASU and say hey we want to use your rink here's the money to build what we need then have to start on the road for god knows how many months. Thats a disaster waiting to happen.

Look at the season NYI had when they played the first 13 games on the road... It didn't look good.

That's a slight of hand, I'm not saying they could, it's very much a symptom of the desperation.

If anything Meruelo is a case study on how to be rich and stupid at the same time.

Dude got wealthy with his shady behaviour, but that doesn't work so well with a public facing company. 9 times out of 10 wealthy people aren't anything special; they just have no shame.

A majority of the worlds self made billionaires got there by taking absurd risk.

For every billionaire, there's 100 to 200 multi millionaires who risked their fortunes and ended up broke.

That being said you don't get to the table if you aren't very competent.

 

[Ernie]

A majority of the worlds self made billionaires got there by taking absurd risk.

For every billionaire, there's 100 to 200 multi millionaires who risked their fortunes and ended up broke.

That being said you don't get to the table if you aren't very competent.

Would you say that the Coyotes have been run in a competent manner since Meruelo took over?

His modus operandi, as documented by Katie Strang, is to get an edge by screwing everyone over. The only competency he has is shamelessness.

 

[fryfunk]

Would you say that the Coyotes have been run in a competent manner since Meruelo took over?

His modus operandi, as documented by Katie Strang, is to get an edge by screwing everyone over. The only competency he has is shamelessness.

He walked into a dumpster fire, that's all I'm gonna say.

 

[Fatass]

Would you say that the Coyotes have been run in a competent manner since Meruelo took over?

His modus operandi, as documented by Katie Strang, is to get an edge by screwing everyone over. The only competency he has is shamelessness.

Couldthis history of “screwing everyone over” be partly why the University included that “behaviour” clause? I’m thinking it’s not so much about personal stuff, but more about business dealings. If Meruelo breaches that clause due to a business thing, could the school toss the team out without notice? I can’t imagine that could happen. Where would they play?

 

[TheLegend]

Couldthis history of “screwing everyone over” be partly why the University included that “behaviour” clause? I’m thinking it’s not so much about personal stuff, but more about business dealings. If Meruelo breaches that clause due to a business thing, could the school toss the team out without notice? I can’t imagine that could happen. Where would they play?

ASU was asked by more than one reporter and they said it’s a standard clause in their contracts of this type.

They have no reason to make that up.

 

[Fatass]

ASU was asked by more than one reporter and they said it’s a standard clause in their contracts of this type.

They have no reason to make that up.

Maybe I read the quotes wrong. I thought it was reported the University said it was standard to “ask” for a behaviour clause to be included? Although I imagine Meruelo had no negotiating leverage, so had to agree it was included.
I wonder what the protocols are for that clause to be activated, and what the consequences would be? That has to be defined in the contract, one would think.

 

[Ernie]

He walked into a dumpster fire, that's all I'm gonna say.

And added gasoline to the fire.

Coyotes fans will pretend otherwise but the team could have survived, and long term even thrived at GRA. A sweetheart deal like the Panthers have could have been been worked out with Glendale and nobody would be talking about the franchise leaving.

But no. He had to blow that up and now the team is playing in front of 5000 people and praying that they'll get approved for an arena that is facing a great deal of opposition. And it's not clear that the market can support the prices that a brand new arena would require.

 

[gstommylee]

And added gasoline to the fire.

Coyotes fans will pretend otherwise but the team could have survived, and long term even thrived at GRA. A sweetheart deal like the Panthers have could have been been worked out with Glendale and nobody would be talking about the franchise leaving.

But no. He had to blow that up and now the team is playing in front of 5000 people and praying that they'll get approved for an arena that is facing a great deal of opposition. And it's not clear that the market can support the prices that a brand new arena would require.

Could survive? Dude team WAS NOT making any money there. The NHL on two occasion said glendale will NOT work long term...

Stop reaching...

 

[TheLegend]

Could survive? Dude team WAS NOT making any money there. The NHL on two occasion said glendale will NOT work long term...

Stop reaching...

Some people are never going to accept that the business model in Glendale was destroyed the moment Steve Ellman and Jerry Moyes dissolved their partnership and the Coyotes were separated from the Westgate Entertainment District.

I was about 400 words into a 1500 word post last night laying it all out and decided to dump it because none of them would care about it.

Well….. I knew a handful who would but most haven’t posted in years and the 2-3 who do get it and still around are staying off right now until something of real consequence happens.