Crosby and his future with the Penguins

[HandshakeLine]

I don't care what Crosby says in interviews. I hope he's saying things at practice or on the bench or on the ice.

Post-game interviews are completely irrelevant.

 

[TheCraigAdamsZone]

I think they need to be saying things about that top pairing. Cole and Letang are a combined -23. That's pretty terrible. 2nd pairing of Maata and the hated Scuderi are +16. Cole/Letang just aren't working.

 

[PensBandwagonerNo272*]

Whether it's just his personality or in response to being constantly under a microscope and overly criticized by the media, Crosby has never been vocal publicly and that isn't going to change.

 

[MrWilson*]

What does playing/winning a Stanley Cup with Crosby, 6 years ago, have to do with being any good now?

That line of thinking is exactly why Kunitz/Scuderi/Dupuis are still around, and treated as if they're good players, when they're clearly not.

Kennedy was a nice player for us back then, but there's a reason he's not on a NHL team right now. He's just not good anymore.

Kunitz...36...Scuderi...36...Dupuis...36...Cullen...39 These guys are older than dirt and better? You're kidding right? Only reason these guys are around is because they were signed for too much for too long by idiotic Penguin management. Got nothing to do with how good they are. How are they better than TK? How are Sprong and Rust better? Not seeing that.

'not good' is a relative idea in this league, BTW. Again, not advocating signing TK, just asked the question. Got an answer. Then the attacks start. Typical HF crap.

Back to Sid--he is going the way of these four guys. What's special about Sid right now? Anything? Nope. He's a 'star'...that isn't showing much. Guy is tentative, without energy, hesitant and making blind plays all over the ice. Concussion health? He's not real hard to defend against anymore in case you haven't noticed and he's clearly not leading this team in any way shape or form. How does that make him worth that extended deal he has? Answer: It doesn't. And it was a bad contract to enter into with a guy that was scrambled upstairs and apparently still is, at least to the extent that he can't manage all he's getting paid to do.

Maybe he needs rest? A dark room?....or scratched. Not having him out there wouldn't affect the Penguins one bit at this point. 17-2-7-9 and a -8

 

[Asuna]

Kunitz...36...Scuderi...36...Dupuis...36...Cullen...39 These guys are older than dirt and better? You're kidding right? Only reason these guys are around is because they were signed for too much for too long by idiotic Penguin management. Got nothing to do with how good they are. How are they better than TK? How are Sprong and Rust better? Not seeing that.

'not good' is a relative idea in this league, BTW. Again, not advocating signing TK, just asked the question. Got an answer. Then the attacks start. Typical HF crap.

Cullen/Sprong/Rust are better than Kennedy, yes.

Kunitz/Scuderi/Dupuis are garbage. I didn't compare them to Kennedy at all, I just brought them up because your line of thinking (won a cup with Sid many years ago) is why they're still on the team.

You think those Kennedy is better than those players, that's fine. Every team in the league seems to disagree with you, seeing as how Kennedy isn't employed right now.

 

[Winger for Hire]

What in the name of Robby Brown do concussions have to do with any of this?

In the last two season he's put up 104 and 84 points... I don't think his brain is scrambled.

 

[HandshakeLine]

What in the name of Robby Brown do concussions have to do with any of this?

It's a recurring meme with some posters these days. Were I only a doctor, I would be able to tell you allllll about it.

 

[PensandCaps]

Cullen/Sprong/Rust are better than Kennedy, yes.

Kunitz/Scuderi/Dupuis are garbage. I didn't compare them to Kennedy at all, I just brought them up because your line of thinking (won a cup with Sid many years ago) is why they're still on the team.

You think those Kennedy is better than those players, that's fine. Every team in the league seems to disagree with you, seeing as how Kennedy isn't employed right now.

kennedy sucks. whats next. sign cooke, trade for talbot and fedatanko and get billy g outta retirement?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

After reading this thread, I wish some people would just stick to lurking rather than posting. It's almost like they haven't watched a game since the 2010 season or something.

 

[Til the End of Time]

What in the name of Robby Brown do concussions have to do with any of this?

In the last two season he's put up 104 and 84 points... I don't think his brain is scrambled.

oftentimes the true effects of concussions aren't experienced until years or decades after the initial trauma. when you get a concussion (obviously this is very basic explanation) inflammation, edema, and sometimes bleeding or ischemia develop immediately (can be in one focal part of the brain or diffusely). those account for the typical "post-concussive symptoms" we are all familiar with. but as the inflammation goes away, you get remodeling, gliosis, hypertrophy of support cells, etc (basically scarring of the brain), it occurs at different rates for different people. during this time you can get more subtle deficits.... changes in executive function, coordination, mood, memory, personality. this is obviously a pretty hot area of research in the literature, but that's all pretty well-established.

so i maintain that it's possible that the chronic effects of sid's concussion(s) are setting in. its certainly plausible. i also just generally have a hard time buying that sid is feeling no ill effects from his concussion. i dont know of any other athlete (though i only really follow hockey) that missed as much time as sid did due to a concussion and came back 100%. bergeron is one example but the general consensus from B's fans is that he's still good but not as good as he was pre-concussion (though i dont know who missed more games, sid or bergeron).

 

[Winger for Hire]

oftentimes the true effects of concussions aren't experienced until years or decades after the initial trauma. when you get a concussion (obviously this is very basic explanation) inflammation, edema, and sometimes bleeding or ischemia develop immediately (can be in one focal part of the brain or diffusely). those account for the typical "post-concussive symptoms" we are all familiar with. but as the inflammation goes away, you get remodeling, gliosis, hypertrophy of support cells, etc (basically scarring of the brain), it occurs at different rates for different people. during this time you can get more subtle deficits.... changes in executive function, coordination, mood, memory, personality. this is obviously a pretty hot area of research in the literature, but that's all pretty well-established.

so i maintain that it's possible that the chronic effects of sid's concussion(s) are setting in. its certainly plausible. i also just generally have a hard time buying that sid is feeling no ill effects from his concussion. i dont know of any other athlete (though i only really follow hockey) that missed as much time as sid did due to a concussion and came back 100%. bergeron is one example but the general consensus from B's fans is that he's still good but not as good as he was pre-concussion (though i dont know who missed more games, sid or bergeron).

I understand that concussion effects can pop up well after the actual concussion. I guess what I'm getting at is that Sid was so hell bent on not coming back from his concussion until he was sure he felt 100% (and I know you can never really be 100% after something like that), and he was cleared well before he came back, to the point were people were complaining about him not coming back, I would think that he would be pretty sensitive to his body if he was feeling off.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong (because there was so much wrong and speculative information flying around during his time being injured), wasn't it said that he might not have suffered a concussion and it was some kind of weird neck injury that went undetected for a long time that was causing a lot of the symptoms and mimicking a concussion? Or was that one of the rumors, or not even a part of it?

 

[PensandCaps]

oftentimes the true effects of concussions aren't experienced until years or decades after the initial trauma. when you get a concussion (obviously this is very basic explanation) inflammation, edema, and sometimes bleeding or ischemia develop immediately (can be in one focal part of the brain or diffusely). those account for the typical "post-concussive symptoms" we are all familiar with. but as the inflammation goes away, you get remodeling, gliosis, hypertrophy of support cells, etc (basically scarring of the brain), it occurs at different rates for different people. during this time you can get more subtle deficits.... changes in executive function, coordination, mood, memory, personality. this is obviously a pretty hot area of research in the literature, but that's all pretty well-established.

so i maintain that it's possible that the chronic effects of sid's concussion(s) are setting in. its certainly plausible. i also just generally have a hard time buying that sid is feeling no ill effects from his concussion. i dont know of any other athlete (though i only really follow hockey) that missed as much time as sid did due to a concussion and came back 100%. bergeron is one example but the general consensus from B's fans is that he's still good but not as good as he was pre-concussion (though i dont know who missed more games, sid or bergeron).

other examples in other sports are jason bay, he was a superstar, gotta concussion missed a year and was never the same and was outta baseball in 2 years after his concussion

 

[Penguinator]

Next thing we know is that TTEOT is slowly working his way to instruct us (as the pseudo doctor/Crosby expert that he is) that Sid is actually now experimenting depression due to post-traumatic concussion syndrome which have nothing to do with *****in' at MJ's anti-offensive system...

 

[billybudd]

oftentimes the true effects of concussions aren't experienced until years or decades after the initial trauma. when you get a concussion (obviously this is very basic explanation) inflammation, edema, and sometimes bleeding or ischemia develop immediately (can be in one focal part of the brain or diffusely). those account for the typical "post-concussive symptoms" we are all familiar with. but as the inflammation goes away, you get remodeling, gliosis, hypertrophy of support cells, etc (basically scarring of the brain), it occurs at different rates for different people. during this time you can get more subtle deficits.... changes in executive function, coordination, mood, memory, personality. this is obviously a pretty hot area of research in the literature, but that's all pretty well-established.

so i maintain that it's possible that the chronic effects of sid's concussion(s) are setting in. its certainly plausible. i also just generally have a hard time buying that sid is feeling no ill effects from his concussion. i dont know of any other athlete (though i only really follow hockey) that missed as much time as sid did due to a concussion and came back 100%. bergeron is one example but the general consensus from B's fans is that he's still good but not as good as he was pre-concussion (though i dont know who missed more games, sid or bergeron).

Bergeron had a concussion and missed a lot of time, but my understanding is that his broken neck is what kept him out that long--not complications from the concussion.

Unless you think Crosby broke his neck, Perron's probably a more similar situation, where the concussion is what kept him out so long. Idk wtf he's doing in our uniform, but his career season came several years after this injury.

Edit: Gordie Howe had serious enough brain damage that he nearly died early in his career. He got the nickname "blinky" because he developed involuntary facial ticks. Played for 40 more years.

Your thesis is possible, but there are counterexamples.

 

[Til the End of Time]

I understand that concussion effects can pop up well after the actual concussion. I guess what I'm getting at is that Sid was so hell bent on not coming back from his concussion until he was sure he felt 100% (and I know you can never really be 100% after something like that), and he was cleared well before he came back, to the point were people were complaining about him not coming back, I would think that he would be pretty sensitive to his body if he was feeling off.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong (because there was so much wrong and speculative information flying around during his time being injured), wasn't it said that he might not have suffered a concussion and it was some kind of weird neck injury that went undetected for a long time that was causing a lot of the symptoms and mimicking a concussion? Or was that one of the rumors, or not even a part of it?

to your first paragraph, i think the chronic effects of concussions are much more subtle than the acute issues. in a sense the brain is re-programmed to a new norm, i dont think its the sort of symptoms were you can clearly put your finger on and know that its due to the concussion. sid might not even be aware that he's different.

yeah there were reports that he had a neck fracture that was causing all his symptoms, but that is an extremely hand-wavey explanation that doesn't hold up. it just doesnt make sense. his symptoms were not consistent with a vertebral fracture. also i worked with two people who were pretty ... knowledgable about that whole saga and they were pretty emphatic he suffered one, maybe two standard but severe concussions (definitely during the caps game, maybe another concussion against tb).

 

[Asuna]

to your first paragraph, i think the chronic effects of concussions are much more subtle than the acute issues. in a sense the brain is re-programmed to a new norm, i dont think its the sort of symptoms were you can clearly put your finger on and know that its due to the concussion. sid might not even be aware that he's different.

yeah there were reports that he had a neck fracture that was causing all his symptoms, but that is an extremely hand-wavey explanation that doesn't hold up. it just doesnt make sense. his symptoms were not consistent with a vertebral fracture. also i worked with two people who were pretty ... knowledgable about that whole saga and they were pretty emphatic he suffered one, maybe two standard but severe concussions (definitely during the caps game, maybe another concussion against tb).

I thought it was a 'soft tissue' injury to his neck, not a fracture. No idea if that changes things.

 

[Winger for Hire]

to your first paragraph, i think the chronic effects of concussions are much more subtle than the acute issues. in a sense the brain is re-programmed to a new norm, i dont think its the sort of symptoms were you can clearly put your finger on and know that its due to the concussion. sid might not even be aware that he's different.

yeah there were reports that he had a neck fracture that was causing all his symptoms, but that is an extremely hand-wavey explanation that doesn't hold up. it just doesnt make sense. his symptoms were not consistent with a vertebral fracture. also i worked with two people who were pretty ... knowledgable about that whole saga and they were pretty emphatic he suffered one, maybe two standard but severe concussions (definitely during the caps game, maybe another concussion against tb).

OK, thanks for clearing all that up for me.

I still don't think that the concussion(s) were/are enough to make his extension a problem. Risky, maybe, but everything is a risk in a contact sport.

I'd be more willing to buy into the concussion symptoms surfacing affecting his play more if his decline didn't happen at exactly the same point when every single Penguin started to decline (sans MAF, who's been terrific) and the team as a whole started looking like a discombobulated, lethargic mess.

 

[theicebox]

Theory: Craig Adams was the glue that held the team together.

 

[SidDidNothingWrong]

What in the name of Robby Brown do concussions have to do with any of this?

In the last two season he's put up 104 and 84 points... I don't think his brain is scrambled.

Dude, one bad season and it is all over, don'tcha know?

 

[Pancakes]

to your first paragraph, i think the chronic effects of concussions are much more subtle than the acute issues. in a sense the brain is re-programmed to a new norm, i dont think its the sort of symptoms were you can clearly put your finger on and know that its due to the concussion. sid might not even be aware that he's different.

yeah there were reports that he had a neck fracture that was causing all his symptoms, but that is an extremely hand-wavey explanation that doesn't hold up. it just doesnt make sense. his symptoms were not consistent with a vertebral fracture. also i worked with two people who were pretty ... knowledgable about that whole saga and they were pretty emphatic he suffered one, maybe two standard but severe concussions (definitely during the caps game, maybe another concussion against tb).

You're reading too much into his struggles. He was just fine last season, and would have won the Art Ross had he not missed as many games as he did.

This season is obviously off the rails but he didn't suffer any injuries last season so I doubt that concussions or whatever else are suddenly affecting him when he looked normal last season.

More likely he's just being killed by this crap coach and he will go back to being a PPG or better with a new coach.

 

[Mordax]

Sid's value to this franchise goes well beyond his play on the ice. I have a hard time believing that the front office (which is a business) would ever part ways with him without a lot of resistance.

 

[pistolpete11]

Maybe it has already been mentioned, but is it possible Crosby is more frustrated with the NHL than the Penguins? Even when Crosby was at his best, he would often times get frustrated and disappear against the tight checking, overly defensive structured teams like the Devils. It’s no secret the NHL has allowed clutching & grabbing back into the league and it is a league wide problem, Crosby more than most, but still league wide. Say what you will about the Penguins and their problems, but in the last few years they have done more than they have done since 2008 to get him legitimate linemates. It would be strange for him to pick the season when they went out and got him one of the best goal scorers in the league to show his displeasure.

It could definitely be the coaching staff as well, but I think they would make a move there before they ever entertained the idea of trading Crosby.

 

[Terrapin]

What in the name of Robby Brown do concussions have to do with any of this?

In the last two season he's put up 104 and 84 points... I don't think his brain is scrambled.

Bring back Robby Brown! My all time favorite player. Remember when Hextall chased him after a goal? lol

 

[Terrapin]

I"m like everyone else and know that MJ, Tocchet, etc have to be fired.

But, once and for all, as I"m not a professor of x's and o's, what exactly is it about MJ's 'system' that is the problem? I realize they're not scoring, but are the forwards coming too far back? D not pinching? Poor breakouts?

I don't dispute any or all of those things. But what I mostly see is a lot of lethargic play, shots that miss the net by 10 feet, zero battle level, stupid drop passes, several sub par forwards, and a horrid defense. Add in an atrocious PP that even after all these years, is still convinced it should make the perfect tic tac toe play every time.

The absolute worst system in the world can be somewhat overcome by the things I outlined in the 3rd paragraph. Sid, and everyone else on the team (save Fleury) is responsible for that

 

[Klondikeray]

I must be living in a different hockey universe.

17 games...no even handed goal. This isn't a penalty killing forward or defensive minded defenseman.
This is the first line center getting tons of ice time.

Any other first line center would have been on the bench or in the minors after 10 games. He is taking up space and opportunity.

It's not the other players or the coach. If a star player was playing with nobodies and had Yogi Bear for a coach he would have scored a couple of even handed goals by now. Jagr, Lafleur, Gretztky, Hull, etc. would have taken the puck end to end and stuck at least one in the net. Crosby has no fire in him.

He is done. Finished.