Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[WaW]

I don’t think you could put mcdavid higher than Lemieux because todays star players are a lot more protected then in lemieux’s era.

Goaltending in Lemieux's era was a complete and utter joke.

The improvement in modern day goaltending vs the 80s/early 90s has-outscaled any other position in sports.

Like watch any 80s highlight videos. The amount of goals that were just players sliding the puck along the ice while goalies would just stand there and "kick" at the puck, is ludicrous.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Goaltending in Lemieux's era was a complete and utter joke.

Yes, Lemieux literally played in the stone ages.

 

[umma gumma]

Goaltending in Lemieux's era was a complete and utter joke.

The improvement in modern day goaltending vs the 80s/early 90s has-outscaled any other position in sports.

Like watch any 80s highlight videos. The amount of goals that were just players sliding the puck along the ice while goalies would just stand there and "kick" at the puck, is ludicrous.

So how was the goaltending in 2000-01 when he scored 35 goals in 43 games as a broken down old man? Yeah, Brodeur, Roy, Hasek, Joseph, Belfour, complete and utter jokes they are.

 

[WaW]

So how was the goaltending in 2000-01 when he scored 35 goals in 43 games as a broken down old man? Yeah, Brodeur, Roy, Hasek, Joseph, Belfour, complete and utter jokes they are.

It's cute that you think Lemieux's *checks notes* 8th or 9th best statistical PPG season (the others were all 80s and 90s) is relevant to a conversation about how bad 80s and early 90s goaltending was.

 

[umma gumma]

It's cute that you think Lemieux's *checks notes* 8th or 9th best statistical PPG season (the others were all 80s and 90s) is relevant to a conversation about how bad 80s and early 90s goaltending was.

Ah to be young and naive again. It cute that you can't figure out that era Lemieux played in didn't matter. He torched goalies from the 80s, 90s, and 00, several of them in the HoF.

 

[WaW]

Ah to be young and naive again. It cute that you can't figure out that era Lemieux played in didn't matter. He torched goalies from the 80s, 90s, and 00, several of them in the HoF.

Speaking of naivety, you may want to have a look in the mirror...McDavid has been torching the entire league for 9 years now, in an era where goaltending advancement and sports science has scaled multiple times since the 80s.

I dont think you understand what modern day players would do if they entered a hypothetical time machine and were dropped into the 80s game.

 

[umma gumma]

Speaking of naivety, you may want to have a look in the mirror...McDavid has been torching the entire league for 9 years now, in an era where goaltending advancement and sports science has scaled multiple times since the 80s.

I dont think you understand what modern day players would do if they entered a hypothetical time machine and were dropped into the 80s game.

Lance Stroll and his Aston Martin would whoop Fangio and his Mercedes but that proves absolutely nothing. Must be nice spending your day in the clouds in fantasy land. Where will you take your time machine to next? Maybe to the cretaceous period?

 

[tabness]

Lance Stroll and his Aston Martin would whoop Fangio and his Mercedes but that proves absolutely nothing. Must be nice spending your day in the clouds in fantasy land. Where will you take your time machine to next? Maybe to the cretaceous period?

Growing up in the nineties I never heard the "time machine" hypothetical in any hockey talk, it just seems so absurd to even think about it lol

I blame two things:

• general nerdization of society to be way more into science fiction crap like time machines (along with stats and trying to quantify everything in hockey and then compare)
• the Hockey News Top 50 list that got the TV special in the late nineties which really seemed to have started people off on taking way too seriously the impossibility of ranking players across eras (before it was like you compared contemporaries mostly)

 

[GhostfaceWu]

It's just salty pens fans because McDavid is making Crosby look like a regular superstar in comparison.

 

[wetcoast]

Ok. What's the statistical record for the on ice impact of Howe or Orr that doesn't have to do with offense?

There is his ESGF/ESGA and R-on and R-off ratios for Orr for his entire career and partial ones for Howe that measure their impact in tilting the ice.

The statical evidence for Orr is very complete and convincing and his case rest on that historically insane peak and impact.

Howe's case is a little different just in his insane longevity and prime backed with a really high peak.

 

[MuckOG]

It's just salty pens fans because McDavid is making Crosby look like a regular superstar in comparison.

A "regular" superstar who captained his team to 3 Stanley Cups. But if you prefer players with better regular season stats, more power to you.

 

[MessierThanThou]

Goaltending in Lemieux's era was a complete and utter joke.

The improvement in modern day goaltending vs the 80s/early 90s has-outscaled any other position in sports.

Like watch any 80s highlight videos. The amount of goals that were just players sliding the puck along the ice while goalies would just stand there and "kick" at the puck, is ludicrous.

When Gretzky was the undisputed best player in the league, yes, goaltending was a complete and utter joke. One of the best goalies of the era was on his own team!

After Lemieux took over that mantle un 1988, however, and continued being the best player in the league for every season he was healthy until 1996-97, he was facing Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek, and Martin Brodeur, the three best goalies in NHL history...at their peaks. Not to mention regularly facing guys like Cujo, Beezer, Richter, and Kolzig.

Oh, and remember when he came back in 2000 after four seasons off, in the middle of the dead puck era no less...and he not only led the NHL in points-per-game but was scoring at a level unseen since the mid-90s?

Furthermore, Lemieux was consistently the best player in the league after the iron curtain fell and the best Russian and Czecho-Slovak players joined the league, meaning for the first time in decades the NHL actually was best on best. And Lemieux was the best of them all.

Gretzky had a higher peak and level of dominance, but I truly do believe Lemieux was better, especially when you start looking at adjusted stats.

Connor isn't there yet, but he's better than Crosby. I know scoring isn't everything, but Sid never led the Pens in scoring during any of the three Cup wins. Malkin was flat-out better in the first win, was neck-and-neck with Sid in the third win, and Kessel scored more in the second win. Malkin was a bigger contributor to the Cup wins than Draisaitl has been in these playoffs. If the Oilers went all the way last year or in 2017, that might be a different story.

 

[Canovin]

A "regular" superstar who captained his team to 3 Stanley Cups. But if you prefer players with better regular season stats, more power to you.

Not really an insult but more of a Jagr type player than a true generational talent like the big 4

 

[Hockey Outsider]

There is his ESGF/ESGA and R-on and R-off ratios for Orr for his entire career and partial ones for Howe that measure their impact in tilting the ice.

The statical evidence for Orr is very complete and convincing and his case rest on that historically insane peak and impact.

Howe's case is a little different just in his insane longevity and prime backed with a really high peak.

By this metric (which is important, but imperfect), Orr is in a class of his own. No other player in history "tilted the ice" to the same extent.

Prime vs prime, Gretzky and Howe are remarkably close. Gretzky is obviously the better scorer, but the data suggests that, in terms of impact on their respective teams goal differentials, Howe is quite close to #99. In fact, this is probably unfair to Howe, since we have data for all of Gretzky's career, but we're missing some of Howe's best years (including four of his six Art Ross trophies).

Lemieux's impact, although objectively very good, is weaker than the other three. Still, he's pretty clearly the best powerplay producer (on a per-game basis) in NHL history, and the goal differential data is only looking at even-strength situations.

(I would need to check the numbers for McDavid but, from what I recall, he's roughly on par with Lemieux's impact - ES only).

 

[wetcoast]

By this metric (which is important, but imperfect), Orr is in a class of his own. No other player in history "tilted the ice" to the same extent.

Prime vs prime, Gretzky and Howe are remarkably close. Gretzky is obviously the better scorer, but the data suggests that, in terms of impact on their respective teams goal differentials, Howe is quite close to #99. In fact, this is probably unfair to Howe, since we have data for all of Gretzky's career, but we're missing some of Howe's best years (including four of his six Art Ross trophies).

Lemieux's impact, although objectively very good, is weaker than the other three. Still, he's pretty clearly the best powerplay producer (on a per-game basis) in NHL history, and the goal differential data is only looking at even-strength situations.

(I would need to check the numbers for McDavid but, from what I recall, he's roughly on par with Lemieux's impact - ES only).

Like you said at the beginning this metric is important but imperfect but when one combines this metric along with all the other metrics one can and should look at a clear picture emerges fo all players to give us a pretty solid basis on how to rank players all time.

Almost always people that push back really hard against any of the top players do so with either an agenda or selective and incomplete metrics and usually it's both.

As for the OP, it's a fair question and time will tell but the last several seasons McDavid has really exploded.

 

[Coffey]

But if you prefer players with better regular season stats, more power to you.

Playoff stats too.

 

[MuckOG]

Playoff stats too.

Their playoff stats are pretty close, except for 1 very important one. Crosby has 3 Cups.

 

[Coffey]

Crosby has 3 Cups.

And Henri Richard has 11. Who gives a f*** when comparing individuals lmao

 

[MuckOG]

And Henri Richard has 11. Who gives a f*** when comparing individuals lmao

Sorry, but Cups matter when it comes to historical legacy and being measured against the best of all time.

Kind of a weird position that Oiler fans are taking here. Do they not think McDavid will win at least 1 Cup and make this all moot anyways?

 

[Coffey]

Sorry, but Cups matter when it comes to historical legacy and being measured against the best of all time.

Unfortunate that Chiarelli and Holland might sully the legacy of 97 then.
What a terrible way to analyze greatness.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Sorry, but Cups matter when it comes to historical legacy and being measured against the best of all time.

Kind of a weird position that Oiler fans are taking here. Do they not think McDavid will win at least 1 Cup and make this all moot anyways?

As an individual crosbys done nothing comparable to this in the playoffs. Hell, he never once lead his team in points in any of their cup runs. We value different things it seems. I look at ability when ranking players and you and others go to team achievements. It is what it is.

 

[MuckOG]

As an individual crosbys done nothing comparable to this in the playoffs. Hell, he never once lead his team in points in any of their cup runs

McDavid is a better offensive player than Crosby was, but peak Crosby had a better all-around game.

 

[Coffey]

McDavid is a better offensive player than Crosby was, but peak Crosby had a better all-around game.

Are you saying that McDavid still doesn't play a 200 foot game?

 

[MuckOG]

Are you saying that McDavid still doesn't play a 200 foot game?

Not at the level that Crosby did.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Are you saying that McDavid still doesn't play a 200 foot game?

Last night mcdavid was a defensive beast. There is no holes and arguments anymore other than cups. Which was a horrible one to begin with