Prospect Info: Current #2 overall poll and discussion

[goonybird]

I was never criticising him. Lol Jesus

 

[Guttersniped]

What are people thoughts on flipping Pick 2 and 2nd Round Pick and expendable player/s (Boqvist, Zacha, Johnsson, Tatar) to Columbus in a package for Pick 6 and Pick 12.

We keep Pick 6 and select one of Jiricek/Nemec/Gauthier.

And use Pick 12 as a trade asset - to Minnesota for Kevin Fiala for example.

Columbus won’t give a shit about our scraps, they have a lot of forward depth and need quality. That’s a lot to give up for #2 in this draft and Columbus doesn’t have a lot of picks.

I could see a pick trade in theory actually if Fitz is determined to trade for a player because multiple picks gives you a lot more flexibility to trade for a player and even still draft reasonably high.

It’s really hard to say what that pick trade would look like though. That obviously depends on what teams really would want the pick and what they have to offer.

The buzz kill is that the team 3 1sts & 4 2nds, Arizona, has almost no reason to do it. Seattle needs quantity over quality at this point, they barely have any prospects. Detroit has one extra 2nd. Buffalo at 9th is the first team with a bunch of extra picks.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Columbus won’t give a shit about our scraps, they have a lot of forward depth and need quality. That’s a lot to give up for #2 in this draft and Columbus doesn’t have a lot of picks.

I could see a pick trade in theory actually if Fitz is determined to trade for a player because multiple picks gives you a lot more flexibility to trade for a player and even still draft reasonably high.

It’s really hard to say what that pick trade would look like though. That obviously depends on what teams really would want the pick and what they have to offer.

The buzz kill is that the team 3 1sts & 4 2nds, Arizona, has almost no reason to do it. Seattle needs quantity over quality at this point, they barely have any prospects. Detroit has one extra 2nd. Buffalo at 9th is the first team with a bunch of extra picks.

We don’t need quantity either though. We have full cupboards and this is an opportunity to get another elite talent first first-line potential to round out our top 6.

Slafkovsky Hughes Mercer
Bratt Hischier Holtz/Sharangovich

 

[JimEIV]

He also came up through the Finnish system.

I don't like using any international #s really. They're all-star tournaments at best and exhibitions at worst. Prefer to see how people play coached properly, with players they've adapted to, in roles (big and small), etc.

Slafkovsky's biggest statistical strength is probably his Liiga playoff numbers which were strong. Still think at 6'4" he should be swinging junior players around by their ankles, but at worst it's a passive advantage that'll help him keep him from getting tossed around like Hughes was in year 1

He didn't play his first games in the men's league until this season... Again go look at every single player that he has been compare to.... Every single one of them played in the men's league before their draft year. And of course all are Finnish, some of them playing in their home town. And most of those players did little to nothing in their first games in Liiga D -1. It makes sense it was often their introduction to the league.

So you have a 17 year old getting his first opportunity against men in a bottom 6 role...he had 5 points in his first 25 games... Then at the end of the season he had 5 points in 6 games which seem to carry into the playoffs with 7 points in 18 games.

His last 24 games in Liiga he had 12 points.

Between the TPS U20 team and international play he played as many games as in Liiga...but those 25 games in his introduction to the men's league seem to be the focal point.

I personally think this is the formula to talk yourself out of selecting a great player

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

He didn't play his first games in the men's league until this season... Again go look at every single player that he has been compare to.... Every single one of them played in the men's league before their draft year. And of course all are Finnish, some of them playing in their home town. And most of those players did little to nothing in their first games in Liiga D -1. It makes sense it was often their introduction to the league.

So you have a 17 year old getting his first opportunity against men in a bottom 6 role...he had 5 points in his first 25 games... Then at the end of the season he had 5 points in 6 games which seem to carry into the playoffs with 7 points in 18 games.

His last 24 games in Liiga he had 12 points.

Between the TPS U20 team and international play he played as many games as in Liiga...but those 25 games in his introduction to the men's league seem to be the focal point.

I personally think this is the formula to talk yourself out of selecting a great player

Agree with the entirety of a Jim-post

 

[Oneiro]

He didn't play his first games in the men's league until this season... Again go look at every single player that he has been compare to.... Every single one of them played in the men's league before their draft year. And of course all are Finnish, some of them playing in their home town. And most of those players did little to nothing in their first games in Liiga D -1. It makes sense it was often their introduction to the league.

So you have a 17 year old getting his first opportunity against men in a bottom 6 role...he had 5 points in his first 25 games... Then at the end of the season he had 5 points in 6 games which seem to carry into the playoffs with 7 points in 18 games.

His last 24 games in Liiga he had 12 points.

Between the TPS U20 team and international play he played as many games as in Liiga...but those 25 games in his introduction to the men's league seem to be the focal point.

I personally think this is the formula to talk yourself out of selecting a great player

Oh look, you can understand context - just selectively, when it fits your bias.

I don't mind picking Slaf either but seeing you run the gears to defend him this way is funny. All this to prop up objectively thin production and international production against the weaker tournament competition, but somehow, two COVID seasons and a team with zero impact veterans doesn't matter when it comes to other top 5 picks...

 

[JimEIV]

Oh look, you can understand context - just selectively, when it fits your bias.

I don't mind picking Slaf either but seeing you run the gears to defend him this way is funny. All this to prop up objectively thin production and international production against the weaker tournament competition, but somehow, two COVID seasons and a team with zero impact veterans doesn't matter when it comes to other top 5 picks...

Every single NHL player had to deal with similar circumstances in 2020 and 21.
In 20 and 21 we had plenty of veterans...Greene was still here, Subban was here, Palmieri was here, Zajac was here ...

There's context then there's bullshit narratives to try to excuse the worst performance from a #1 overall in the last 20- years.

Don't hate truth

 

[goonybird]

He didn't play his first games in the men's league until this season... Again go look at every single player that he has been compare to.... Every single one of them played in the men's league before their draft year. And of course all are Finnish, some of them playing in their home town. And most of those players did little to nothing in their first games in Liiga D -1. It makes sense it was often their introduction to the league.

So you have a 17 year old getting his first opportunity against men in a bottom 6 role...he had 5 points in his first 25 games... Then at the end of the season he had 5 points in 6 games which seem to carry into the playoffs with 7 points in 18 games.

His last 24 games in Liiga he had 12 points.

Between the TPS U20 team and international play he played as many games as in Liiga...but those 25 games in his introduction to the men's league seem to be the focal point.

I personally think this is the formula to talk yourself out of selecting a great player

I'm not using it to talk myself out of Slafkovsky because I didn't use it as a critique of him specifically. In fact I think his domestic production was pretty decent all things considered.

 

[Oneiro]

Every single NHL player had to deal with similar circumstances in 2020 and 21.
In 20 and 21 we had plenty of veterans...Greene was still here, Subban was here, Palmieri was here, Zajac was here ...

There's context then there's bullshit narratives to try to excuse the worst performance from a #1 overall in the last 20- years.

Don't hate truth

You're making excuses for some of the weakest numbers for a top 5 pick in draft history.

Don't hate truth.

 

[Forge]

What are people thoughts on flipping Pick 2 and 2nd Round Pick and expendable player/s (Boqvist, Zacha, Johnsson, Tatar) to Columbus in a package for Pick 6 and Pick 12.

We keep Pick 6 and select one of Jiricek/Nemec/Gauthier.

And use Pick 12 as a trade asset - to Minnesota for Kevin Fiala for example.

I'd consider 2 for 6 and 12. Not adding a second round pick for sure. Adding a guy like johnsson is whatever.

Not sure I'd trade 2 for 6 and 12, but I would consider it if only because I think that opens interesting options. You can easily keep 6, maybe end up with jiricek then flip 12 in a vet trade

 

[JimEIV]

You're making excuses for some of the weakest numbers for a top 5 pick in draft history.

Don't hate truth.

Weakest in history? Only if you make believe that he didn't dominate in TPS U20, didn't have an excellent Hlinka cup, didn't have a spectacular Olympic games, didn't have a very good Word Championship and ignore his playoff success in Liiga...and solely focus on 1/2 of the Liiga 60 game season in his first games playing in a men's league... I guess?

But to me what are saying makes almost no sense?

 

[bossram]

IMO I'd also be concerned with Cooley's production. There are some scouts who believe he will be the best player in the draft, most talented, etc.

If that were the case, I would expect near-historic USNTDP production from him - closer to Jack Hughes' level of production that would fit a 1st overall calibre player. Production-wise, he looks more like something between a Zegras/Turcotte/Caufield/Keller-calibre prospect. None of them were considered in the top tier of the draft, at the time.

 

[Oneiro]

Weakest in history? Only if you make believe that he didn't dominate in TPS U20, didn't have an excellent Hlinka cup, didn't have a spectacular Olympic games, didn't have a very good Word Championship and ignore his playoff success in Liiga...and solely focus on 1/2 of the Liiga 60 game season in his first games playing in a men's league... I guess?

But to me what are saying makes almost no sense?

Feign confusion all you want but worse numbers than Kakko, who had a similar round of tournament success prior to his draft, let alone Kotkaniemi, Rantanen, Barkov, etc? For number two overall, that's not a risk? And an Olympics against non-NHL competition and a WC where the majority of his points came against France, Italy and Kazakhstan? Or is that too much context for you?

And I even like the player and don't mind that we pick him at all, but you selectively choose which facts are convenient for you and disregard anything that doesn't align with your myopic view of how teams should be built. Slaf is a promising but risky pick but you just like the profile and will dance your way into making it work intellectually, as with everything else.

 

[BurntToast]

Trade it with Columbus, select Cutter.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

I'd be ok with everyone in the above poll besides Kemell, who I would've be ok at 5 but I think 2 is too high for him.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Trade it with Columbus, select Cutter.

No thanks.

 

[JimEIV]

Feign confusion all you want but worse numbers than Kakko, who had a similar round of tournament success prior to his draft, let alone Kotkaniemi, Rantanen, Barkov, etc? For number two overall, that's not a risk? And an Olympics against non-NHL competition and a WC where the majority of his points came against France, Italy and Kazakhstan? Or is that too much context for you?

And I even like the player and don't mind that we pick him at all, but you selectively choose which facts are convenient for you and disregard anything that doesn't align with your myopic view of how teams should be built. Slaf is a promising but risky pick but you just like the profile and will dance your way into making it work intellectually, as with everything else.

There is no confusion feigned or otherwise. You are choosing to literally ignore more than half of his 2021-22 hockey to make some sort of stupid point.

 

[StevenToddIves]

He didn't play his first games in the men's league until this season... Again go look at every single player that he has been compare to.... Every single one of them played in the men's league before their draft year. And of course all are Finnish, some of them playing in their home town. And most of those players did little to nothing in their first games in Liiga D -1. It makes sense it was often their introduction to the league.

So you have a 17 year old getting his first opportunity against men in a bottom 6 role...he had 5 points in his first 25 games... Then at the end of the season he had 5 points in 6 games which seem to carry into the playoffs with 7 points in 18 games.

His last 24 games in Liiga he had 12 points.

Between the TPS U20 team and international play he played as many games as in Liiga...but those 25 games in his introduction to the men's league seem to be the focal point.

I personally think this is the formula to talk yourself out of selecting a great player

This is 100% exactly correct.

 

[Xirik]

We don’t need quantity either though. We have full cupboards and this is an opportunity to get another elite talent first first-line potential to round out our top 6.

Slafkovsky Hughes Mercer
Bratt Hischier Holtz/Sharangovich

are cupboards are a bit barren in RD and LW which having either LW Gauthier/RD jiricek/RD Nemec at 6OV and RD Chelsey /LW Kulich/LW Miroshnichenko at 12OV.

Any of those players would instantly be our best prospect in each postion.

So I defnitely think there is an arugment to be had.

-Edit Yurov is not LW

 

[BurntToast]

This is 100% exactly correct.

I have a few questions to any prospect follower. @StevenToddIves

1) What’s the difference between SHL and the Liiga?

Guys barely score there and are top 5. Example: Raymond.

2) How much do you feel previous experience count?

D-1: Kakko 6gp TPS 38gp U20
Rantanen 37gp TPS 17gp U20
Slafkovsky 0gp TPS 16gp U20

I know the answer. I just think others need to see. Somehow there is still a Canadian bias. Yes, Wright lost a lot of time but so did everyone else. What is crazy to me, this was considered a great draft year last year and the year before. It’s now weak because the prospect struggled but some scouts have 1 round grades well into the second.

It’s unfortunate because our new staff seems to favor playing experience.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

are cupboards are a bit barren in RD and LW which having either LW Gauthier/RD jiricek/RD Nemec at 6OV and RD Chelsey /LW Kulich/LW Miroshnichenko at 12OV.

Any of those players would instantly be our best prospect in each postion.

So I defnitely think there is an arugment to be had.

-Edit Yurov is not LW

We’re not at a quantity over quality stage. Even if our cupboards are weak at certain positions we have a young team and lots of young prospects. We won’t necessarily need a RD anytime soon even if Sevo leaves. We have Dougie long-term and then we have a bunch of LD prospects including some that can play their off-side. We have lots of wingers.
We need to get the most talented player we possibly can. Which is Slafkovsky IMO. We can use the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds to fill in at some more bare positions. I’m not passing up an opportunity for to get an absolute star left winger and great fit in to fill in an extra spot in our prospect cupboards.

 

[Offseason Champs]

I can't believe that a year we're picking 2OA is more incredibly frustrating and annoying than the back and forth when we picked 1OA twice. If they're gonna trade 2OA it's gonna be for a lot more than two picks (and give a team in your own division a player you decided to pass on, because that never comes back to bite you) - you trade it for a roster player. Of all the rumored available names I'd only consider moving it for the Big Cat or Pasta and literally no one else. Otherwise I pick Slaf and start looking at who to draft in the 2nd round.

 

[Forge]

Where would slaf compare as a prospect to someone like dubois? Obviously slaf is a wing, but otherwise

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Where would slaf compare as a prospect to someone like dubois? Obviously slaf is a wing, but otherwise

It’s hard to say. I think Slaf is more skilled but Dubois was and is a physical, dominant two-way center who can do everything. I think Slafkovsky has higher offensive potential but Dubois would probably be ranked higher than him and possibly even or just higher than Wright if he was in this draft class.

It’s really hard and not really quite so simple to compare prospects from previous draft classes to current ones.

It’s a bit easier for me at least to talk about and gauge against the number 1 guy in Wright. Especially with how complicated of a prospect Slafkovsky is. And then it’s dependent on where you view Slafkovsky relative to Wright.

Wright is probably the number 1 prospect in 2021. At worst he’s going 2nd or maybe even 3rd if Buffalo and Seattle really love Power and Beniers.
Range: 1-3, 3 not overly likely

In 2020 he’s probably in that 2, 3 conversation with Stutzle and Byfield or just outside of it as the next guy.
Range: 2-4

In 2019, I’d say he’s going 3rd over Dach but could also be taken over Kakko if it’s the right team picking.
Range: 2-3, 2 not overly likely

In 2018, he’s probably going 3rd but It wouldn’t be shocking again if he went 2nd.
Range: 2-3, 2 not overly likely

In 2017, he’s going first no question.
Range: 1

In 2016, I think he’s in that Puljujarvi and Dubois conversation but could realistically fall to 5. Range: 3-5

Same idea with 2015, I’d say he’s in that next group of guys after Mcdavid and Eichel. Range: 3-6

2014, he’s probably challenging for #1 but I honestly don’t have a good enough memory of that far back so I’m gonna stop here.

 

[Comparison Ford]

we’re takin Slaf