Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Flying Dego]

He’s honestly the most gifted player to ever play.

He’ll never touch Gretzky’s records but in terms of just pure hockey ability he has a very good case as being the most talented player ever.

It’ll be a “Big 5“ by the time his career is done.

I think he's the inside track to #5 all time. Can he be #4? It's possible if his individual accolades turn into multi cup dynasty. But regardless he needs a cup to hold weight in a "all time" conversation. Will he win? I'm pretty sure he will but that is priority.

As for being the most gifted. He's damn near the top in that regard. But there is no way as someone who watched Mario could give McD that title.

Never has the game had a 6'6 freak that could skate and dangle like him. As far as gifted goes he's the pinnacle.

 

[Dempsey]

He's not better than Orr and he's not better than Mario, but he may be able to surpass them when you take longevity into consideration. Then you have to take into account things like Stanley Cups, and if he doesn't get one then that will only add to the debate.

 

[Tanknation]

Don't we have enough McDavid ia so good threads already. Yea we all get it.

 

[gotcha90]

Through their age 26 seasons, I think they're pretty comparable when you take into account league scoring and strength of competition (aka having to contend with prime Ovi and Malkin for trophies).

Love Crosby, but this is downplaying McDavid's accomplishments. At age 26, McDavid will have the same amount of Art Ross's as Ovi, Malkin, & Crosby's careers combined. Even if Crosby got a re-roll on health, league scoring, and competition, McDavid's career is likely the max Crosby would have achieved by age 26.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Love Crosby, but this is downplaying McDavid's accomplishments. At age 26, McDavid will have the same amount of Art Ross's as Ovi, Malkin, & Crosby's careers combined. Even if Crosby got a re-roll on health, league scoring, and competition, McDavid's career is likely the max Crosby would have achieved by age 26.

McDavid has never had anyone on par with Ovi and Malkin in his class. Those 3 guys had to contend with each other for those trophies, McDavid has less competition for his awards.

Here were the top producers in McDavid's Art Ross wins:

2016-2017: McDavid (100 points), Crosby (89 points), Kane (89 points)
2017-2018: McDavid (108 points), Giroux (102 points), Kucherov (100 points)
2020-2021: McDavid (105 points), Draisaitl (84 points), Marchand (69 points)
2021-2022: McDavid (122 points), Gaudreau (115 points), Huberdeau (115 points)

None of those guys even remotely compare to prime Malkin and Ovi. No one in the current NHL beyond McDavid is on par with prime Ovi and Malkin IMO.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

McDavid has never had anyone on par with Ovi and Malkin in his class. Those 3 guys had to contend with each other for those trophies, McDavid has less competition for his awards.

Here were the top producers in McDavid's Art Ross wins:

2016-2017: McDavid (100 points), Crosby (89 points), Kane (89 points)
2017-2018: McDavid (108 points), Giroux (102 points), Kucherov (100 points)
2020-2021: McDavid (105 points), Draisaitl (84 points), Marchand (69 points)
2021-2022: McDavid (122 points), Gaudreau (115 points), Huberdeau (115 points)

None of those guys even remotely compare to prime Malkin and Ovi. No one in the current NHL beyond McDavid is on par with prime Ovi and Malkin IMO.

Argument would hold up way better if he didn’t lose an art Ross to Jamie Benn.

people still arguing Crosby over Mcdavid are silly and/or overvalue team accomplishments.I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. There is no era /time period/universe where a PRIME Mcdavid loses an Art Ross to Jamie Freaking Benn

 

[Empoleon8771]

Argument would hold up way better if he didn’t lose an art Ross to Jamie Benn

I think arguing Crosby vs McDavid at this point is pointless because we've seen Crosby's decline as well as his peak, while we haven't seen McDavid's decline yet. Through their age 26 seasons, I think they're pretty comparable when you take into account league scoring and strength of competition (aka having to contend with prime Ovi and Malkin for trophies). But Crosby took a noticeable step back after his age 26 season, which McDavid just hasn't played long enough yet to see if he'll have a similar regression. I think McDavid just has to maintain his current level for longer to end up clearly above Crosby for the long run.

Wow, it's almost like I addressed that.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Wow, it's almost like I addressed that.

And how is that an argument in Crosbys favor? A relatively early decline

 

[Empoleon8771]

And how is that an argument in Crosbys favor lmao?

Did you read my original post? Serious question.

I think I gave a completely reasonable take in my original post. I think you should re-read it.

In case you need it, I'll repost it here:

I think arguing Crosby vs McDavid at this point is pointless because we've seen Crosby's decline as well as his peak, while we haven't seen McDavid's decline yet. Through their age 26 seasons, I think they're pretty comparable when you take into account league scoring and strength of competition (aka having to contend with prime Ovi and Malkin for trophies). But Crosby took a noticeable step back after his age 26 season, which McDavid just hasn't played long enough yet to see if he'll have a similar regression. I think McDavid just has to maintain his current level for longer to end up clearly above Crosby for the long run.

 

[BlueSeal]

I didn’t exist during the Howe era, but I find that anybody who played in the 50’s are nowhere near the fitness and skill level of todays game. Extrapolating what he would’ve done today is just unreasonable given the multitude of factors.

Without those players you don’t get these players and maybe even this league we got today. The next generation is -supposed- to be better than the last, that’s damn near a rule.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Did you read my original post? Serious question.

I think I gave a completely reasonable take in my original post. I think you should re-read it.

It’s fair. I was reading your post with the totality of the thread in mind.

Im also assuming Mcdavids decline won’t be as steep. But just up to this point Yes I say it’s fair to say they’re comparables. Just caught the tail end of the conversation I apologize

 

[Michoulicious]

There, I said it.

The big 4 has been mythologized and deified but it’s been fine since no player has made a compelling argument to question the sanctity of it until now.

Crosby made an argument for 5th best of all-time but even without losing those three seasons of his prime, I don’t think he was ever a serious threat to Howe/Orr/Super Mario.

McDavid is peaking higher than Howe right now. He’s simply a better player and I’m done pretending that he’s not. (Insert Joker meme).

Howe has legendary longevity but Connor has been very healthy and shows no signs of slowing down. Even if he doesn’t match Howes’ longevity (who can) I value the peak more.

Also, far be it for me to discredit the OG’s, we simply have to factor into the equation that Howe played in a 6 team league against almost exclusively Canadians. We simply have to acknowledge how much more competition McDavid has. He’s being trailed in the scoring race by a German, Russian, and Czech. That simply didn’t happen in Howes’ day.

Connor isn’t nor will he peak higher than Mario or #4 but neither player reached even 1000 games.

If McDavid wins 7-8 scoring titles and 5-6 MVP’s and plays 1400 games I think you have to put him number #2 all-time.

Either way, it’s incredible what we are witnessing right now.

Thoughts? Will McDavid be #2 of all-time when the dust settles?

Have you ever heard of Mario Lemieux and Bobby Orr?

They were pretty good.

Top 3 is set in stone for me.

 

[Straight Fire]

I think factoring in things like longevity and health he may get to #2. I'm interested if he's truly peaking. Everything that I've seen says he's pushing himself harder and more. The shootout at the AS game was impressive to me in that he was demonstrating superior shooting skill, which clearly he wanted to do. That desire intrigues me. He could definitely claw into that top 2 or 3. Best might be still to come. For his sake and legacy I hope he wins a cup or 2 or 3. Might as well wish it's with the Flames as a Flames fan haha.

 

[Mrb1p]

No he wont? Hes not even on track to crack the top 5 right now.

 

[markymarc1215]

99% of these types of threads are made by people who never witnessed Gretzky or Mario play in the NHL, certainly not in the 80s and early 90s when they were putting up 2.5 points per game. McDavid is a special talent but he has a long way to go and at least 1 Cup to win before we even place him in the top 10.

 

[Video Nasty]

Sad how close minded some are. Of course it’s possible.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

99% of these types of threads are made by people who never witnessed Gretzky or Mario play in the NHL, certainly not in the 80s and early 90s when they were putting up 2.5 points per game. McDavid is a special talent but he has a long way to go and at least 1 Cup to win before we even place him in the top 10.

I wonder how many people put Howe before Mcdavid who’ve never watched him?

 

[Thallis]

Crosby was the perfect player for his era. McDavid is so good he ushered in a new one. McDavid is clearly ahead at this point in his career imo.

 

[Garbageyuk]

He might end up 1st if he passes/gets close to Gretzky in Rosses/Harts/Lindsay

But the best and greatest player to play the sport of hockey is Mario Lemieux

The 2001 season is for me his most amazing. 76 pts in 43 games in the dead puck era coming off three years of being retired. He was better than 2023 Mcdavid by a significant margin

Mcdavid would be Draisaitl to Lemieux

Absolutely goofy post.

 

[GMR]

He’s done enough for me to bump Toews from the top 100.

 

[cupface52]

McDavid has never had anyone on par with Ovi and Malkin in his class. Those 3 guys had to contend with each other for those trophies, McDavid has less competition for his awards.

Here were the top producers in McDavid's Art Ross wins:

2016-2017: McDavid (100 points), Crosby (89 points), Kane (89 points)
2017-2018: McDavid (108 points), Giroux (102 points), Kucherov (100 points)
2020-2021: McDavid (105 points), Draisaitl (84 points), Marchand (69 points)
2021-2022: McDavid (122 points), Gaudreau (115 points), Huberdeau (115 points)

None of those guys even remotely compare to prime Malkin and Ovi. No one in the current NHL beyond McDavid is on par with prime Ovi and Malkin IMO.

Crosby lost out on the Art Ross once because of those two, he lost the Art Ross to Henrik Sedin, and he also
came behind Benn and Tavares in his prime at 27!

From '09-'17 Malkin only once played more than 70 games, and he won the Art Ross, in a year that Crosby was out for the vast majority of the season, hardly call that competing for awards with him.

Draisaitl and Kucherov are for sure on that level, I would also put Mackinnon in that group, but he's always missing 10-20 games a year, so he's often forgotten as being among the elite of the elite players. McDavid is just on a level above them all and is extremely consistent.

Since '17-'18, which is 6 years, when Mack and Kucherov both broke out, while Drai didnt until the next year.

McDavid	1.58
Kucherov	1.39
Draisaitl	1.33
MacKinnon	1.33
Marchard	1.21

From '07-'13, I'm picking Malkin's best 6 year stretch

Crosby	1.43
Malkin	1.27
Ovechkin	1.23
St. Louis	1.08

Many put Howe as #2, which is the only way McDavid could end up as second greatest. If you're the type that can put Howe above Lemieux/Orr, you would be able to put McDavid above them as well. Orr/Lemieux were far too dominant against their peers for McDavid to pass them imo.

Howe played in a Canadian talent league, while McDavid plays in an international talent league, the only fair way to compare them is by comparing McDavid to his Canadian peers, which would put him on his way to win his 7th straight Art Ross, likely his 5th or 6th Hart and 6th or 7th Lindsay.

 

[authentic]

Crosby lost out on the Art Ross once because of those two, he lost the Art Ross to Henrik Sedin, and he also
came behind Benn and Tavares in his prime at 27!

From '09-'17 Malkin only once played more than 70 games, and he won the Art Ross, in a year that Crosby was out for the vast majority of the season, hardly call that competing for awards with him.

Draisaitl and Kucherov are for sure on that level, I would also put Mackinnon in that group, but he's always missing 10-20 games a year, so he's often forgotten as being among the elite of the elite players. McDavid is just on a level above them all and is extremely consistent.

Since '17-'18, which is 6 years, when Mack and Kucherov both broke out, while Drai didnt until the next year.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]McDavid[/TD]
[TD]1.58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kucherov[/TD]
[TD]1.39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Draisaitl[/TD]
[TD]1.33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MacKinnon[/TD]
[TD]1.33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Marchard[/TD]
[TD]1.21[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

From '07-'13, I'm picking Malkin's best 6 year stretch

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Crosby[/TD]
[TD]1.43[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[TD]1.27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]1.23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]St. Louis[/TD]
[TD]1.08[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]




Many put Howe as #2, which is the only way McDavid could end up as second greatest. If you're the type that can put Howe above Lemieux/Orr, you would be able to put McDavid above them as well. Orr/Lemieux were far too dominant against their peers for McDavid to pass them imo.

Howe played in a Canadian talent league, while McDavid plays in an international talent league, the only fair way to compare them is by comparing McDavid to his Canadian peers, which would put him on his way to win his 7th straight Art Ross, likely his 5th or 6th Hart and 6th or 7th Lindsay.

Crosby wasn't in his prime at 27 because he had a wrist injury that never fully healed until last season. Clearly it impacted his play pretty badly in his late 20s because his production dropped off a cliff right after it happened.

 

[TLEH]

I've always wondered if these arguments are who was way better than their peers or who is the best hockey player? Because McDavid is the best hockey player ever. You're talking about some eras where guys smoked cigarettes in the locker room. Goalies didn't even put their pads on the ice. Watching old hockey highlights is ridiculously boring.

He doesn't have the largest margin between him and the league compared to like Gretz and Howe but he is doing what he is doing when the entire league is insanely good. Better than its ever been by a mile.

 

[snag]

I've always wondered if these arguments are who was way better than their peers or who is the best hockey player? Because McDavid is the best hockey player ever. You're talking about some eras where guys smoked cigarettes in the locker room. Goalies didn't even put their pads on the ice. Watching old hockey highlights is ridiculously boring.

He doesn't have the largest margin between him and the league compared to like Gretz and Howe but he is doing what he is doing when the entire league is insanely good. Better than its ever been by a mile.

Then you get the arguments of Cups.....when guys we are comparing to were winning them with far fewer teams in the league.

I look at these discussions and laugh as they are so totally flawed.

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

I've always wondered if these arguments are who was way better than their peers or who is the best hockey player? Because McDavid is the best hockey player ever. You're talking about some eras where guys smoked cigarettes in the locker room. Goalies didn't even put their pads on the ice. Watching old hockey highlights is ridiculously boring.

He doesn't have the largest margin between him and the league compared to like Gretz and Howe but he is doing what he is doing when the entire league is insanely good. Better than its ever been by a mile.

Players in that era were literally mugged all game long, it was a far more physical game. No guarantees McDavid would perform as well in that type of hockey where he would be continuously slashed and hooked all the time.
Point is, you can't really compare players from different eras, you can only compare the players to their contemporaries.
Just an opinion but if Mario Lemieux played nowadays with the same physical shape he had back in the day, he would still be a better player than McDavid is right now.