CXLIII - UPDATED 6/3 - Coyotes arena deal takes next step after Tempe council votes to open negotiations

[KevFu]

Fair argument and while I know I'm keeping us afield from Legend's great work a little longer, I will say that you have to be very careful to fall into a sunk cost fallacy when you say "you'll alienate fans in Phoenix." By that logic, no one ever moves ever and while I know moves should be *rare*, saying they should be non-existent is a tad absurd. One could easily argue that 25+ years of rotating clown shows has done more to alienate a good deal of Arizonians from hockey than a relocation ever could.

Generally most (not all but most) at least agree that the NHL screwed the pooch by moving the Jets to Phoenix when they did as they did. Going to Phoenix? Some might agree, some might not. As they did it? Pretty uniform agreement it was done terribly and they've been playing behind the eight-ball in the market ever since.

Living in Atlanta, I often genuinely wonder if hockey would be more popular here if the Flames had never been founded for Atlanta in the first place. You'd be surprised how often I conclude that "actually, it probably would be....."

Bringing it back to the subject at hand, I guess I was oblivious there's been a Wiki page for the proposed arena for many months now. So there's that, I guess :-D

I think we're moving a lot closer in our views than our our original posts to each other sounded. I understand the sunk cost fallacy, but, and I say this as an MFing Islanders fan since 1987 who knows how the lease/arena situation effects finances (and we're just NOW out the other side and an ACTUAL NHL franchise on equal footing as everyone else for the first time since they allowed ads on the boards in 1985/86....)


The Coyotes haven't had a freaking prayer to be successful in 25 years. You're right that 25 years of doing it wrong can totally make a fan base non-receptive. But the Coyotes have never had a single season of playing in an NHL Arena, ACCESSIBLE TO THE MARKET. Not sure how long you've been reading before replying, but I live here. I'd own Coyotes season tickets if my office was in Glendale, but it's in Gilbert so I live in Gilbert. My first year living here, I left the Gilbert office at 5 for the Islanders game, got to the arena with 6:23 left in the first period.

I have taken a day off from work when the Islanders are in town ever since. I can't get to the arena. I'm in the East Valley and the arena is on the western edge of the west valley. People who don't live here talk about "East Valley" and "West Valley" like it's "Left" or "Right" of downtown Phoenix. That's not what this market is.

The market is shaped like a bow-tie. There is an "outer loop" like most market have, designed in the 1930s during the New Deal; that puts Glendale on the outer loop (10 o'clock), and Tempe on the outer loop (3 o'clock). Tempe is the knot of the bow tie. The East Valley is DIVIDED BY MOUNTAINS and "2 million people live there now when it was no one in the 1930s did" situation.



I understand your point about "haven't Phoenix fans been alienated already," but when you break it down by access, the people within 25 minutes of Glendale are like 20% of the market. The people within 20 minutes of Tempe are 90% of the market.

And this is a transplant market. NFL rules sports fandom as way more popular than any other sport. But more people here are Suns fans that Cardinal fans because the Suns had a 22-year head start. You CAN build a hockey fan base here. You just have to do everything in your power to covert the masses. And the arena situation, and the ownership situation has done EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.



I'm gonna be insane right now. I'm gonna say the Coyotes get the Tempe Arena project approved, build the arena, and in 2032 have a higher franchise value than the Blues and Sabres. Those ARE hockey markets. But the Blues and Sabres are SMALL hockey markets. Phoenix is a market that is huge but hasn't embraced hockey. But if they're ever accessible and don't suck, the market will. Because hockey is awesome and every other sport sucks in comparison. So let's bump this in 2032 and see what is what.


We gotta search this in 10 years, so use #TaylorSwifIsASongwritingGod and find it.

 

[KevFu]

Generally most (not all but most) at least agree that the NHL screwed the pooch by moving the Jets to Phoenix

Sorry, I write like I talk and forgot about points.

ABSOLUTELY "the NHL" did "screw the pooch" by "moving the Jets to Phoenix." They had no arena plan, and no marketing plan to bring the market into NHL fandom.

But THE NHL DID NOT move the Jets to Phoenix. Winnipeg Jets owner Barry Shankarow sold the Jets to Steve Gluckstern, knowing Steve Gluckstern wanted moved the team to Phoenix, which the NHL BOG approved.

That's an important distinction.

 

[aqib]

So when you look at all five sports leagues, who'd be left?

The reason I sound like a jerk in these discussions is because there's no difference between the Coyotes and what's happening in Tampa with the Rays; there's no difference between what's happening with the Oakland As and what happened to the New York Islanders.

The difference is the Rays have solid TV ratings and which indicates there are people in Tampa who like baseball and are Rays fans but they just don't find their way to the Trop. The Islanders have a big TV contract. That's always been a thing that kept them going. That's also why every time they've gone up for sale since the Spano debacle they've gotten deep pocketed owners.

 

[aqib]

The Edmonton consortium that matched the offer was NOT an ownership group that fell within the parameters of NHL ownership rules. But Gary Bettman did not care. He had to stop the exodus.



But Bettman drew the line at Edmonton losing an NHL team, stepped into his job description and stopped being a passenger. Thank God he approved the Edmonton consortium. And ever since, there has been a blatant agenda of not jerking fan bases around: Minnesota got an expansion team; he said dozens of times that Winnipeg was his first choice for relocation and quickly ushered the Thrashers there. Quebec's bid was "deferred" and not "denied." (Which makes me thing PKP doesn't have the money).

Everyone is free to hate and boo Gary Bettman. (I like how Southern US markets boo him just because they think that makes them "part of the club." That's cute).

But my primary concern with the NHL from a "business of the league" standpoint is GETTING THE NORDIQUES BACK. A couple thousand 'Diques fans showed up to an Islanders game like 15 years ago; and my response was to buy a Nordiques t-shirt. Bringing back the Nordiques is the RIGHT THING TO DO, and everyone knows it.

The issue is HOW. And the better off the Coyotes are -- And Panthers, Hurricanes and Ducks are (Yeah, no one talks about the Ducks, but they'll be a big topic soon. That's the next team that "needs a new arena or they have to move"), then the better Quebec's chances are of getting back in.

The Oilers loan agreement required them to sell to a local group if one emerged. Also Bettman couldn't afford to have a third Canadian team leave in 3 years. Especially one that was so well supported and had a decent arena that was good for another 20 years.

The Ducks signed a 25 year extension a couple of years ago. The lease runs through 2048

 

[aqib]

Sorry, I write like I talk and forgot about points.

ABSOLUTELY "the NHL" did "screw the pooch" by "moving the Jets to Phoenix." They had no arena plan, and no marketing plan to bring the market into NHL fandom.

But THE NHL DID NOT move the Jets to Phoenix. Winnipeg Jets owner Barry Shankarow sold the Jets to Steve Gluckstern, knowing Steve Gluckstern wanted moved the team to Phoenix, which the NHL BOG approved.

That's an important distinction.

Burke/Gluckstern wanted to move them to Minnesota but they wanted either $8 million a year subsidy to play in the Target Center or like $40 million to renovate the St Paul Civic Center (St Paul offered $20 million) so then the NHL called Collangelo and made the deal for Phoenix, which as we know didn't have a good hockey venue.

 

[Legion34]

Nice to know so many people have been going out of their way dunking on an entire market and its fanbase for the past 14 years just to get at one guy.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It’s not to “get at one guy”

It’s a what 20 year history of constant bankruptcy. Shenanigans and lack of fan support that in a cap system. We in various ways. All pay for.

Original 6 fans have to pay 1500 bucks to take a family of 4 to the game. Fans of other teams have to support weaker franchises financially.

It’s silly. There is no excuse after how many years to not have a huge market and full
Buildings. Boston lived through sinden. The leafs lived through Ballard. There have been worse owners and worse decisions.

Toronto wouldn’t even put names on the back of jerseys.

There is no reason that rental and tourist services don’t even know who the coyotes are. The security in Auston Matthews building didn’t know who he was.

It’s not just one guy. It’s the idea that Arizona is somehow owed a team because a few support it. You could make the same argument across North America. Only 32 cities have teams.

 

[JimAnchower]

Original 6 fans have to pay 1500 bucks to take a family of 4 to the game. Fans of other teams have to support weaker franchises financially.

What fans of Original 6 teams have to pay to attend a game has absolutely nothing to do with a team in Arizona. Original 6 teams charge that much because there are enough people willing to pay that price to attend a game.

 

[Legion34]

What fans of Original 6 teams have to pay to attend a game has absolutely nothing to do with a team in Arizona. Original 6 teams charge that much because there are enough people willing to pay that price to attend a game.

Not quite. Have you noticed Everything costs so much more in the states now? There are enough people who are paying for items now…. But costs go up because overhead goes up.
Revenue sharing occurs throughout the league. Teams like Toronto/NYR have to pay for the salaries of arizona and others.

That causes the price to rise. Many fans/businesses now pay for seasons tickets. They have to renew because they will go down to 20 year lists.

The idea that Arizona fans think that they are somehow entitled to other fans supporting the team and “woe is me” when millions of other people are hockey fans who don’t get a team is silly.

Heck. There are teams in Ireland and Australia that get 000s to games.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

My brain cannot reconcile this. I think this is the definition of "shooting off your nose to spite your face."

I UNDERSTAND animosity towards Gary Bettman, who was an immature (green, not childish) commissioner learning his role in the early/mid 90s. The tipping point for him was Edmonton being sold to a Houston ownership group. Coaches (specifically Trotz) will talk about "being a passenger" after a loss. You can't be along for the ride and expect to have success. Bettman was a passenger while Minnesota, Quebec, Winnipeg and Hartford relocated. And when Edmonton was sold to Houston, he grew up and stopped being a passenger.

The Edmonton consortium that matched the offer was NOT an ownership group that fell within the parameters of NHL ownership rules. But Gary Bettman did not care. He had to stop the exodus.

(And Houston is a huge market the NHL is right to crave more than Seattle, Phoenix, or Miami! Houston would be outstanding for the NHL, because they have a massive market by size, but more importantly the Dallas-Houston rivalry transcends sports. They are the Edmonton-Calgary of the USA. It probably would be better than Islanders-Rangers, because hockey fans in New York are bitter rivals but only hate each other because both fan bases love hockey...

The people of Dallas and Houston would have embraced hockey to serve as their proxy for DALLAS VERSUS HOUSTON. That city rivalry is exponentially better than San Francisco vs Los Angeles. Most of their hated stems from their baseball teams showing up in 1958 and all their players hating the players on the other team; They were told to hate the other and followed. Pittsburgh and Philly hate each other, but they don't sell "Pennsylvania" Whoopers and pick-up trucks like they do in Texas. Texans are PRIDEFUL people. A Houston-Dallas NHL rivalry would be fantastic for the NHL.)

AND IT WAS PERFECT to move the Oilers to Houston. The NFL Houston Oilers had announced their move to Nashville! The NHL team could take their place with the same name!

But Bettman drew the line at Edmonton losing an NHL team, stepped into his job description and stopped being a passenger. Thank God he approved the Edmonton consortium. And ever since, there has been a blatant agenda of not jerking fan bases around: Minnesota got an expansion team; he said dozens of times that Winnipeg was his first choice for relocation and quickly ushered the Thrashers there. Quebec's bid was "deferred" and not "denied." (Which makes me thing PKP doesn't have the money).

Everyone is free to hate and boo Gary Bettman. (I like how Southern US markets boo him just because they think that makes them "part of the club." That's cute).

But my primary concern with the NHL from a "business of the league" standpoint is GETTING THE NORDIQUES BACK. A couple thousand 'Diques fans showed up to an Islanders game like 15 years ago; and my response was to buy a Nordiques t-shirt. Bringing back the Nordiques is the RIGHT THING TO DO, and everyone knows it.

The issue is HOW. And the better off the Coyotes are -- And Panthers, Hurricanes and Ducks are (Yeah, no one talks about the Ducks, but they'll be a big topic soon. That's the next team that "needs a new arena or they have to move"), then the better Quebec's chances are of getting back in.

IDK,
I read all that and came to the conclusion that the next expansion franchise should be in Houston, rather than Québec… We’ll done Sir!

 

[Coyotedroppings]

It’s not to “get at one guy”

It’s a what 20 year history of constant bankruptcy. Shenanigans and lack of fan support that in a cap system. We in various ways. All pay for.

Original 6 fans have to pay 1500 bucks to take a family of 4 to the game. Fans of other teams have to support weaker franchises financially.

It’s silly. There is no excuse after how many years to not have a huge market and full
Buildings. Boston lived through sinden. The leafs lived through Ballard. There have been worse owners and worse decisions.

Toronto wouldn’t even put names on the back of jerseys.

There is no reason that rental and tourist services don’t even know who the coyotes are. The security in Auston Matthews building didn’t know who he was.

It’s not just one guy. It’s the idea that Arizona is somehow owed a team because a few support it. You could make the same argument across North America. Only 32 cities have teams.

Hell, we’re “owed” a team merely because I support it. The rest can go to hell and if I’m the only one in the stands enjoying the game, hearing and seeing it, in all it’s glory…. So be it!

 

[Dirty Old Man]

It’s not just one guy. It’s the idea that Arizona is somehow owed a team because a few support it. You could make the same argument across North America. Only 32 cities have teams.

On the other hand, the constant whining after those decades that Arizona *does* still have a team is equally embarrassing. moreso even. It's a shame that lot don't have their own forum where they can go commiserate to their heart's content how upset they are that all the NHL teams aren't where they want them. But no, framing it as an aspect of "business" (although some of their business acumen is, ahem, suspect - to put it mildly), they hang out here, with the same arguments, over and over, year after year, mashing the like button along the way. Sad.

 

[stealth1]

I think we're moving a lot closer in our views than our our original posts to each other sounded. I understand the sunk cost fallacy, but, and I say this as an MFing Islanders fan since 1987 who knows how the lease/arena situation effects finances (and we're just NOW out the other side and an ACTUAL NHL franchise on equal footing as everyone else for the first time since they allowed ads on the boards in 1985/86....)


The Coyotes haven't had a freaking prayer to be successful in 25 years. You're right that 25 years of doing it wrong can totally make a fan base non-receptive. But the Coyotes have never had a single season of playing in an NHL Arena, ACCESSIBLE TO THE MARKET. Not sure how long you've been reading before replying, but I live here. I'd own Coyotes season tickets if my office was in Glendale, but it's in Gilbert so I live in Gilbert. My first year living here, I left the Gilbert office at 5 for the Islanders game, got to the arena with 6:23 left in the first period.

I have taken a day off from work when the Islanders are in town ever since. I can't get to the arena. I'm in the East Valley and the arena is on the western edge of the west valley. People who don't live here talk about "East Valley" and "West Valley" like it's "Left" or "Right" of downtown Phoenix. That's not what this market is.

The market is shaped like a bow-tie. There is an "outer loop" like most market have, designed in the 1930s during the New Deal; that puts Glendale on the outer loop (10 o'clock), and Tempe on the outer loop (3 o'clock). Tempe is the knot of the bow tie. The East Valley is DIVIDED BY MOUNTAINS and "2 million people live there now when it was no one in the 1930s did" situation.



I understand your point about "haven't Phoenix fans been alienated already," but when you break it down by access, the people within 25 minutes of Glendale are like 20% of the market. The people within 20 minutes of Tempe are 90% of the market.

And this is a transplant market. NFL rules sports fandom as way more popular than any other sport. But more people here are Suns fans that Cardinal fans because the Suns had a 22-year head start. You CAN build a hockey fan base here. You just have to do everything in your power to covert the masses. And the arena situation, and the ownership situation has done EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.



I'm gonna be insane right now. I'm gonna say the Coyotes get the Tempe Arena project approved, build the arena, and in 2032 have a higher franchise value than the Blues and Sabres. Those ARE hockey markets. But the Blues and Sabres are SMALL hockey markets. Phoenix is a market that is huge but hasn't embraced hockey. But if they're ever accessible and don't suck, the market will. Because hockey is awesome and every other sport sucks in comparison. So let's bump this in 2032 and see what is what.


We gotta search this in 10 years, so use #TaylorSwifIsASongwritingGod and find it.

I would like Phoenix to do well. If they do start to turn it around I think they can be successful. I don't see how the end up adding more eyeballs to the league as a whole. Locally if they do well I would expect TV numbers to go up but adding more eyeballs to national games is doubtful. Its not just Phoenix, it's all US markets. As great as hockey is, one thing that is a negative and the MLB has the same issue, is fans tune out when their teams are out.

 

[Legion34]

On the other hand, the constant whining after those decades that Arizona *does* still have a team is equally embarrassing. moreso even. It's a shame that lot don't have their own forum where they can go commiserate to their heart's content how upset they are that all the NHL teams aren't where they want them. But no, framing it as an aspect of "business" (although some of their business acumen is, ahem, suspect - to put it mildly), they hang out here, with the same arguments, over and over, year after year, mashing the like button along the way. Sad.

Nope. Revenue sharing means all other fans who pay in some way or another for a bankrupt team have an interest.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Nope. Revenue sharing means all other fans who pay in some way or another for a bankrupt team have an interest.

I'll let the islanders fan(s) here correct you on that, as they have done so many times.

 

[Legion34]

I'll let the islanders fan(s) here correct you on that, as they have done so many times.

Nope. There are former agents players. GMs and coaches who repeatedly have Talked about this. It is inescapable.

Revenue sharing means that broke teams like get money from other teams profits. Teams get revenues from fans whether thar is from merch. Tv packages. Tickets etc.

The only reason I have cable now is because of the blackouts for local hockey.

You can debate the amount that other fans support the team. But they do. So they have an interest

Islanders fans are free to be as wrong as they like.

 

[MNNumbers]

Burke/Gluckstern wanted to move them to Minnesota but they wanted either $8 million a year subsidy to play in the Target Center or like $40 million to renovate the St Paul Civic Center (St Paul offered $20 million) so then the NHL called Collangelo and made the deal for Phoenix, which as we know didn't have a good hockey venue.

Very interesting to me in regard to the St Paul angle on Gluckstern. 40M would have been cheaper than the Xcel Center.

I would love to read more about that if you have a link.

 

[sh724]

Not quite. Have you noticed Everything costs so much more in the states now? There are enough people who are paying for items now…. But costs go up because overhead goes up.
Revenue sharing occurs throughout the league. Teams like Toronto/NYR have to pay for the salaries of arizona and others.

That causes the price to rise. Many fans/businesses now pay for seasons tickets. They have to renew because they will go down to 20 year lists.

The idea that Arizona fans think that they are somehow entitled to other fans supporting the team and “woe is me” when millions of other people are hockey fans who don’t get a team is silly.

Heck. There are teams in Ireland and Australia that get 000s to games.

People pay large prices in cities like Toronto because people in cities like Toronto are willing to pay those prices, it really is that simple when it comes to ticket prices.

The Leafs (and evey other team) set ticket prices to maximum arena revenues. The leafs do not set their prices based on the financial capacity of any other NHL team. The Leafs are a for profit entity and as such try to produce as much revenue as possible. If revenue sharing was eliminated they arent going to lower their prices they are going to pocket the money.

Yes operating expenses are increasing and generally do every year but there is nothing requiring the Leafs to have player salaries as high as they are. They can always find a cheaper coach, cheaper trainer, cheaper etc. They choose not to. Why do they choose not to? Bc they know they can keep increasing ticket prices every year with little to no push back because the market can support it. This is the advantage teams like Toronto have, they are not able to buy FA like they could in a pre cap world, but they can pay for better coaches, better trainers, better facilities, etc.

Do teams like Toronto want to pay revenue sharing? No, no business wants to pay any more than they have to for anything. But they understand its a necessity to make the league better. If every team that struggles financially is moved or eliminated the legaue would quickly fall apart.

Every league, even the NFL has some form of revenue sharing. In the NFL the home team is required to give the away team a certain % of ticket sales. It doesnt matter what ticket prices are. Team A could charge 10x that of team B but they both pay the same % of the total.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Not quite. Have you noticed Everything costs so much more in the states now? There are enough people who are paying for items now…. But costs go up because overhead goes up.
Revenue sharing occurs throughout the league. Teams like Toronto/NYR have to pay for the salaries of arizona and others.

That causes the price to rise. Many fans/businesses now pay for seasons tickets. They have to renew because they will go down to 20 year lists.

The idea that Arizona fans think that they are somehow entitled to other fans supporting the team and “woe is me” when millions of other people are hockey fans who don’t get a team is silly.

Heck. There are teams in Ireland and Australia that get 000s to games.

Uh, that's not how economics works. It's simple supply and demand. There are X amount of people willing to go to a hockey game, and there are Y amount of people that are willing to pay a certain amount of money to go to those games. The fact that these guys make money and contribute to revenue sharing has 0 impact on the ticket prices.

 

[BMN]

I will say that if fans of Canadian teams (myself as a Habs fan included) are mad because "we pay $$$ to subsidize teams like the Coyotes" (which is an oversimplification I don't have the time to argue right now but I'm sure many have in the long history of this board, just in the Yotes threads alone), they should direct more venom towards the Canadian owners than the commissioner of the day.

I think Gary Bettman is a pretty lousy commissioner, historically speaking, and I'm highly critical of how he's handled the Phoenix situation from day one. But the whole "we need to be mad at him because Canadian fans are tired of paying $$$ to...." is one area where I don't see the point of lambasting him. It's not like Gary Bettman was the one that delayed Vancouver from getting a team four years earlier than it did. It wasn't Gary Bettman that begrudgingly accepted WHA Canadian teams only to completely cripple two of them competitively in the transfer. It wasn't Gary Bettman for a whom a beer boycott was needed to get that transfer to be approved in the first place. It wasn't Gary Bettman who ruined the 1992 Hamilton bid that should have been a slam dunk. And so on and so forth.

There are zero reasons for any owners of the Canadian teams to advocate for more Canadian teams and until Canadian hockey fans find it in themselves to find a way to financially punish those owners accordingly, you can look forward to Quebec City and the rest of Ontario waiting forever for another team to appear.

 

[gstommylee]

I will say that if fans of Canadian teams (myself as a Habs fan included) are mad because "we pay $$$ to subsidize teams like the Coyotes" (which is an oversimplification I don't have the time to argue right now but I'm sure many have in the long history of this board, just in the Yotes threads alone), they should direct more venom towards the Canadian owners than the commissioner of the day.

I think Gary Bettman is a pretty lousy commissioner, historically speaking, and I'm highly critical of how he's handled the Phoenix situation from day one. But the whole "we need to be mad at him because Canadian fans are tired of paying $$$ to...." is one area where I don't see the point of lambasting him. It's not like Gary Bettman was the one that delayed Vancouver from getting a team four years earlier than it did. It wasn't Gary Bettman that begrudgingly accepted WHA Canadian teams only to completely cripple two of them competitively in the transfer. It wasn't Gary Bettman for a whom a beer boycott was needed to get that transfer to be approved in the first place. It wasn't Gary Bettman who ruined the 1992 Hamilton bid that should have been a slam dunk. And so on and so forth.

There are zero reasons for any owners of the Canadian teams to advocate for more Canadian teams and until Canadian hockey fans find it in themselves to find a way to financially punish those owners accordingly, you can look forward to Quebec City and the rest of Ontario waiting forever for another team to appear.

Bettman doesn't make the decision and the fans punishing the owners cause they aren't adding more canada teams is now you don't get more canada teams. Canada isn't owed a darn thing.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Nope. There are former agents players. GMs and coaches who repeatedly have Talked about this. It is inescapable.

Revenue sharing means that broke teams like get money from other teams profits. Teams get revenues from fans whether thar is from merch. Tv packages. Tickets etc.

The only reason I have cable now is because of the blackouts for local hockey.

You can debate the amount that other fans support the team. But they do. So they have an interest

Islanders fans are free to be as wrong as they like.

Look, it's fine that you're bitter. But it doesn't make you correct. And you can continue to double down on your incorrectness here as long as you like.

 

[aqib]

Very interesting to me in regard to the St Paul angle on Gluckstern. 40M would have been cheaper than the Xcel Center.

I would love to read more about that if you have a link.

Winnipeg Jets to Relocate in Desert

PHOENIX (AP) _ What began with an exploratory phone call from Canada likely will end with the Winnipeg Jets relocating to the desert next season. Jerry Colangelo, president of the NBA's Phoenix Suns, said Monday that a deal to move the NHL team here should be completed sometime this week...

apnews.com

I would guess that if they had done that it would have needed to be replaced by now.

 

[1CasualFan]

I know that replying to this will only drag BOH further into the abyss - but MegaThread gonna MegaThread...

It’s not just one guy. It’s the idea that Arizona is somehow owed a team because a few support it. You could make the same argument across North America.

Nobody is owed anything. That sounds like an idea you kind of just conjured up all by yourself.

The NHL is a sports entertainment product. The league collectively decides where to place the teams based on their opportunities and their market research. So how about this: buy a team, get a seat on the BOG, and then you'll have a say on where the franchises are located. (Anthony LeBlanc did it, so I don't want to hear that it's impossible!)

Original 6 fans have to pay 1500 bucks to take a family of 4 to the game. Fans of other teams have to support weaker franchises financially.

If you do not think the NHL product is worth the price, try this on for size: don't go.

 

[TheLegend]

Nope. Revenue sharing means all other fans who pay in some way or another for a bankrupt team have an interest.

Half the teams in the league get revenue sharing. Including a couple of Canadian ones. And it doesn’t mean squat as to the ticket prices fans pay.

Penguins have had two bankruptcies.

How many more dead horses do we need to flog??

And with that…. unless there’s something actually NEW to discuss they just poured the floor to the annex at ASU’s MPA this morning and I’m going to go watch the concrete set.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Uh, what? Rexall was outdated and had to be replaced. It was not decent.

At least it terms of amenities that makes owners money. Purely structure wise, maybe it would have been good for another 20.

Honda Center has enough suites and modern amenities. Not all arenas age the same.

The Oilers loan agreement required them to sell to a local group if one emerged. Also Bettman couldn't afford to have a third Canadian team leave in 3 years. Especially one that was so well supported and had a decent arena that was good for another 20 years.

The Ducks signed a 25 year extension a couple of years ago. The lease runs throug