Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Sol]

This doesn't make any sense. If everybody has the same access to advantages/resources that have made players better, why would dominance in this era be any more impressive than 20 years ago? The playing field today is just as even as it was in the past.. And as far as talent pools are concerned, you must not be aware of how many superstars existed in the 90s.


You just accidentally described Bobby Orr

The league wasn't nearly as competitive back in the day and sports medicine was not even advanced at all.

The gap between the best players in the league back then vs your average player was galactic. Now almost all the players in the NHL now are talented.

 

[KCC]

Despite missing much of his prime due to illness, Mario literally had the higher career PPG, until he came out of retirement in his forties (keep in mind Gretzky was limited to 9 goals over 82 games when he was several years younger). Mario was the more dominant for sure, but we can concede Gretzky did play more games (and thus accumulated more total points), due to Mario's cancer and back problems.

Oh yeah, real dominant. Of Mario’s 1723 points, a whopping 701 of those were on the pp. of Gretzky’s 2857 points, only 890 were on the pp. Wayne is where he is because he was an absolute beast at even strength. Mario was injured and sick. We all know he couldn’t stay healthy. But for all the talk about how dominant he was, the pp is what allowed him to do a bulk of his damage. And most people don’t realize this.

To break it down further. 40% of Lemieux’s points were on the pp. Gretzky for how many ridiculous amount of points he racked up, only 31% was on the pp. Even Mcdavid for all the talk about how good he is on the pp is nowhere close to being on pace. He’s clipping at only at 33% currently. Crosby is at 36% and that’s because the league made all those rule changes after the lock out so he feasted. Mario was the definition of living on the pp. No question.

 

[blundluntman]

The league wasn't nearly as competitive back in the day and sports medicine was not even advanced at all.

The gap between the best players in the league back then vs your average player was galactic. Now almost all the players in the NHL now are talented.

Sounds like I was right about you not being aware of the talent pool that existed in the 90s; just go through the list of HoF players Mario played against and tell me he had less top end competition.

And like I said, everybody has access to sports medicine, what does that have to do with dominance against peers?

 

[stony]

Despite missing much of his prime due to illness, Mario literally had the higher career PPG, until he came out of retirement in his forties (keep in mind Gretzky was limited to 9 goals over 82 games when he was several years younger).

"Lemieux had initially retired after the 1996-97 season, and he was welcomed into the Hockey Hall of Fame in ‘97. However, when he chose to return to action, he was 35 years old." https://thehockeynews.com/news/thn-...con Mario Lemieux,and the industry in general.

It's cringey to suggest that McDavid would be the best. No cups and doesn't know how to defend. Crosby is the overall best player of all time hands down. 3 cups and he was robbed from his best seasons due to injury. Probably 2-3 more art rosses and cups if he wasn't injured.

You just accidentally described Bobby Orr

The bolded needs to be acknowledged. Injuries are a consideration, unfortunately, and so too were they for Gretzky: while he was largely injury free for his peak, his decline was definitely hastened by the Suter check.

 

[WalterLundy]

The league wasn't nearly as competitive back in the day and sports medicine was not even advanced at all.

The gap between the best players in the league back then vs your average player was galactic. Now almost all the players in the NHL now are talented.

1980-1988 league averages:
Even strength: 2.77
Power play: 0.93
Short handed: 0.13

2016-2024 league averages:
Even strength: 2.27
Power play: 0.60
Short handed: 0.08

Gretzky 80-88 (oilers years, first 9 seasons) adjusted to the last 9 years of hockey:

696 GP: 445 G, 825 A, 1270 P (1.83)

Based on the numbers a Gretzky (for example) playing in todays game would dominate to a comical degree. He would have 67 more goals than the next closest player in the 2016 to 2024 span (Ovechkin), 178 more assists than the next closest (McDavid) and 288 more points than the next closest (McDavid).

For points per game he is at an adjusted 1.83 in todays game. 150 points per 82 games. McDavid is the next closest at 1.52 or 125 points per 82 games. Sure his gaps were bigger in the 80s but this is still quite a “galactic” gap. The gap between adjusted Gretzky and McDavid per game is virtually the same as the gap between McDavid and Draisaitl (1.52 to 1.23) which is massive. And this is with McDavid being a top 4 talent ever! It wasn’t the league sucking. Gretzky (for example) was just that much better than anyone that ever played.

 

[glenngineer]

While we all know the stat of Gretzky having more assists than anyone has points, I did a little number crunching a couple of weeks ago.

Gretzky had 11 straight seasons of 100 or more assists. Take those 11 seasons without any goals, total them up. There are only 33 or 34 players who have more points in their careers than those 11 seasons of only assists.

That’s insane to me. No offense to McDavid but he’s never going to approach anything remotely close to the records that Gretzky or even Lemieux put up.

 

[blundluntman]

While we all know the stat of Gretzky having more assists than anyone has points, I did a little number crunching a couple of weeks ago.

Gretzky had 11 straight seasons of 100 or more assists. Take those 11 seasons without any goals, total them up. There are only 33 or 34 players who have more points in their careers than those 11 seasons of only assists.

That’s insane to me. No offense to McDavid but he’s never going to approach anything remotely close to the records that Gretzky or even Lemieux put up.

I remember the first time I looked up his stats when I was young. I was like “ this guy was pretty damn amazing, his numbers aren’t as crazy as I thought but he’s still better than every forward besides Mario” a few seconds later I realized I was looking at his assists, not his point totals lol

 

[Juniorhockeyguru]

It's much more impressive what McDavid is doing, better athlete as well.

While we all know the stat of Gretzky having more assists than anyone has points, I did a little number crunching a couple of weeks ago.

Gretzky had 11 straight seasons of 100 or more assists. Take those 11 seasons without any goals, total them up. There are only 33 or 34 players who have more points in their careers than those 11 seasons of only assists.

That’s insane to me. No offense to McDavid but he’s never going to approach anything remotely close to the records that Gretzky or even Lemieux put up.

If he doesn't, it's because of goaltending. There's no Jeff Reese, Alan Bester, Darren Pang, John Garrett.

 

[Beukeboom]

It's much more impressive what McDavid is doing, better athlete as well.


If he doesn't, it's because of goaltending. There's no Jeff Reese, Alan Bester, Darren Pang, John Garrett.

Is it because of goaltending he's been behind Kucherov x2, Draisaitl and Mackinnon etc as well? Because that is a much bigger issue than not scoring 200+ points if you want to go "there"

 

[Voight]

Nice insertion of a biased narrative there eh and totally skipped over that Crosby is far and away the best player of his era.

No he isn't, Ovechkin exists.

 

[Voight]

Imho Crosby is the best of all time. Lemieux second best and Gretzky 3rd best. McDavid maybe 12th.

I'll have what hes having.

 

[AZviaNJ]

Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux and Orr all changed the game.

Can McDavid break knock one of those players from the NHL Mt Rushmore? I doubt it.

 

[wetcoast]

No he isn't, Ovechkin exists.

Yes he does but most people have Crosby as the best player post lockout and there is the evidence to back it up, conatrairans and absolute fanbois aside.

 

[norrisnick]

Yes he does but most people have Crosby as the best player post lockout and there is the evidence to back it up, conatrairans and absolute fanbois aside.

The main issue is likely with "far and away". AINEC is not applicable in this situation.

 

[wetcoast]

The main issue is likely with "far and away". AINEC is not applicable in this situation.

Okay I'll rephrase this by using an example that somelese brought up in another thread when things when close.

If a person has $500 dollars they have more than say the guy with $490 bucks but they are very close.

Put another way if one asks a cross section of average hockey fans or even hockey experts a clear choice will be given in favour of Crosby and like I stated there is a lot of evidence to assert that position and no the voting wouldn't be close (thus my use of "far and away, which would be the number holding the opinion not that the separation would be by leaps and bounds).

 

[M4lk1n71]

Yes he does but most people have Crosby as the best player post lockout and there is the evidence to back it up, conatrairans and absolute fanbois aside.

Finally someone who can look at things objectively... Although I think that Crosby is the best player of all time, not just post lockout.

 

[Beukeboom]

Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux and Orr all changed the game.

Can McDavid break knock one of those players from the NHL Mt Rushmore? I doubt it.

To be fair, how did Lemieux change the game (not saying he doesn't belong among the top 4)? Also this might be harder to do over time, but it's not unlikely a whole new generation is focusing on blistering speed due to McDavid.

 

[Randyne]

or even hockey experts

Sure they give him Lady Bing for chopping fingers, cracking nuts from behind and yelling like a little girl. Without media hype (for being a Canadian) and Malkin's huge help (up to 50%) Sid is nowhere near Ovechkin, who has one of the most impressive peak of all time.
Those hockey experts ruined Ovechkin's peak with 3 Rockets+3 Harts+3 Rosses+3 Lindsays in a row to make Sid shine, they even kicked Malkin out of top100 because of that. If Ovechkin breaks unbreakable record, crybaby's hype must go with time.

 

[cowboy82nd]

Finally someone who can look at things objectively... Although I think that Crosby is the best player of all time, not just post lockout.

Is he your cousin or something? Great player, but NOT the best of all time.

To be fair, how did Lemieux change the game (not saying he doesn't belong among the top 4)? Also this might be harder to do over time, but it's not unlikely a whole new generation is focusing on blistering speed due to McDavid.

People were focusing on speed before McDavid.

 

[Voight]

Yes he does but most people have Crosby as the best player post lockout and there is the evidence to back it up, conatrairans and absolute fanbois aside.

Good for them, hes still not the best player far and away post lockout. Ovechkin has just as much as a case as he does.

 

[norrisnick]

Okay I'll rephrase this by using an example that somelese brought up in another thread when things when close.

If a person has $500 dollars they have more than say the guy with $490 bucks but they are very close.

Put another way if one asks a cross section of average hockey fans or even hockey experts a clear choice will be given in favour of Crosby and like I stated there is a lot of evidence to assert that position and no the voting wouldn't be close (thus my use of "far and away, which would be the number holding the opinion not that the separation would be by leaps and bounds).

I put very little stock in public opinion. It's disingenuous as a MFer. Public opinion will tell you that the best three season stretch by either player is a run where the player in question played less than half the games. It's an opinion based on make believe.

 

[CN8]

Lol you have no idea what you're talking about. Fleury's best playoff performance was actually the year before when they lost. The Penguins playing the defensive structure ingrained in them by Therrien smothered the Red Wings offense and allowed almost no great chances the last two games. Or are we supposed to give Fleury credit for sliding out of position in the final minute of game 6 while his defenseman makes multiple saves behind him? Like Fleury was good in that series but he was certainly not the primary reason they won. The Penguins skaters outplayed those on Detroit.


No one puts up points like him when the game is out of hand. 97 is invisible in the first period and after Florida gives up he piles on the points.

Well then let’s praise him for that
What a captain. As soon as they’re up 2 people are calling the game in defeat

 

[CN8]

Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux and Orr all changed the game.

Can McDavid break knock one of those players from the NHL Mt Rushmore? I doubt it.

Especially without a cup
It’s just a reality
Someone brought up the other day a “big 6” and I think that’s the most likely my head sees this ending

 

[norrisnick]

Especially without a cup
It’s just a reality
Someone brought up the other day a “big 6” and I think that’s the most likely my head sees this ending

Big 6 makes even less sense than Big 4.

It'd be more like a Great 1 (99)
a Towering 2 (9 and 4)
and a Thrilling 3 (66, 97, 87)...

 

[CN8]

Big 6 makes even less sense than Big 4.

It'd be more like a Great 1 (99)
a Towering 2 (9 and 4)
and a Thrilling 3 (66, 97, 87)...

Actually that’s pretty much exactly how I’d break it down
I’d probably have 9 and 66 switched but that’s it