OT: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Part IV - II

[Fireonk]

I doubt governors of states need to be treated like children and have everything explained them.

Are you telling me that Cuomo or Di Blasio were utterly incapable of seeing what was going on and start to shut things down? Again, it is the governors who either shut things down or not. Which is why you see states not completely shut down. If you want to blame someone for not shutting down quickly enough, look no further than the local governor. You cannot simply dismiss their inaction and blame it all on Trump.

I mean I have called out others in like a dozen other posts now, I am in no way saying to blame it all on Trump. That is completely twisting what I have said.

Being straight with governors is not the same as treating them like children. Plenty of reports of states being outbid by the federal government for supplies after telling them to source it themselves. Hell, it seems like the definition of the national stockpile was changed mid pandemic - Strategic National Stockpile description altered online after Kushner’s remarks. You don't think that can cause some issues?

All evidence points to the sooner you act to this and take it seriously the better you fare. You can see it in action in California vs other states. And the person who had the best chance of acting early, Trump, didn't do enough to ready the country for what was coming.

 

[True Blue]

I hope ya'll who think that the travel ban absolves Trump of everything realize that under equipping hospitals/testings due to lack of proper preparation is a much, much, much bigger deal.

Just how is it that you absolve every single local governor?

 

[True Blue]

All evidence points to the sooner you act to this and take it seriously the better you fare. You can see it in action in California vs other states. And the person who had the best chance of acting early, Trump, didn't do enough to ready the country for what was coming.

Of course sooner is better than later, but again it is the local government who is responsible for shutting things down. And, in the case of NY, there was talk about how to react to a pandemic when Bloomberg was mayor. How is it that absolutely no action was taken? Worse, how is it that no new masks were renewed after their expiration date.

 

[Fireonk]

Of course sooner is better than later, but again it is the local government who is responsible for shutting things down. And, in the case of NY, there was talk about how to react to a pandemic when Bloomberg was mayor. How is it that absolutely no action was taken? Worse, how is it that no new masks were renewed after their expiration date.

And I haven't dismissed any of that. Let's look at what happened there, hold people accountable, and do our best to make sure it doesn't happen again. And I think the same has to be done with the president of the United States. Only trying to blame people not on your team is such a big mistake.

 

[OverTheCap]

The biggest failure at the federal level has been lack of testing, inaccurate tests that were rolled out in Jan/Feb, and the strict criteria that limited testing to only those who have traveled to China.

According to the article below from the Times, the coronavirus has been silently spreading in NY well before the first known case on March 1, and aggressive testing early on would have made the virus easier to track and contain.

In January, as the scope of the catastrophe in China became clear, a few countries started an aggressive testing program. They were able to track the arrival of the virus on their territory and track its spread through their populations.

But the United States fumbled in making its first diagnostic kits and initially limited testing only to people who had come from China and displayed symptoms of Covid-19.

“It was a disaster that we didn’t do testing,” Dr. Heguy said.
___________________________________________________
As new cases arose in other parts of the country, other researchers set up their own pipelines. The first positive test result in New York came on March 1, and after a couple of weeks, patients surged into the city’s hospitals.

“I thought, ‘We need to do this for New York,’” Dr. Heguy said.

Dr. Heguy and her colleagues found some New York viruses that shared unique mutations not found elsewhere. “That’s when you know you’ve had a silent transmission for a while,” she said.

Most New York Coronavirus Cases Came From Europe, Genomes Show

 

[Barnaby]

So you don’t think the president should be doing that either, right? Just making sure.

I agree. It goes both ways but he’s as bad as there is. I’m not here to be an apologist!

 

[Synergy27]

They already did. Biden called the ban racist and nothing more than fear mongering. Publications called the travel ban a continuation of his war on immigrants. The NY Times publicly questioned it.

Question, what’s worse, a virtue signaling politicized critique of a policy (if it’s not clear, I hate identity politics and the seeming desire of progressives to distill everything to it) or an in the open stance that an undeniably worsening global issue is a hoax? These things happened at about the same time. I’d argue the latter is worse, both substantively and because Biden ain’t in power so what he says right now doesn’t matter anyway.

Is anyone in this thread even supporting democratic leaders and their potential approaches had they been in power by the way? I see support for some foreign approaches that have been successful. This isn’t about what other people might have done, it’s about what the guy in charge did do, and continues to do.

Finally, it is my opinion that all of these people have been exposed as criminally underprepared. This entire response, to include the stimulus, is an open and obvious reminder that those in power are not looking out for you. Every single one of them should be criticized right now.

It seems to me that this president’s ability to continue to avoid critique from his supporters on essentially every front is a by product of the left’s constant attacks on him. This is a boy who cried wolf scenario playing out in real time, wherein the previous wolves were things like “Russia collusion”, and people are now so entrenched because of the relative frivolity of previous claims that they are unable, or unwilling, to budge now that something real is happening.

 

[Leonardo87]

Easter Bunny all ready to go....

 

[PuckLuck3043]

Question, what’s worse, a virtue signaling politicized critique of a policy (if it’s not clear, I hate identity politics and the seeming desire of progressives to distill everything to it) or an in the open stance that an undeniably worsening global issue is a hoax? These things happened at about the same time. I’d argue the latter is worse, both substantively and because Biden ain’t in power so what he says right now doesn’t matter anyway.

Is anyone in this thread even supporting democratic leaders and their potential approaches had they been in power by the way? I see support for some foreign approaches that have been successful. This isn’t about what other people might have done, it’s about what the guy in charge did do, and continues to do.

Finally, it is my opinion that all of these people have been exposed as criminally underprepared. This entire response, to include the stimulus, is an open and obvious reminder that those in power are not looking out for you. Every single one of them should be criticized right now.

It seems to me that this president’s ability to continue to avoid critique from his supporters on essentially every front is a by product of the left’s constant attacks on him. This is a boy who cried wolf scenario playing out in real time, wherein the previous wolves were things like “Russia collusion”, and people are now so entrenched because of the relative frivolity of previous claims that they are unable, or unwilling, to budge now that something real is happening.

This is absolutely true and will play a major role in this years election just like it did in 2016.

 

[will1066]

This is absolutely true and will play a major role in this years election just like it did in 2016.

The world today is just a bunch of narratives and is about who can push their narrative better and harder. Technology, i.e., social media and other digital forms of communication, has unwittingly made it easy for anyone to mobilize likeminded people and their narrative.

 

[True Blue]

And I haven't dismissed any of that. Let's look at what happened there, hold people accountable, and do our best to make sure it doesn't happen again. And I think the same has to be done with the president of the United States. Only trying to blame people not on your team is such a big mistake.

I agree with this. Unfortunately the blame game goes both ways. And is used for political football.

 

[True Blue]

The biggest failure at the federal level has been lack of testing, inaccurate tests that were rolled out in Jan/Feb, and the strict criteria that limited testing to only those who have traveled to China.

According to the article below from the Times, the coronavirus has been silently spreading in NY well before the first known case on March 1, and aggressive testing early on would have made the virus easier to track and contain.




Most New York Coronavirus Cases Came From Europe, Genomes Show

The same NY Times that not two months ago questioned the necessity of travel restrictions? Good to know that they are keeping their eye on the ball.

And of course it was spreading before that. It started to spread the second someone stepped of a plane from China. Or Venice. Or wherever.

I didn't see anyone calling for ANY travel bans at all. If Cuomo wanted to he could have easily imposed a quarantine on ANYONE stepping of a plane. He didn't. No, he CHOOSE not to.

 

[GordonGecko]

Doctors taking the time to actually understand what's happening suggest ventilators are useless:
Ventilators are overused for Covid-19 patients, doctors say - STAT

Basically with COVID the lung sacs get filled with pus which blocks the air from reaching the blood flow. No matter how hard you pump in air (which damages the lungs) you can't get enough oxygen into the blood because of the roadblock and patients die anyways and the 15% that make it have permanent lung and organ damage from the sedatives. People who were put on CPAP / BiPAP machines did just as well or better as ventilators

 

[True Blue]

Finally, it is my opinion that all of these people have been exposed as criminally underprepared. This entire response, to include the stimulus, is an open and obvious reminder that those in power are not looking out for you. Every single one of them should be criticized right now.

I think that the world was unprepared. And in the US, people started screaming about it too late. Of course, first they encouraged the acts that they now seek to distance themselves from.

For the record, I also detest identity politics. Unfortunately, they have become mainstream.

 

[Ola]

Doctors taking the time to actually understand what's happening suggest ventilators are useless:
Ventilators are overused for Covid-19 patients, doctors say - STAT

Basically with COVID the lung sacs get filled with pus which blocks the air from reaching the blood flow. No matter how hard you pump in air (which damages the lungs) you can't get enough oxygen into the blood because of the roadblock and patients die anyways and the 15% that make it have permanent lung and organ damage from the sedatives. People who were put on CPAP / BiPAP machines did just as well or better as ventilators

Yeah and I saw some stats of life expectancy for elders that has to get help from ventilators after getting pneumonia and it’s really crappy. 50% of the people that was declared healthy from the pneumonia after being on a ventilator was dead within a month. Think it was the 80+ group.

Don’t think it has that much to do with physical damage either, like they were real weak to start with and of course even weaker after a really tough decease.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Yeah most people weren't calling for a travel ban a couple months ago, but isn't it up to the people in positions of leadership on the federal level, who get clued into information way before the general public, to use that information with foresight and make the smart choices for the betterment of the public?

Or is that too much to ask? Haha

 

[True Blue]

Yeah most people weren't calling for a travel ban a couple months ago, but isn't it up to the people in positions of leadership on the federal level, who get clued into information way before the general public, to use that information with foresight and make the smart choices for the betterment of the public?

Or is that too much to ask? Haha

Not any more than asking the governor of a state to quarantine people getting off a plane.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Also, reading today that multiple US federal organizations got briefed back in November that this was going to potentially be an issue and to start planning accordingly, and the reaction was "eh we'll be fine" is peak America

 

[will1066]

Not any more than asking the governor of a state to quarantine people getting off a plane.

Then the problem shifts to lawsuits and infringement on liberties. Rhode Island went as draconian as wanting to keep people out of the state by knocking door to door. Then the threat of lawsuits followed.

This country was built on freedom and liberty, but in times like these, it also is a bit of a disadvantage. We're not a totalitarian society, and we don't accept draconian measures. There shouldn't be a gestapo, but also people shouldn't openly flout restrictions.

 

[will1066]

I think that the world was unprepared. And in the US, people started screaming about it too late. Of course, first they encouraged the acts that they now seek to distance themselves from.

For the record, I also detest identity politics. Unfortunately, they have become mainstream.

No, we shouldn't expect the leadership to have had an air-tight preparedness plan. No one was fully prepared for this. But we should expect better than what's occurring now.

 

[GordonGecko]

Then the problem shifts to lawsuits and infringement on liberties. Rhode Island went as draconian as wanting to keep people out of the state by knocking door to door. Then the threat of lawsuits followed.

This country was built on freedom and liberty, but in times like these, it also is a bit of a disadvantage. We're not a totalitarian society, and we don't accept draconian measures. There shouldn't be a gestapo, but also people shouldn't openly flout restrictions.

Florida has 4 hour backups due to roadblocks on I-95 looking for New York plates:

 

[will1066]

Florida has 4 hour backups due to roadblocks on I-95 looking for New York plates:

Did you see the story of a group of guys from Massachusetts who still wanted to go golfing, so at the Mass-R.I. border they changed to a car with R.I. plates to go to a golf course in R.I.?

The desire to circumvent orders is practically ingrained in our society.

 

[Ola]

I think that the world was unprepared. And in the US, people started screaming about it too late. Of course, first they encouraged the acts that they now seek to distance themselves from.

For the record, I also detest identity politics. Unfortunately, they have become mainstream.

Yeah, but I also think the extent Trump backers are allergic to him getting any kind of criticism also are a bit over the top.

Like Trump hates anything and anybody that stands in his way. He doesn’t hate the climate or our kids future, but he doesn’t want to adopt to it, so he is basically the alone leader in the top 100 biggest countries that totally denies global warming. It’s Chinese hoax. I am sure that he isn’t a racist — but he will use inappropriate language against a judge of a different origin of the judge stand in his way. And so forth and so forth and so forth...

He has without any doubt have taken it further than any other president ever.

And the reason previous Presidents haven’t resorted to those type of strategies, taking short cuts never listening to experts, being extremely disrespectful etc — is because sooner rather than later it will come back to haunt you.

In this case a treat blossomed up, very early — of course — all experts provided very detailed information about its risks (but maybe less what to do about it) and Trump kept waving it away really long. It wasn’t good and the writing was on the wall for him to make these type of mistakes. And many of the mistakes he has made will have costs that isn’t as measureable but still could have a big effect — like racism, lack of respect, mistrust between countries and worsen relationships etc etc etc.

So I just have a bit of a hard time understanding why calling him out for this should be so off the limit.

 

[OverTheCap]

The same NY Times that not two months ago questioned the necessity of travel restrictions? Good to know that they are keeping their eye on the ball.

And of course it was spreading before that. It started to spread the second someone stepped of a plane from China. Or Venice. Or wherever.

I didn't see anyone calling for ANY travel bans at all. If Cuomo wanted to he could have easily imposed a quarantine on ANYONE stepping of a plane. He didn't. No, he CHOOSE not to.

What many public health experts and scientists have been saying, as well as the article, is that travel bans aren't particularly effective in stopping a highly contagious virus in a world where it's easier than ever to travel globally, especially when testing is so limited.

Widespread testing early on, isolating cases, and tracing contacts would have been a better tool to mitigate the spread of virus in the US.

 

[True Blue]

Then the problem shifts to lawsuits and infringement on liberties. Rhode Island went as draconian as wanting to keep people out of the state by knocking door to door. Then the threat of lawsuits followed.

This country was built on freedom and liberty, but in times like these, it also is a bit of a disadvantage. We're not a totalitarian society, and we don't accept draconian measures. There shouldn't be a gestapo, but also people shouldn't openly flout restrictions.

I do not disagree, but it has been done. The governor of Florida placed a mandatory 2 week quarantine on anyone flying in from NY.

The point being is that stating NOW that Trump should have had travel restrictions on most of Europe in the beginning is just pointing the finger. Any local governor could have easily done just as much.

No, we shouldn't expect the leadership to have had an air-tight preparedness plan. No one was fully prepared for this. But we should expect better than what's occurring now.

What is the big negative now? What else should the federal government be doing right now?