Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Fatass]

We as fans can tank McDavid in with the greatest players, but (imo) he won’t unless he leads a club to the Cup.
The greatest players are all great. What separates them though is leading teams to Cups. Not a passenger Cup when older but actually leading their club. Imo McDavid will not include himself with the greatest players unless he accomplish that feat.

 

[Derailed75]

The best players in sports elevate their team mates. If he doesn't win a cup hes not even in the top 5. He may very well be the most talented player ever but not break 5 without a cup

 

[edog37]

I have a genuine question for you from one pens fan (and Pittsburgher it seems) to another. Do you actually believe that Crosby is better than McDavid and will rank higher than him even at the end of
McDavid’s career? Not going to be overly critical of your answer just genuinely curious.

The way that I personally look at it is that through the same point in their careers (first 9 years or 645 games whichever you choose) McDavid is clearly ahead statistically for the overall comparison, prime stretch, peak season and best playoff performances. This holds true for regular stats and era adjusted as well. He also currently at age 27 has more individual hardware than Crosby does in his entire career.

That is impossible to argue against so I’m assuming that for you it comes down to winning the big one and since Crosby has more championships that’s what does it but I could be wrong as I’m only assuming. To that I’d say that for ones playoff performances to be statistically superior to Crosby’s we are looking at a matter of better teams (16 and 17 penguins) coupled with Malkin’s 09 dominance/Talbot heroism in game 7 for the other. Of course Crosby played well in all three playoff runs as well but McDavid isn’t merely playing well here we have the best performance statistically of all time in the playoffs when adjusted this year. This also wouldn’t be enough to tilt it in Sid’s favor anyone in my opinion but yeah. Anyway not trying to be condescending or start an argument just curious what other pens fans seem to think.

To answer your question, yes I do & here’s why. The Cup is the benchmark & always has been. When Mario came up, he had to win a Cup before being compared to Gretzky. Even after the ‘87 Canada Cup. 66 needed his Cup. That’s where the standard exists. Sid had to win a Cup before entering into the tiered GOAT category. But also consider what Sid had to do to get there. He had to beat his nemesis. Ovechkin. Each time they went head to head in the playoffs, the winner of that series went on to win the Cup. That’s legendary right there.

Now, big moments…Sid scored the golden goal against Canada’s biggest rival. Another example of a true legend. He won back to back Conn Smythes. Big moments.

Sid is cumulative. He is excellent at every aspect. Offense, defense, you name it. Earlier in his career, he was weak at faceoffs. Worked on it & became a team leader. Wasn’t a true scorer per se. Worked on it & hit the 50 goal mark. He busts his ass every shift. Even now, plays every shift like he’s trying out for a higher level league (props to Colby Armstrong for that quote). He nearly dragged the Pens into the playoffs this year…at age 36. That’s true greatness.

McDavid is a lot of flash, but he doesn’t do these things. He has tremendous skills, but lacks leadership & accountability. He floats into his own zone & does little to inspire.

So yeah, I do consider the much better player & 4th GOAT.

 

[Coastal Kev]

"anyone can coach defense"

HAHAHAHAHA. I cannot stop laughing. You must hate the Devils so much right?

Grow up kid. Not everything is adrenaline rush.

Yes, I loathe the devils. They in large part brought this garbage style of hockey to the NHL. The habs did it, but somehow didn't go full on borefest.

 

[robes1]

Cup or no cup, McDavid will likely go down as the greatest.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Historical league average G/GP in the NHL playoffs: 2.85

Most adjusted playoff points:
‘24 McDavid: 42 in 25 GP
‘91 Lemieux: 38 in 24 GP
‘09 Malkin: 37 in 24 GP
‘85 Gretzky: 36 in 18 GP
‘20 Kucherov: 35 in 25 GP

Out of curiosity, how far back are you calculating this for? Back to 1980 (the start of the four round era), or have you also looked at some of the best runs from Richard, Beliveau, Howe, Lafleur, etc?

 

[Turin]

Cup or no cup, McDavid will likely go down as the greatest.

There isn't a chance that McDavid goes down as the greatest player of all time if he doesn't win a Cup. He needs to win multiple to have a shot at passing Lemieux or Gretzky in anyones mind.

 

[Video Nasty]

When Mario came up, he had to win a Cup before being compared to Gretzky. Even after the ‘87 Canada Cup. 66 needed his Cup. That’s where the standard exists.

It’s clearly a heavily flawed line of thinking if beating the 27 win/68 point/15 seed Minnesota North Stars after missing 54 games in the regular season caused the hockey world at large to do an about face when it came to Mario.

 

[Turin]

It’s clearly a heavily flawed line of thinking if beating the 27 win/68 point/15 seed Minnesota North Stars after missing 54 games in the regular season caused the hockey world at large to do an about face when it came to Mario.

It wasn't beating the North Stars, it was beating the Devils, Caps, Bruins and then the North Stars. It wasn't for nothing either, the Pens won those two Cups as pretty mediocre regular season teams, especially defensively they stunk. After year 2 of Scotty Bowman they were one of the best defensive teams in the league and the best offense by far and they choked in the 2nd round and Bowman was run out of town by the players. If the Pens don't win those Cups Lemieux is looked at, rightfully, as a guy who despite the talent is hard to build a winning team around.

 

[WalterLundy]

Out of curiosity, how far back are you calculating this for? Back to 1980 (the start of the four round era), or have you also looked at some of the best runs from Richard, Beliveau, Howe, Lafleur, etc?

Yes actually. I did since 1980 but I can do more. I’m actually curious about those myself.

 

[Video Nasty]

It wasn't beating the North Stars, it was beating the Devils, Caps, Bruins and then the North Stars.

Yeah, other than the Bruins, it was an extremely easy path, done during a time where only 5 teams in the league missed the playoffs. Combined point percentage of .513 versus .657 the Oilers played against. Pittsburgh at .550 was higher than three of them. Oilers at .634 were lower than three of theirs.

 

[GreatGonzo]

To answer your question, yes I do & here’s why. The Cup is the benchmark & always has been. When Mario came up, he had to win a Cup before being compared to Gretzky. Even after the ‘87 Canada Cup. 66 needed his Cup. That’s where the standard exists. Sid had to win a Cup before entering into the tiered GOAT category. But also consider what Sid had to do to get there. He had to beat his nemesis. Ovechkin. Each time they went head to head in the playoffs, the winner of that series went on to win the Cup. That’s legendary right there.

Now, big moments…Sid scored the golden goal against Canada’s biggest rival. Another example of a true legend. He won back to back Conn Smythes. Big moments.

Sid is cumulative. He is excellent at every aspect. Offense, defense, you name it. Earlier in his career, he was weak at faceoffs. Worked on it & became a team leader. Wasn’t a true scorer per se. Worked on it & hit the 50 goal mark. He busts his ass every shift. Even now, plays every shift like he’s trying out for a higher level league (props to Colby Armstrong for that quote). He nearly dragged the Pens into the playoffs this year…at age 36. That’s true greatness.

McDavid is a lot of flash, but he doesn’t do these things. He has tremendous skills, but lacks leadership & accountability. He floats into his own zone & does little to inspire.

So yeah, I do consider the much better player & 4th GOAT.

What a moronic take.

So basically, Crosby is the perfect player who excels on both ends(he doesn’t), works harder than McDavid, is a better leader than McDavid, and overall is just better….

Then you sum up McDavid as this all flash, no hockey sense, zero leadership having player. It’s hilarious. A typical “hater” take full of all the mental gymnastics.

Crosbys 2016 smythe is possibly one of the weakest in history. The irony is if McDavid put up 19 points in 24 games and was a negative player…and STILL won, you would be the first to criticize him…..but because it’s Crosby all is forgiven. Maybe look at the hypocrisy of your opinions before posting.

McDavid has done things that Crosby could never do. And the only reason why Crosby has more international and playoff success is purely because he played on much better and more well balanced teams. It’s that simple.

 

[Turin]

Yeah, other than the Bruins, it was an extremely easy path, done during a time where only 5 teams in the league missed the playoffs. Combined point percentage of .513 versus .657 the Oilers played against. Pittsburgh at .550 was higher than three of them. Oilers at .634 were lower than three of theirs.

Sure, then all the more why winning a Cup was important.

 

[MessierThanThou]

Out of curiosity, how far back are you calculating this for? Back to 1980 (the start of the four round era), or have you also looked at some of the best runs from Richard, Beliveau, Howe, Lafleur, etc?

They didn't start doing 16-team playoff tournaments until 1979-80, so it wouldn't really be fair to compare those totals since those names you mentioned weren't playing enough playoff games in their primes to reach those numbers.

I think something that gets conveniently ignored a lot around here, especially when trying to widen the gap between Gretz and Lemieux, is the fact that when the Soviets and Czechslovakians were dominating international tournaments the NHL wasn't truly "best on best" until the Iron Curtain fell. Then we started seeing an influx of Russian and Czecho-Slovak players, which made the league far more competitive than it had ever been.

Also, the NHL during the existence of the WHA should be considered a weaker league because you had a lot of talent spread across both leagues. Even if the NHL was superior, the WHA was far more than another AHL. You had elite players like Hull (arguably a top 5 player in the NHL when he joined the WHA), Cheevers, and even prime Bernie Parent all playing at least a season in the WHA.

Then we go back to the Original Six days, where who knows how many potentially legendary players were denied opportunities! Johnny Bower didn't even become a starter until what, his mid-30s? On the other hand, some people like to argue that each O6 Team was a super-squad made up of the best players of the era. Either could be true.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

They didn't start doing 16-team playoff tournaments until 1979-80, so it wouldn't really be fair to compare those totals since those names you mentioned weren't playing enough playoff games in their primes to reach those numbers.

I think something that gets conveniently ignored a lot around here, especially when trying to widen the gap between Gretz and Lemieux, is the fact that when the Soviets and Czechslovakians were dominating international tournaments the NHL wasn't truly "best on best" until the Iron Curtain fell. Then we started seeing an influx of Russian and Czecho-Slovak players, which made the league far more competitive than it had ever been.

Also, the NHL era during the existence of the WHA should be considered a weaker league because you had a lot of talent spread across both leagues, even if the NHL was superior, the WHA was not a minor league. You had elite players like Hull (arguably a top 5 player in the NHL when he joined the WHA), Cheevers, and even prime Bernie Parent all playing at least a season in the WHA.

Then we go back to the Original Six days, where who knows how many potentially legendary players were denied opportunities! Johnny Bower didn't even become a starter until what, his mid-30s? On the other hand, some people like to argue that each O6 Team was a super-squad made up of the best players of the era. Either could be true.

Yes, agreed. There would have to be some type of adjustment based on the number of rounds. (So a 20+ point playoff run from Gordie Howe or Stan Mikita, during the Original Six era, is roughly equivalent to a 40 point playoff run today).

 

[Game 7 Meltdown]

Gretz had to go to LA to increase exposure to the game, where does McDavid go?

Calgary.

 

[braunm]

I believe that it might be possible for McDavid to end up #2 all time, if he can win a Cup and have great stats in his 30s. I believe that McDavid is the most skilled player ever, Lemieux the most talented ever and Gretzky the greatest ever.

 

[Video Nasty]

If he’s at full strength after having surgery for the abdominal injury he had all season, I think he sweeps the Hart, Lindsay, Art Ross (put me down for 160 points), Rocket (put me down for 70 goals), puts up another 40 point playoff run, nabs a second Conn Smythe, and leads the Oilers to the Cup.

 

[plusandminus]

I think it will be very interesting to see McDavid in upcoming international tournaments where the best players are available. That is something I have greatly missed. How outstanding will he look? Very interesting to see him in a new environment that would be a strong contender even without him on the team.

Would leading Canada to win international tournaments help his case?
-
Regarding Stanley cup, I find it interesting that Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Howe won all their cups at fairly "young" ages.
Gretzky 23, 24, 26, 27
Lemieux 25, 26
Orr 21, 23
Howe 21, 23, 25, 26 (none more)
That is 11 Stanley Cups by age 26 and all 12 by age 27. McDavid will be 28 next season.
I am not making any argument here, and the above is not necessarily an indicator of something. Unless injuries will affect him considerably, McDavid by himself will obviously be good enough to win Stanley Cups in the future.

Personally, I think winning the SC is mainly a team effort. You could put McDavid on any Stanley Cup winning team, and he very likely would have been one of the main contributors on that team.
Guys like Mike Keane, Mark Recchi, Joe Nieuwendyk and Claude Lemieux won it with three teams. Ray Bourque almost did not win it, and when he won it he was past his prime. Same with Hasek,

 

[crowfish]

If he’s at full strength after having surgery for the abdominal injury he had all season, I think he sweeps the Hart, Lindsay, Art Ross (put me down for 160 points), Rocket (put me down for 70 goals), puts up another 40 point playoff run, nabs a second Conn Smythe, and leads the Oilers to the Cup.

Man I hope you are right, but I am sort of worried that we won't see McDavid go 100% effort in the regular season anymore until he get's his Cup. I won't be surprised if he just coasts his way to a 50+90 type season. 2022 McDavid was flying down the ice each game, but that is a much riskier style for injuries. My guess is we will see him play that safe slower game like in 2023, but with a few more rushes and powerplay snipes.

 

[TheSuperElite]

An absolutely MONSTROUS season from McDavid considering what he was playing through. Beyond blessed to watch this fella wear the orange and blue every single night. Nothing beats being an Oilers fan.

 

[HeadLiceHatty]

An absolutely MONSTROUS season from McDavid considering what he was playing through. Beyond blessed to watch this fella wear the orange and blue every single night. Nothing beats being an Oilers fan.

Theres a lot of things that beat being an Oilers fan, but it surely isn't being a Flyers fan, let the good times roll.

 

[TheSuperElite]

Theres a lot of things that beat being an Oilers fan, but it surely isn't being a Flyers fan, let the good times roll.

Nah, nothing delivers more entertainment value than watching McDavid play for your team.

 

[HeadLiceHatty]

Nah, nothing delivers more entertainment value than watching McDavid play for your team.

Nah, I'd rather see my team hoist cups, which is something we don't do in Philly, to each their own. Lucky for you guys to have Gretzky and McDavid, enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[statswatcher]

he'll never be better than valeri kharlamov.