CageRage
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- Aug 15, 2009
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OT: Coronavirus XXI: School is Back in Session
- Thread starter Bryanbryoil
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Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
Times will always get better until we go extinct. That doesn't make current problems insignificant. We should always be looking for ways to improve standards of living, and not try to brush aside current problems because overall it's not as bad as it was before.
WW2 was absolutely devastating. Before that, goofs were hanging each other and calling each other witches. Before that, the Black Death annihilated hundreds of millions. Before that, cavemen were getting shredded by animals while trying to go out and hunt. Before even all that, our ancestors were minding their own business when they get stomped on by a dinosaur or something.
Not even going to touch your Trump takes.
No, we should look to have realistic takes on our expected standard of living which quite clearly isn't able to continue to improve indefinitely. How much is enough? For once would be nice to have some pragmatic realistic thinking that we're past illusions of being able to solve every problem in even the first world. I think one has to be a certain demographic to buy such nonsense as solving world poverty, solving homelessness, drug addiction, having zero accidents, having no unfortunate deaths..having no catastrophe.
We're trying to bubble wrap a world in which there is always going to be endless calamity and we spend a lot of money that could be going into a revitalized economy and trying to fix problems that never, ever, go away. The notion that we can fix every problem we see and just eradicate it is chasing rainbows. The perfect type of illusion that people get a warm glow from under the false guise that something momentous is actually being done.
The more focus on economy building the better, the less focus on solving unending selective problems the better. We can't do it all, and we now face austerity budgets so our priorities better be in line.
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harpoon
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- Dec 23, 2005
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Completely agree with this take. So many of the problems in society these days are a result of the ‘must keep growing the bottom line’ mindset that infects particularly the business world.
Climate issues facing the earth are clearly at least partly a result of an unbridled focus on growing the stock market at a ridiculous pace. How are we going to grow or even maintain current lifestyles when billions will need to be spent righting the (mostly recent) shortsighted decisions made in pursuit of fast growth? I mean the world just turned a blind eye to the environmental devastation caused by PRC for ten years at least because they wanted the cheap production and the ‘no questions asked’ oversight. Now they want Joe Citizen to cough up the money to right these mistakes? That’s some bullshit reasoning right there. Corporations who made ill gotten gains on the back of environmental destruction should be footing these bills - mandated by law if need be.
The ‘caught with our pants down’ evidence before us right now in regard to the world response to covid-19 is also a result of cutting corners, misplaced spending and bloated bureaucracy. Everyone knew a pandemic was the most dangerous thing we faced .... and had the global governing bodies (and leadership of major countries) spent even a fraction of the money that they spent ‘fighting terrorism’ on pandemic preparation, lives could have been saved, billions spent bailing out companies and private citizens could have been saved, and we’d all be a lot further down the road to recovery. How are we going to keep growing the standard of living when all the countries that drive the world economy are going broke fighting this pandemic?
You hinted at the issue of mass migration ... this is another massive problem. How are we supposed to ‘grow our lifestyle’ while absorbing millions of migrants? Who will foot the growing bills for the added strain on health care, education, housing etc?
Rampant capitalism has a lot to answer for which is why there are so many people turning to socialism as a way forward. It’s an illusion of course, but I can see why particularly younger people are disgusted by the situation we are in right now. I just hope they realize that socialism means a step backward in lifestyle for all but the poorest among us. The talk of ‘growing the standard of living‘ is a complete pipe dream if western society goes socialist. What we need to do is just as you suggest ... reign in the businesses and the stock markets that think double digit growth is a requirement. Realize how good life actually is now (relative to the past) and find sustainable ways to maintain the standard we have now while assisting poorer nations to make their own progress in a way that is healthy for the environment and all members of their society.
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Skar
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- Jul 2, 2016
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What do you suggest to reign in the businesses and stock markets? I'm a bit confused as to where you stand with regards to all this. I'm clearly in support of taxing corporations and having them pay for the damage they cause to the environment. That's a pretty progressive take I feel, which a lot of the older crowd likes to call socialism or the infamous communism.
@Drivesaitl Clearly our standards of living WILL keep improving, they have improved from even 10 years ago with new inventions and innovations. 30 years from now, there will certainly be more innovations and technologies to further our standards of living. Not sure where the idea of solving all of the worlds problems comes from, that wasn't even part of the discussion. The point is, in all of human history, there have been momentous achievements from people who look towards improving humanity. Why do you feel like we can't continue to move forward? Even the improvements to hybrid/electric vehicles will mitigate some damage to the environment.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
My ability to discuss any of these issues goes far beyond what I would detail here, and is overkill considering the topic of the thread. You chose to ridicule my take, fine. I responded. its the only one you get.
The one thing I will state is that increased consumption of any kind is economic cost and the price is high in expecting more and more people in the world to be able to live an improved lifestyle. I'll end with green endeavors like you cite certainly don't mitigate damage to environment when all costs are considered. But again a topic are far removed from the thread at hand.
Skar
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- Jul 2, 2016
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I know what you're talking about with the green endeavors, the hope is that the technology will improve so that eventually it will be a net positive. Anyways, you're right this is off topic. Have a good night.
GretzkytoKurri9917
"LIVE LONG AND PROSPER"
harpoon
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- Dec 23, 2005
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I mean I don't live there anymore, but haven't you been using Sweden as example for a bit? That is one of the most socialist countries in the world, and has been for a loooong time. Do people in NA who don't like socialism think that Sweden is an autharian State?
Anyhow, to the subject matter: Sweden has gone from a couple of hundred cases per day to almost 1000 yesterday. Stockholm hospitals have gone into emergency preparedness as they are seeing a rapid increase right now. Case numbers in Sweden right now are growing faster than in Italy, which is more or less considered to be entering a critical phase for new cases and hospitalisations.
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What's the community like in Sweden as far as how people treat each other. I do feel (at least in the past, when Canada may have been a bit of socialistic) that it was a better community of more selfless people than say a place like the US where it's more everyone out for themselves a bit more. I do feel maybe that the more socialistic value we have vs the states do mould the way we treat each other. I guess it's a matter of finding that right balance between socialism and capital freedom.
Raab
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- Oct 6, 2007
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Sweden and the Nordic countries have moved away from the traditional centralized government approach to socialism. While they have high taxes, and some social programs. They're no where near what they were in the 70's and 80's, instead turning towards a more market economy. For example if you look at Norway they have no minimum wage.
The Myth of Nordic Socialism
That is a hard question, too long to answer. In my opinion people don't care that much for their neighbours, with respect to the US for example. But I think most of those behaviors are cultural rather than political, everyone is very relaxed when it comes to unemployment, pregancy, sick leave, because the social system in place is pretty solid.
That said I vote for the right
So you should probably ask someone else, even though honestly I think our right wing would be considered left in NA.
Well to be fair socialist in most countries turn towards a mixed system, some social programs and market economy.
Equilibrium is often a good way forward imo. As I said though I vote right so I am the wrong person to ask questions. Although the right of the last 5 years is not the right of the past, not the right I grew up with as ideology, conservative is getting too influenced by populism nowadays.
Raab
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- Oct 6, 2007
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If they have a market economy, they're not traditional socialists. Traditionally socialism would imply centralized government control of the economy(planned economy)
I understand, but that has not existed here for a long time, and "socialists" running these days are market socialists. For me what you are talking about is much closer to comunismo than socialism.
Anyhow, I don't think this is on topic, and I know it's hotly debated issue in NA so it's very hard to debate...
... and again I don't vote for them so you should not be talking to me!!
Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
Quite simply people, some, ran out because the entire stock and inventory of TP was sold, and shelves absent of the stuff, anywhere, for about 5weeks.
We didn't run out, but a lot of people did. This meant people using all kinds of stuff and this resulted in clogging of a lot of sewers, even some back ups and such.
What it reveals basically is how precarious our supply chain is. Like many things, also sanitizer, and lysol products, we've gone in a big way to huge monopoly comglomerates and little competitions so that when the one main supplier runs out, there is none. The costs to cities of work on the sewer systems to rectify wtf people were flushing down was enormous, and should never occur. Cities and taxpayers end up eating this cost because of a horrendous problem in supply chain that ideally should not occur in a healthy running free market system, which this is not..
Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
Not trying to be annoying with some of these responses but a helpful reframe could be being thankful for any heatlth, mobility, vitality, you do have and being thankful of that most every day.
Aside from my what do they call it, bloviating online about fairly silly things like hockey teams I'm thankful every day I'm here, and find some joy in each day, and end each day in harmony with my wife at least. Can't say with everybody..
I think this kind of message is never more important than during a pandemic, and as I've stated several times Death rates from Covid are going down drastically in every country that has been facing the pandemic for several months. That is a huge positive, that hardly anybody is reflecting on.
Lastly, and I've said this before, any hardship, close call, etc we face makes us appreciate our days all the more and when this pandemic is over people will go back to really appreciating and being mindful of everything they have in life. In first world we have a lot.
GretzkytoKurri9917
"LIVE LONG AND PROSPER"
It's early but:
HAPPY THANKSGIVING WEEKEND EVERYONE!
HAPPY THANKSGIVING WEEKEND EVERYONE!
Experts say some Albertans becoming complacent in COVID-19 fight | Edmonton Journal
Often when faced with infectious diseases, people experience an “acute fear stage,” but then it fades and some revert to being less cautious, Saxinger said.
“We kind of got away with it for a while, but this virus doesn’t let us get away with much for very long before it shows us where the problems are, and right now we’re having a real community transmission problem,” she said.
It’s reasonable to start with voluntary restrictions, but there’s a very short time window to manage infections and prevent a peak in hospitalizations over the next one to two weeks, Saxinger said.
Dr. Louis Hugo Francescutti, an emergency room doctor and professor in the University of Alberta School of Public Health, said many Albertans are feeling a false sense of security.
“For most people, it hasn’t directly impacted them enough from a threat perspective that they take it seriously,” said Francescutti.
Francescutti said he felt fear and shock akin to being confronted by a grizzly bear when he looked at the X-rays of a COVID-19 patient who didn’t have severe symptoms. The images showed lungs full of pus, blood or infection, and the patient went to the ICU, he said.
“Silent hypoxia” occurs when oxygen levels are dangerously low, but patients don’t appear to have symptoms like shortness of breath.
Often when faced with infectious diseases, people experience an “acute fear stage,” but then it fades and some revert to being less cautious, Saxinger said.
“We kind of got away with it for a while, but this virus doesn’t let us get away with much for very long before it shows us where the problems are, and right now we’re having a real community transmission problem,” she said.
It’s reasonable to start with voluntary restrictions, but there’s a very short time window to manage infections and prevent a peak in hospitalizations over the next one to two weeks, Saxinger said.
Dr. Louis Hugo Francescutti, an emergency room doctor and professor in the University of Alberta School of Public Health, said many Albertans are feeling a false sense of security.
“For most people, it hasn’t directly impacted them enough from a threat perspective that they take it seriously,” said Francescutti.
Francescutti said he felt fear and shock akin to being confronted by a grizzly bear when he looked at the X-rays of a COVID-19 patient who didn’t have severe symptoms. The images showed lungs full of pus, blood or infection, and the patient went to the ICU, he said.
“Silent hypoxia” occurs when oxygen levels are dangerously low, but patients don’t appear to have symptoms like shortness of breath.
GretzkytoKurri9917
"LIVE LONG AND PROSPER"
Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
I vote we take a break from Covid since it's the Thanksgiving long weekend.
I just phoned up. Covid doesn't go on holidays, nothing but all business, every day, 24/7 but hinted the worst was over and the plague is tiring out. Said we would have a better Xmas than expected and plans to shut it down before boxing day because Mr Covid-19 has some shopping to do. At Target...
PS Mrs Covid was shouting in the background saying you never pay attention to me and I'm tired of all this distancing between us..
weird post of the night
GretzkytoKurri9917
"LIVE LONG AND PROSPER"
Drivesaitl
Finding Hemingway
You too. Everybody else as well. Lots of Turkeys in the stores. I mean in the freezers and fridges.
We got ours.
harvested the rest of the garden too so all this food coming up..
Raab
Registered User
- Oct 6, 2007
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Well the good news is we still havent seen much of an increase in hospitalizations and deaths. Slight abnormality a few days ago shooting up to 90, but then coming back down. Next two weeks will be key to knowing what will happen going forward.
In other news Randy Hillier brought to light the government is setting up internment/quarantine camps across the country. Theres no clear definition on who will be sent to the camps. Clearly the government is making these camps for our safety...
In other news Randy Hillier brought to light the government is setting up internment/quarantine camps across the country. Theres no clear definition on who will be sent to the camps. Clearly the government is making these camps for our safety...
rboomercat90
Registered User
I’ve rarely seen these anywhere since March. Where I have seen them is at two of the corner stores in my neighborhood. One store selling them for $10 and the other one for $9. These were $2-3 items at Walmart back in February. I thought this type of price gouging was illegal, guess I was wrong.
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